Letting Rondo walk

[kingsfan1984]

Seriously? The proof is in the pudding? We had two players on our roster this year who've ever won an NBA championship and only one of them was a starter on that team and averaged 30+ minutes per game. If the proof is in the pudding for you, how do you explain that Rajon Rondo has played in 94 playoff games in his career and was the starting PG in every single one of them? Oh that's right, he played with 3 hall of famers who made him look good right?.

Yes i explain it by he played with 3 Hall of Famers!!! You say that like its nothing but an old argument. How many playoff games did Rondo win without those worthless Hall of Famers?
You misunderstand my point. Rondo is unique. He fit with those 3 guys. None were guys whose games benifit from spacing like a Cuz and Gay. In Boston, Rondo benifitted from the spacing tjose guys created. It was a great fit. Trouble is i dont think he is adaptable to many different types of syatems and players. I dont think it is a "bullheadedness" just a fact about his game and skillset. The other thing about Boston Rondo pre injury was his intensity, eapecially on the Defensive side of the ball. You saying you see that same intensity from him? And how much is his shooting % skewed compared to the guys you listed because Rondo is often WIDE open taking those shots. I imagine many of the players numbers with lower fg% would enjoy the spacing Rondo enjoys....and why does he have so much space? Because Defender is ignoring him to double Cuz Gay or pressure anyone nearby.

Half in Jest here, in light of all Rondos and Belinillies championship experience, with the way it is put on a high pediatal, that it is surprising team struggled so often to start games, start the 3rd, and finish games....i would expect that the chamionship bloodline/aura that seems to be so valuable to some ppl to translate more to success on the court.

 

[hrdboild]

Get out of here with the "reduce everything down to numbers to remove all "human error"/"critical thinking" from statistical analysis", I said myself that looking at shot charts are a very important part of player analysis- but what the **** does it have to do with FG%?

I call a shooter a player who's efficient at shooting, I know it's a radical thought but if a guy makes 50% from 3 he's a better shooter than a guy shooting 51% from 2.
Going by your definition of shooter the best shooters in the league are: DeAndre Jordan, Dwight Howard and Hassan Whiteside.
Going by mine (and almost everyone else) it's: Curry, Durant and Redick.
Who of this 2 groups are we usually calling shooters?

The number of missed shots is meaningless (especially since you not only made the claim one is a better shooter because of it you also judged our team offense efficiency with it), FG% doesn't tell you how many 3p shoots a player took- 3pA tell you that.
eFG% is just like FG% only it accounts for 3pt shots being worth (wait for it...) 3 points! which again, is a thing that exists- you keep complaining about other stats being abstract (and it's really don't) but FG% is the most abstract there is- it doesn't care if you took a hundred threes or just took lobs.

Again just to clarify (and you will probably use it anyway)- the numbers of 3's you took are important, shot charts are extremely important- that got nothing to do with using FG% to argue about who is a better shooter or how a team is doing on offense.



Well since 85.3% of his unassited shots were at the rim than the question still stands...

Welp, I'm done.

 

[kingsfan1984]

From Belinelis interview, he stated more or less that team ball wasnt being played on offense and one thing that was certain was if the ball left his hands he knew it wouldnt come back.

How much of this is on Rondo and Rondo's (maybe for the best) insistance on passing to Cuz, who then would usually look to score? Ultimately Karl is to blam here, but Rondo knows the game and the effect of icing out teammates.

The follow to this is obviously Ben experienced the same treatment, and for a player who lacks the ball handling skill as Ben does, i would assume his game would suffer even more than Belineli which is the point of this post. Assuming Rondo leaves and a passing ball movement offense is put in, would you expect Ben to have a vastly improved season if you were to speculate?

 

[Livinthedream]

From Belinelis interview, he stated more or less that team ball wasnt being played on offense and one thing that was certain was if the ball left his hands he knew it wouldnt come back.

How much of this is on Rondo and Rondo's (maybe for the best) insistance on passing to Cuz, who then would usually look to score? Ultimately Karl is to blam here, but Rondo knows the game and the effect of icing out teammates.

The follow to this is obviously Ben experienced the same treatment, and for a player who lacks the ball handling skill as Ben does, i would assume his game would suffer even more than Belineli which is the point of this post. Assuming Rondo leaves and a passing ball movement offense is put in, would you expect Ben to have a vastly improved season if you were to speculate?

I have abstained from the Ben conversations recently but I'll bite.

Ben's productivity increased when IT left and dipped when Rondo came. The common thread is that IT and Rondo held onto the ball a long time and if they did give it up, it was usually to Cousins and Gay.

