Looking to the year ahead.

[Spike]

We'll probably never know for sure, but my guess is that McNair and company tried to trade Fox for Sabonis and were rebuffed.

Maybe. But Monte seems like a guy who has a plan and will stick with it. If he dangles Fox, he won't stop until he gets something in return. He was indeed showcasing Hali, and the draft also proves he's willing to stick to his guns in order to make a move. In either scenario, it's likely that he wasn't trading Fox, or moving down in the draft, unless it was a godfather offer, not the other way around.

But, you're right, we'll never know. All we can go by are the results. Fox is on this team, Haliburton isn't. Murray is on this team, #6 + Duarte isn't.

 

[Spike]

This is pretty funny: " it gets easy to find confirmation of bias in everything."
This too: "you rarely argue in good faith"
When you assume this to get to the above: "If it must be the Process/the Presti method"

Move along, dude. Just put me on block, because you, sir, are arguing in bad faith.

No, it's actually a cogent argument.

If you're assuming that "the process" must be used, then you're coming from a lens that every move must be done with the intent of maximizing assets. The moves made by management are not at all about maximizing assets, but rather creating a winning team around Fox and Sabonis. None of the moves made were about maximizing assets, but about building around Fox and the Ox.

OKC is throwing spaghetti to see what sticks. It's a draftnik's wet dream, but doesn't really do much other than dangle shiny new toys year after year to a fanbase that can't help but be mesmerized. For all the drooling over new rookies year in and year out, Philly has not sniffed the Finals. Who has? Teams who have decided to build around their talent.

Rightly or wrongly, management has decided to build around Fox. They brought in an all-star talent in the post. They drafted and signed complementary pieces, and brought in a coach with a championship pedigree who emphasizes defense. Said coach also knows this is probably his last shot to prove he's a winner, and all of the assistants coming in are here to develop players.

For the first time, everyone from the top to the bottom seems to be on the same page. I feel energized, and I'm sorry others can't see the forest for the trees right now.

 

[kb02]

No, it's actually a cogent argument.

If you're assuming that "the process" must be used, then you're coming from a lens that every move must be done with the intent of maximizing assets. The moves made by management are not at all about maximizing assets, but rather creating a winning team around Fox and Sabonis. None of the moves made were about maximizing assets, but about building around Fox and the Ox.

OKC is throwing spaghetti to see what sticks. It's a draftnik's wet dream, but doesn't really do much other than dangle shiny new toys year after year to a fanbase that can't help but be mesmerized. For all the drooling over new rookies year in and year out, Philly has not sniffed the Finals. Who has? Teams who have decided to build around their talent.

Rightly or wrongly, management has decided to build around Fox. They brought in an all-star talent in the post. They drafted and signed complementary pieces, and brought in a coach with a championship pedigree who emphasizes defense. Said coach also knows this is probably his last shot to prove he's a winner, and all of the assistants coming in are here to develop players.

For the first time, everyone from the top to the bottom seems to be on the same page. I feel energized, and I'm sorry others can't see the forest for the trees right now.

When did Sam Presti become the process?

 

[Spike]

When did Sam Presti become the process?

So, the rest of the argument is sound?

Regardless of whether it's Hinkie, Colangelo, Prestige, or Uncle Phil, we all know what "the process" looks like. OKC is doing exactly what Philly did, and you're being obtuse if you're trying to argue otherwise.

 

[kb02]

So, the rest of the argument is sound?

Regardless of whether it's Hinkie, Colangelo, Prestige, or Uncle Phil, we all know what "the process" looks like. OKC is doing exactly what Philly did, and you're being obtuse if you're trying to argue otherwise.

Can you show me where I've said I preferred the Sam Presti Process? Or that I would trade an unprotected FRP to swap the Sam Presti process for McNair?

It's the person, dude. There is no process or system or philosophy to be anchored to. Both you and Padrino are arguing in bad faith when your entire argument is based on assuming that I want a certain process/philosophy. No. I want an A-level exec not a middling exec.

 

[ESP47]

If Huerter is the starter you want Monk for sure. While I'm not totally sold on Monte committing this deeply to a specific roster build to win now, he literally built about as perfect a need team on offense for his two stars as you can build.

Yeah everything looks good on offense but it's the defense that is worrisome. There's a serious lack of balance on this roster. Davion should be a plus defender. Barnes, Holmes and Murray hopefully somewhere around average. Basically everyone else that should get playing time are all various levels of below average. Some will have to play somewhat out of position, which will make their defense even worse.