Difference with Belli is that he played on the second unit and was asked to score, which he did not do well with it. Both would benefit from an offense that focused on getting the ball to the open man vs getting a certain man open to feed him the ball.

 

[Telemachus]

From Belinelis interview, he stated more or less that team ball wasnt being played on offense and one thing that was certain was if the ball left his hands he knew it wouldnt come back.

How much of this is on Rondo and Rondo's (maybe for the best) insistance on passing to Cuz, who then would usually look to score? Ultimately Karl is to blam here, but Rondo knows the game and the effect of icing out teammates.

The follow to this is obviously Ben experienced the same treatment, and for a player who lacks the ball handling skill as Ben does, i would assume his game would suffer even more than Belineli which is the point of this post. Assuming Rondo leaves and a passing ball movement offense is put in, would you expect Ben to have a vastly improved season if you were to speculate?

What doesn't make sense here to me is that Marco was the center of the offense much of the time he was on the floor. If he was talking about Ben, I would agree, but the same wasn't true for him.

 

[IfAt1st]

For the record, I think that Rondo was consciously playing bad defense much of the time that people are remembering - in other words, that mental vision people have of him slacking off his man and letting him blow past him, was when he wasn't interested in playing good defense.

Simply put, I think he can play better defense when he wants to.

There were 2 people on the Kings last year who could turn up their intensity and performance level when the game got tight, and it was Rondo and Cousins.
I remember many times when the game was on the line, and the team was getting tight, that Rondo made a play, usually by driving past his man and surprising them with the layup or set-up assist.

If anyone thinks that Collison is a guy who can play well when the chips are on the line, in the 4th quarter when everything gets tougher.... well, they obviously didn't watch last year.
I have ZERO faith that Collison wouldn;t choke like he did so many times this year (pretty spectacularly, actually).

I feel much more comfortable with a guy like Rondo, who has proven his toughness and ability to LEAD when the games get serious (playoff intensity).
This team is mentally weak.
I hate to admit that, because it is kinda embarrassing.
But if we as a fanbase overlook and demonize the one guy who epitomizes mental intensity and leading the team as a general on the floor to go to war with.... well, then I don;t know if we know what our team is lacking in.

 

[peacelate]

For the record, I think that Rondo was consciously playing bad defense much of the time that people are remembering - in other words, that mental vision people have of him slacking off his man and letting him blow past him, was when he wasn't interested in playing good defense.

Simply put, I think he can play better defense when he wants to.

There were 2 people on the Kings last year who could turn up their intensity and performance level when the game got tight, and it was Rondo and Cousins.
I remember many times when the game was on the line, and the team was getting tight, that Rondo made a play, usually by driving past his man and surprising them with the layup or set-up assist.

If anyone thinks that Collison is a guy who can play well when the chips are on the line, in the 4th quarter when everything gets tougher.... well, they obviously didn't watch last year.
I have ZERO faith that Collison wouldn;t choke like he did so many times this year (pretty spectacularly, actually).

I feel much more comfortable with a guy like Rondo, who has proven his toughness and ability to LEAD when the games get serious (playoff intensity).
This team is mentally weak.
I hate to admit that, because it is kinda embarrassing.
But if we as a fanbase overlook and demonize the one guy who epitomizes mental intensity and leading the team as a general on the floor to go to war with.... well, then I don;t know if we know what our team is lacking in.

You say Rondo plays defense when he wants to. That's a bad thing because even when there weren't any perimeter defenders to hide Rondo on defense, he still refused to play defense. If he didn't want to play defense under Carlisle or Stevens, what makes you think he'll play defense under Joerger? Do you think he'll wake up tomorrow and realize, "Hey I'm playing with my best friend. I'd better start trying on defense!"

 

[bajaden]

From Belinelis interview, he stated more or less that team ball wasnt being played on offense and one thing that was certain was if the ball left his hands he knew it wouldnt come back.

How much of this is on Rondo and Rondo's (maybe for the best) insistance on passing to Cuz, who then would usually look to score? Ultimately Karl is to blam here, but Rondo knows the game and the effect of icing out teammates.

The follow to this is obviously Ben experienced the same treatment, and for a player who lacks the ball handling skill as Ben does, i would assume his game would suffer even more than Belineli which is the point of this post. Assuming Rondo leaves and a passing ball movement offense is put in, would you expect Ben to have a vastly improved season if you were to speculate?

That's a hard question to answer. In regards to Ben that is. You don't have to be a good passer to move the ball. You do have to be a good passer to create opportunities for others. So Ben would be a better player if he didn't have to create his own shot, and all he had to do as far as passing the ball, was move the ball within the team concept. Now whether that improvement is enough to warrant keeping him on the team is another story. First, he'll have to start hitting his open shots consistently. Shooting 50% one game and 25% the next isn't going to cut it.

Personally, I'm ready to cut bait with Ben. He may well turn out to be a decent to good player, but I'd rather someone else take on the job of developing him. We can make up all the excuses we want, but at the end of the day, it's up to the player to improve. Ben has had his chances and hasn't taken advantage of them. Time to move on.

 

[hrdboild]

That's a hard question to answer. In regards to Ben that is. You don't have to be a good passer to move the ball. You do have to be a good passer to create opportunities for others. So Ben would be a better player if he didn't have to create his own shot, and all he had to do as far as passing the ball, was move the ball within the team concept. Now whether that improvement is enough to warrant keeping him on the team is another story. First, he'll have to start hitting his open shots consistently. Shooting 50% one game and 25% the next isn't going to cut it.

Personally, I'm ready to cut bait with Ben. He may well turn out to be a decent to good player, but I'd rather someone else take on the job of developing him. We can make up all the excuses we want, but at the end of the day, it's up to the player to improve. Ben has had his chances and hasn't taken advantage of them. Time to move on.

I agree with you on this one. I like Ben and I want to see him succeed, but this team doesn't seem like a good fit for him. He's had every opportunity to seize a starting spot and couldn't do it. We said the same thing about Omri before he got traded to Cleveland, but he needed to experience some other team situations and find his place in the league before he was ready to contribute as an every day player and the same may be true for Ben. I'm ready to move on and look for a steady veteran of some kind.

 

[kingsfan1984]

I agree with you on this one. I like Ben and I want to see him succeed, but this team doesn't seem like a good fit for him. He's had every opportunity to seize a starting spot and couldn't do it. We said the same thing about Omri before he got traded to Cleveland, but he needed to experience some other team situations and find his place in the league before he was ready to contribute as an every day player and the same may be true for Ben. I'm ready to move on and look for a steady veteran of some kind.

I would be perfectly fine if no Ben on team come next season...while im frankly sick of watching him disappear during games, i am curious if he would be passable if he was not forced to create for himself or others. Confidence has always been a big thing with him, and i wonder if he was only needed to move without ball, catch and shoot, or move the ball he would be much more comfortable that would lead to more confidence and a vastly improved Ben..an actual useful one.
While he has not been "asked" to be a creator, last year under Karl he was forced to play outside himself and try to create for himself in an attempt to earn minutes and i wouldnt be surprised to hear his agent telling him to do this as well to get some stuff on tape to show other teams. This lead to bad Ben plays, loss of more confidence, and no role within team concept to find a comfort zone. Downward spiral.

 

[Gilles]

For the record, I think that Rondo was consciously playing bad defense much of the time that people are remembering - in other words, that mental vision people have of him slacking off his man and letting him blow past him, was when he wasn't interested in playing good defense.

Simply put, I think he can play better defense when he wants to.

There were 2 people on the Kings last year who could turn up their intensity and performance level when the game got tight, and it was Rondo and Cousins.
I remember many times when the game was on the line, and the team was getting tight, that Rondo made a play, usually by driving past his man and surprising them with the layup or set-up assist.

If anyone thinks that Collison is a guy who can play well when the chips are on the line, in the 4th quarter when everything gets tougher.... well, they obviously didn't watch last year.
I have ZERO faith that Collison wouldn;t choke like he did so many times this year (pretty spectacularly, actually).

I feel much more comfortable with a guy like Rondo, who has proven his toughness and ability to LEAD when the games get serious (playoff intensity).
This team is mentally weak.
I hate to admit that, because it is kinda embarrassing.
But if we as a fanbase overlook and demonize the one guy who epitomizes mental intensity and leading the team as a general on the floor to go to war with.... well, then I don;t know if we know what our team is lacking in.

Yes, selective memory is a funny thing:
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/...TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Sac&sort=TM_TOV_PCT&dir=1
Both Rondo and Collison were not good enough in crunch time this year. Rondo took better care of the ball, but Collison scored more and with better efficiency, and team was equally bad.

 

[Livinthedream]

I agree with you on this one. I like Ben and I want to see him succeed, but this team doesn't seem like a good fit for him. He's had every opportunity to seize a starting spot and couldn't do it. We said the same thing about Omri before he got traded to Cleveland, but he needed to experience some other team situations and find his place in the league before he was ready to contribute as an every day player and the same may be true for Ben. I'm ready to move on and look for a steady veteran of some kind.