We'll see what happens. It could potentially lead to more wins and it could potentially just be treading water. Running the roster back with one added rookie wasn't going to cut it so I don't have a huge problem with the roster shake up. Would have been nice to just have it a little more balanced and I think DDV added quite a bit to that balance.

 

[Spike]

Or that I would trade an unprotected FRP to swap the Sam Presti process for McNair?

Does this count?

 

[kb02]

Does this count?
View attachment 11134

If you can't differentiate a person from a process, I can't help you.

 

[Spike]

If you can't differentiate a person from a process, I can't help you.

You can honestly look at the teams OKC has been fielding and say that Presti isn't doing what Philly did?

 

[Capt. Factorial]

If you can't differentiate a person from a process, I can't help you.

Now THAT is a bad faith argument.

Folks, you can return to the previous discussion in this thread, whatever it was. This sidebar is over.

 

[sactowndog]

I'm basing that on his agent publicly crapping on the team and his role last year. Seems obvious to me that those comments represent Ddv and him not wanting to be here. Can't blame him, coming from a championship Bucks team to lowly Sacramento.

If the Kings and Ddv had a future together, the minimum starting point was 3 years x 7mil QO. My belief is the Ddv/Kings trial run was over at the end of last year. Makes sense for him to go to GS and be a guy off the bench. Good role for him and hunting for jewelry with Steph and Klay.

the qualifying offer is for 1 year and DDV would have taken it then likely left. Monte let him go because he had to. A poor trade but Monte’s hand was forced.

Monte has done a poor job managing assets and I’m not a Monte fan but we shall see what happens. This team could be good offensively.

Defensively they are likely to be awful. We needed Murray to be a defensive stopper and he has gotten blown by in summer league. A top six of Sabonis, Murray, Barnes, Huerter, Fox and Monk better play zone. Games will be fun but we may struggle to win 35.

 

[sactowndog]

I think DDV was only available to at that price because his market dried up in a hurry. He was one of the last servicable SG available. If we gave 9.5M to Monk, we could have found the money to keep him if we wanted. Clearly the separation was a mutually acceptable decision. I still think having him on the team would make it more balanced than monk and Huerter, but overall this team is better than last year.

With Brown's calling card being defense but never really putting a spectacular offense together, maybe the thought was to put a roster together which can spontaneously provide a crutch to the coach's weak areas (offense) while allowing the coach to develop the roster in its weakest areas (defense). Who knows... But if the offense lives up to its potential and the defense can be brought up to at least mid-level... Who is better and who is worse and who is in probably around the same level?

Definitely Better:
1. Phoenix (with or without Ayton, i think they are still a top 5 team).

2. Clippers with a healthy Kawhi and PG13 and having signed John Wall (despite having lost a step) they are probably top 3 in the West

3. GSW for sure unless 2 of Klay, Curry or Wiggins get injured then they are a play in team for sure.

4. Memphis: probably a little worse defensively and depth wise than last year.

5. Denver: if Murray and porter are healthy and give you even 80% of what they did before injury (Murray may need more time than porter), they should be top 5.

6. Pelicans with a full season with CJ Mccollum, Ingraham and Valanciunas alone they should be a top 6 team. But with Herb Jones' internal growth and returning Zion (for even 50 games), they should be a top 5-6 team.

Next Tier (Probably Better)
7. Portland: internal development of Simmons and returning Dame alone should put them in contention for a play in spot. But adding Grant (if he gets that he is a 3rd offensive option and is content being the defensive stopper he can be and still capable of giving 16-18ppg) should be better than the Kings.

8. Minnesota: Keeps KAT, ANT, DLo and adds Gobert. They lose some perimeter defense with the loss of Vanderbilt and Beverly, and some perimeter offense with Beasley, but overall with DLo and and Gobert they should still have a reasonable defense, and with Beasley gone DLo may be more featured in the offense as he will have to shoulder more of the burden. Plus if they bring back Prince they can move ANT to the 2 and Prince to the 3 to help shore up some perimeter defense. Should still be a play-in team but from the 8.

Fighting for play-in:
9. Dallas: i think losing brunsen will hurt a lot. I dont think Hardy will make up for it but crazier things have happened. Is it enough to drop them this far depends on Luka being superman (possible) Hardy and Hardaway. Dinwiddie is as good as he will get imho (14-16ppg). Im not sure this team has enough fire power.

10. Kings: SHOULD be squarely in the running for the 10th spot (play in). Could go as high as 8.if everything falls their way but i could easily see them being jumped by lakers and OKC if they KANGZ the bed. If they do...they should firesale the whole team and sell everyone off for FRPs (2-3 for Fox and Sabonis each. 1 for Barnes, maybe 1 for Holmes if the partner team really needs him) . Reset with Mitchell, Huerter, Murray and multiple 1sts (not a truly bad reset spot.

11. Lakers unless the move Westbrook for Kyrie and they all remember how to defend im not sure they have anything left. Then again, they have enough talent to be a top 5 team in their top 3 players. So who knows which team shows up...

Outside looking in:
12. OKC: They are my dark horse though. Until i see how Holmgren, Giddey and SGA are together, im not sure this team couldnt surprise a number of other teams and over perform. I really think if he stays healthy, Holmgen will be the best in this years draft. He is the rebirth of Dirk Nowitzki in the body of White Manute Bol. I think this team will be very good in 2 years if Holmgren stays healthy.

13. Rockets: they are going for all firepower but zero defense

14. Jazz: no defense on the perimeter or inside. They have a Bogi and a Spider and nothing else.

15. Spurs (the new OKC).

the problem is even if we make the play-offs over Dallas and Lakers I don’t think we make the play-offs against any of the top 8. All we do is worsen our odds for Victor which is classic Vivek.

if the team had traded 4 and Holmes for 5 and Grant ….. we would have had the defensive stopper we needed. But I suspect Monte over played his hand again and held out for Bey and got nothing.

 

[sactowndog]

Yeah everything looks good on offense but it's the defense that is worrisome. There's a serious lack of balance on this roster. Davion should be a plus defender. Barnes, Holmes and Murray hopefully somewhere around average. Basically everyone else that should get playing time are all various levels of below average. Some will have to play somewhat out of position, which will make their defense even worse.

We'll see what happens. It could potentially lead to more wins and it could potentially just be treading water. Running the roster back with one added rookie wasn't going to cut it so I don't have a huge problem with the roster shake up. Would have been nice to just have it a little more balanced and I think DDV added quite a bit to that balance.

Murray looks good on offense but has suffered multiple blow by’s on defense. For next year he is likely to be below average.

not a single Kings player on the defensive dashboard hold opponents below their average in scoring. Sabonis is the only one below a positive 1.5. It’s hard to fathom how bad on defense this team could be.

 

[cwebb2002]

You can honestly look at the teams OKC has been fielding and say that Presti isn't doing what Philly did?

Whatever OKC is doing, with a young core of SGA, Giddey, and Holmgren, i think they are off to a very good start. I think there is a possibility that they will be back to the playoffs before us.

 

[hrdboild]

Whatever OKC is doing, with a young core of SGA, Giddey, and Holmgren, i think they are off to a very good start. I think there is a possibility that they will be back to the playoffs before us.

Ha! I'll believe it when I see it. I think that might be the worst basketball team in the league, even with the three guys you mentioned and they have no identity right now other than losing on purpose and hoping the lottery smiles on them. SGA is about a year away from demanding a trade which will make it the Holmgren and Giddey show. Presti is overrated. He deserves some credit for drafting Durant, Westbrook, and Harden but he couldn't keep them together for more than 3 years, His team building credentials lag way behind his draft resume.

 

[sactowndog]

Sabonis .8 , 110.1
Huerter 2.0 , 112.5
Barnes 2.2 , 116.7
Monk 2.6 , 112.9
Lyles 2.9 , 113.6
Mitchell 4.0 , 111.3
Fox 4.1 , 116.5

damn not a single player who holds opponents below their scoring average or below a 110 defensive advanced stats rating. Given what we have seen from Murray in Summer League this team could be historically bad on defense.

I’m not sure they even make the play-in……. I knew it was bad but not G-League bad.

 

[sactowndog]

Ha! I'll believe it when I see it. I think that might be the worst basketball team in the league, even with the three guys you mentioned and they have no identity right now other than losing on purpose and hoping the lottery smiles on them. SGA is about a year away from demanding a trade which will make it the Holmgren and Giddey show. Presti is overrated. He deserves some credit for drafting Durant, Westbrook, and Harden but he couldn't keep them together for more than 3 years, His team building credentials lag way behind his draft resume.

I don’t know…. From what I just saw of our defensive rating … I’m not certain we beat OKC this year…..

 

[cwebb2002]

the problem is even if we make the play-offs over Dallas and Lakers I don’t think we make the play-offs against any of the top 8. All we do is worsen our odds for Victor which is classic Vivek.

if the team had traded 4 and Holmes for 5 and Grant ….. we would have had the defensive stopper we needed. But I suspect Monte over played his hand again and held out for Bey and got nothing.