The argument still remains that veterans keep being brought in and none play better than Ben. You may be gun shy because you defended him in the past and he didn't improve this year, but the fact is, just about every player who has come to the Kings in the last 3 years has had issues with consistent play from year to year. I'll exclude Cuz and maybe Collison.

It may be time for Ben to move on for both sides sake, but we can't pretend like he had the table set for him and he blew it. It's pretty much the opposite. The franchise has kept him in situations that are detrimental to his growth.

Who has flourished in our organization? We could argue that Cousins emotional development has been stunted by playing for the Kings, and therefore he's not reaching his potential either.

You can't put someone in one of the most demanding/exclusive jobs in the world without any support or direction while the organization is in turmoil around them and say he was given every opportunity to succeed. This goes for Ben, Cuz and anyone else.

 

[HndsmCelt]

The argument still remains that veterans keep being brought in and none play better than Ben. You may be gun shy because you defended him in the past and he didn't improve this year, but the fact is, just about every player who has come to the Kings in the last 3 years has had issues with consistent play from year to year. I'll exclude Cuz and maybe Collison.

It may be time for Ben to move on for both sides sake, but we can't pretend like he had the table set for him and he blew it. It's pretty much the opposite. The franchise has kept him in situations that are detrimental to his growth.

Who has flourished in our organization? We could argue that Cousins emotional development has been stunted by playing for the Kings, and therefore he's not reaching his potential either.

You can't put someone in one of the most demanding/exclusive jobs in the world without any support or direction while the organization is in turmoil around them and say he was given every opportunity to succeed. This goes for Ben, Cuz and anyone else.

You could just replace the name Ben with Jason Thompson and it would read the same.

 

[hrdboild]

The argument still remains that veterans keep being brought in and none play better than Ben. You may be gun shy because you defended him in the past and he didn't improve this year, but the fact is, just about every player who has come to the Kings in the last 3 years has had issues with consistent play from year to year. I'll exclude Cuz and maybe Collison.

It may be time for Ben to move on for both sides sake, but we can't pretend like he had the table set for him and he blew it. It's pretty much the opposite. The franchise has kept him in situations that are detrimental to his growth.

Who has flourished in our organization? We could argue that Cousins emotional development has been stunted by playing for the Kings, and therefore he's not reaching his potential either.

You can't put someone in one of the most demanding/exclusive jobs in the world without any support or direction while the organization is in turmoil around them and say he was given every opportunity to succeed. This goes for Ben, Cuz and anyone else.

I don't place blame on Ben for the situation he's been put into. I think he was developing just fine under Coach Malone and since Malone was fired both his role and his minutes have been just as inconsistent as his performance. If you want to argue that he'll bounce back under a coach who's actually interested in developing him, I think you could make a case for that. If bajaden wants to argue that we need consistent production from the SG position next season and we have no reason to expect that from Ben I think he could make a case for that too. Truth be told I'm sortof caught in the middle on this one. But my instinct is leaning toward a steady veteran. I was strongly against a Shumpert for McLemore (plus pieces) trade at the deadline and I'm strongly in favor of that same trade today.

What changed? My mindset more than anything else. McLemore needed to show me some kind of sign that he was ready to turn the page next season and if anything he was worse after the trade deadline than the season and a half which preceded it. If there's one thing I'm adverse to it's beating my head against the same brick wall too many times. If the wall's not moving, it's time to try a different tactic. And that's where I am with Ben. The potential is still there but so are all of the question marks. If we can bring him back as a backup, that's fine but he's not my opening day starter next season for the 4th year in a row with all of the same uncertainties looming over him. I still think there's a decent chance that Ben develops into a solid starting guard for somebody in the future but I'd rather we sell his potential to a younger team or a team with a particular need that he fills. And while I would still take his potential over 90% of the mediocre veteran SGs that other kingsfans are going to slot into their off-season plans this summer, I've had to relegate him to back-burner status rather than future building-block status in my own longterm thinking and that means I'm looking for the right starting SG for next season and he's now expendable in pursuit of that goal. Just my opinion. I'm still hoping he puts it all together and carves out a nice career, but I no longer expect it.

 

[bajaden]

Yes, selective memory is a funny thing:
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/clutch/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Sac&sort=TM_TOV_PCT&dir=1
Both Rondo and Collison were not good enough in crunch time this year. Rondo took better care of the ball, but Collison scored more and with better efficiency, and team was equally bad.

The main difference to me, at least going forward, is that Collison seems to be more adaptable than Rondo. What that means on the equality scale I'll leave for others to decide.