Agreed with the firsy paragraph. And, im not 100% convinces the young bloods in OKC wont be better than us in a year or 2 provided chet stays healthy.

As for the second part... Im not sure such a trade was ever on the table actually. The pistons seemed to not want or need to deal with the Kings. They don't really need Holmes, and they were happy to take Ivey OR Murray from what I read. Both filled a need for them and both were players they were high on. As such, they had no reason to take back holmes for Grant when they could move grant for a future pick AND NOT take back any money. The second they said they would take Ivey or Murray (whichever was available), game was up. As for trading down to flip with Pacers... That would have been even worse, because they were talking about trading up specifically to get Murray. The kings would have had to take Mathurin, who, while good, in my opinion, will not be at the level of the players above him let alone the other players taken behind him. So despite the Kings thinking their pick was of value to others, moving it for the potential of taking Murray down lower would have been a disaster for them. The only thing they could do was to take Murray or Ivey. Frankly, im very happy with Murray.

Honestly, im of the opinion that you give this squad 40 games. Then, if you are not in a spot to legit compete for a top 8, you blow it up. Legit blow it up. Sell Fox, Sabonis, Barnes, and Holmes for developing young players with up side, along with as many first rounders as possible. Follow the Ainge model. He blew up the celtics as their championship core was aging, and missed the playlffs the following year with 28 wins. The 2nd year his brand new young buck celtics squad won 40 games (40/42) and was back in the playoffs. That is different than the "process" in Philly because the didnt have the beavy of FRP crunched into 3 drafts, that Boston got, so it took longer. I trust Monte in 1 area so far. He drafts well. Hali, Mitchell and Murray are all studs. Despite murray getting beat by faster players (bigs tend to have that issue but if there is a player after mitchell on this squad that will work his ass off to fix it, its murray). But if they arent in legit 7/8 range by game 40, blow it up and keep Murray, Mitchell and possibly Huerter and start the rest over (not that huerter will be untouchable, but at 14M/yr, will be harder to move) .

 

[sactowndog]

Agreed with the firsy paragraph. And, im not 100% convinces the young bloods in OKC wont be better than us in a year or 2 provided chet stays healthy.

As for the second part... Im not sure such a trade was ever on the table actually. The pistons seemed to not want or need to deal with the Kings. They don't really need Holmes, and they were happy to take Ivey OR Murray from what I read. Both filled a need for them and both were players they were high on. As such, they had no reason to take back holmes for Grant when they could move grant for a future pick AND NOT take back any money. The second they said they would take Ivey or Murray (whichever was available), game was up. As for trading down to flip with Pacers... That would have been even worse, because they were talking about trading up specifically to get Murray. The kings would have had to take Mathurin, who, while good, in my opinion, will not be at the level of the players above him let alone the other players taken behind him. So despite the Kings thinking their pick was of value to others, moving it for the potential of taking Murray down lower would have been a disaster for them. The only thing they could do was to take Murray or Ivey. Frankly, im very happy with Murray.

Honestly, im of the opinion that you give this squad 40 games. Then, if you are not in a spot to legit compete for a top 8, you blow it up. Legit blow it up. Sell Fox, Sabonis, Barnes, and Holmes for developing young players with up side, along with as many first rounders as possible. Follow the Ainge model. He blew up the celtics as their championship core was aging, and missed the playlffs the following year with 28 wins. The 2nd year his brand new young buck celtics squad won 40 games (40/42) and was back in the playoffs. That is different than the "process" in Philly because the didnt have the beavy of FRP crunched into 3 drafts, that Boston got, so it took longer. I trust Monte in 1 area so far. He drafts well. Hali, Mitchell and Murray are all studs. Despite murray getting beat by faster players (bigs tend to have that issue but if there is a player after mitchell on this squad that will work his ass off to fix it, its murray). But if they arent in legit 7/8 range by game 40, blow it up and keep Murray, Mitchell and possibly Huerter and start the rest over (not that huerter will be untradable but at 14M/yr, will be harder to move.

yeah if we can. I think many of our contracts are considered negative.

oh and I don’t know if the Grant trade was available but it would have been what I targeted. Our team needs a defensive stopper badly.

 

[hrdboild]

I don’t know…. From what I just saw of our defensive rating … I’m not certain we beat OKC this year…..

If numbers meant everything the Lakers would be NBA champs this year instead of chumps who couldn't even make the play-in. We've never seen this group of players together with this coach. Defensive ratings will tell you a little about a player but they tell you more about team performance. You should at least look at more than one year and get an average. I'll go on record right now and say that there's no chance this team replaces Marvin Bagley with Keegan Murray and Luke Walton/Alvin Gentry with Mike Brown and gets worse on defense. No chance.

 

[Tetsujin]

I mean, if defensive ratings from last season are the only criteria we're going off of, Jerami and Kings Tristan Thompson are equivalent defenders sooooo

 

[cwebb2002]

yeah if we can. I think many of our contracts are considered negative.

I think that is no longer true. Fox may be a tougher pill for others to swallow but compared to giving 25M to anfernee Simmons or 28M to Jaylen Brunson, Fox's contract is no longer the albatross others may have around their necks. Additionally, many teams would likely give 1-2 FRP to get Fox, especially if they get our end or 2022 season Fox (23/6.6 shooting 37% from 3pt over last 20 games). Sabonis is on an amazing contract for his production, barnes is on a good contract and is expiring. So i think you could get at least 4-5 FRP out of that group.

 

[sactowndog]

If numbers meant everything the Lakers would be NBA champs this year instead of chumps who couldn't even make the play-in. We've never seen this group of players together with this coach. Defensive ratings will tell you a little about a player but they tell you more about team performance. You should at least look at more than one year and get an average. I'll go on record right now and say that there's no chance this team replaces Marvin Bagley with Keegan Murray and Luke Walton/Alvin Gentry with Mike Brown and gets worse on defense. No chance.

i might be willing to take that bet

 

[Tetsujin]

I think that is no longer true. Fox may be a tougher pill for others to swallow but compared to giving 25M to anfernee Simmons or 28M to Jaylen Brunson, Fox's contract is no longer the albatross others may have around their necks. Additionally, many teams would likely give 1-2 FRP to get Fox, especially if they get our end or 2022 season Fox (23/6.6 shooting 37% from 3pt over last 20 games). Sabonis is on an amazing contract for his production, barnes is on a good contract and is expiring. So i think you could get at least 4-5 FRP out of that group.

Plus if we're blowing things up after 40 games (which I don't think happens), we probably aren't going to be moving our picks to Atlanta.

 

[Tetsujin]

i might be willing to take that bet

We were literally the 3rd worst defense in the league last year so you might want to take that back before someone takes you up on it.

 

[sactowndog]

I think that is no longer true. Fox may be a tougher pill for others to swallow but compared to giving 25M to anfernee Simmons or 28M to Jaylen Brunson, Fox's contract is no longer the albatross others may have around their necks. Additionally, many teams would likely give 1-2 FRP to get Fox, especially if they get our end or 2022 season Fox (23/6.6 shooting 37% from 3pt over last 20 games). Sabonis is on an amazing contract for his production, barnes is on a good contract and is expiring. So i think you could get at least 4-5 FRP out of that group.

Barnes yes

Sabonis is a good offensive player but many teams want a defensive oriented center and he is not that.

Fox’s defense and outside shooting is the question mark with him. Right now he is considered a negative contract.

 

[sactowndog]

We were literally the 3rd worst defense in the league last year so you might want to take that back before someone takes you up on it.

I am well aware of our defense last year. Yes we could be worse this year. No Lamb, Harkless, Holiday or Jones. Worse is a distinct possibility. I actually hope we resign Josh Jackson because he can play some defense.

 

[Livinthedream]

If the whole team is bad on defense, that's a scheme/coaching issue. Barnes defensive rating didn't go over 110 until he left the Warriors. It took another massive dive when he got to the Kings.

Can't point to any one individual player and say he ruined the defense. It's a team issue. From the coach all the way down.

I fully expect a change in the defense from everyone with Mike Brown as coach.

 

[cwebb2002]

If numbers meant everything the Lakers would be NBA champs this year instead of chumps who couldn't even make the play-in. We've never seen this group of players together with this coach. Defensive ratings will tell you a little about a player but they tell you more about team performance. You should at least look at more than one year and get an average. I'll go on record right now and say that there's no chance this team replaces Marvin Bagley with Keegan Murray and Luke Walton/Alvin Gentry with Mike Brown and gets worse on defense. No chance.

Hope you are right, but what logically is your assessment of where they are in the scheme of the rest of the west. I think as it stands in the west, there are a minimum of 7 teams likely better than the kings. Of those that are not definitively better, the lakers have the star power to suddenly wake uo and ***** slap the entire league should Russell dislodge his head from his rectum and AD gets that heart he has been asking the Wizard of Oz for. Dallas just went to. The WCF so while i think theyay be play in bound, im not sure i think Brunson is the difference fr. A 9/10 seed and a 5 seed (ie the may not be significantly worse than last year).

 

[Tetsujin]

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