Kobe and cast ready to prove their case
- Thread starter C Diddy
- Start date
Remember we are only trying to establish whic of these gaurds are team players and which are selfish... if you can think of a more relable measure or stat, or more represenitive sample ahve at it. Personaluy I think the most telling stat is the TO/A, but I only brought this back up to add evidecne to the rhetorical discussion. Again I have never called Kobe a ball hog.
It seems for every Lakers won't make the playoffs, there is a Lakers could be a surprise, counterpoint. I certainly won't be surprised if they make the playoffs. It's definitely to the point that nobody should be surprise if it was to happen. *If you're a media person, please don't inundate us with the "surprise" Lakers story line this year.* The only thing that would surprise me would be if they have a top 4 record in the West, which is most unlikely.
My belief is that the Lakers season will ride heavily on how well Lamar Odom does, and how well he plays alongside Kobe.
My belief is that the Lakers season will ride heavily on how well Lamar Odom does, and how well he plays alongside Kobe.
OK. Let's start with the process of elimination. Let's start from the bottom - the Jazz.
Since you're the expert, and since you've counted the Lakers out, why don't you start by identifying the starters of the Jazz. I have no clue about them.
Since we have nothing to go by, let's use NBA.com's pre-season stats for our projection/discussion. Now, tell me, why can't the Lakers neutralize the Jazz?
Since you're the expert, and since you've counted the Lakers out, why don't you start by identifying the starters of the Jazz. I have no clue about them.
Since we have nothing to go by, let's use NBA.com's pre-season stats for our projection/discussion. Now, tell me, why can't the Lakers neutralize the Jazz?
OK, lets look at the Jazz. One through 5 we have:
Arroyo…………..… fast becoming one of the top 10 PG’s in the NBA
Harpring…………… healthy this year and able to score on just about anyone including Kobe
AK-47….................. Again an emerging force in the NBA and not a bad defender… gets big boards
Carlos Boozer…….. Maybe notan elite PF but certainly able to score on Grant or an out of position Odam
At Center It is had to see who Sloan will start, Okur or Radojevic… but it si safe to say they are both a step ahead of Mihm and Vlade at this point.
Sloane is one of the top defense oriented coaches in the NBA, so it is safe to say that while Harpring may be hard pressed to contain Kobe, the advantages at PG, SF and Center all swing Utah’s way. As for the match ups at PF it will remain to be seen how well Odam will fair against Boozer. but add Bell and Colins from the bench and I see Utah winning a few more games. Close but no cigar.
Arroyo…………..… fast becoming one of the top 10 PG’s in the NBA
Harpring…………… healthy this year and able to score on just about anyone including Kobe
AK-47….................. Again an emerging force in the NBA and not a bad defender… gets big boards
Carlos Boozer…….. Maybe notan elite PF but certainly able to score on Grant or an out of position Odam
At Center It is had to see who Sloan will start, Okur or Radojevic… but it si safe to say they are both a step ahead of Mihm and Vlade at this point.
Sloane is one of the top defense oriented coaches in the NBA, so it is safe to say that while Harpring may be hard pressed to contain Kobe, the advantages at PG, SF and Center all swing Utah’s way. As for the match ups at PF it will remain to be seen how well Odam will fair against Boozer. but add Bell and Colins from the bench and I see Utah winning a few more games. Close but no cigar.
OK.
Arroyo vs. Atkins. I'd say Arroyo gets the edge offensively although defensively, I'd give Atkins the edge. Slight edge to Arroyo.
Harpring vs. Kobe. Enough said.
AK47 vs. Caron Butler. AK47 is all hyped up and made the All-Star last year. On the other hand, Butler was injured last year but in his rookie season when he was healthy, he spelled AK47. Because of the hype, I'd give the nod to AK47 but this year will tell the story since Butler is in a different team, a different system, and a different style of basketball.
Odom vs. Boozer. Odom, easily.
How is Okur a step ahead of Mihm? Mihm has a better low post game, a better shot blocker, and will actually pull down more rebound this year compared to his career average. What is so good about Okur?
Err, the bench at PF? The Lakers have Grant, Medvedenko, and a very young Cook who has been the surprise of the preseason for the Lakers.
And how about the bench. You didn't even talk about that one.
Utah's game allows fewer points but they can't score. The Lakers this year have scorers from all angles. And from what they've shown so far, they will actually play a different brand of defense. I'd say the Laker will win at least 5 games more than the Jazz easily after 82 games.
Arroyo vs. Atkins. I'd say Arroyo gets the edge offensively although defensively, I'd give Atkins the edge. Slight edge to Arroyo.
Harpring vs. Kobe. Enough said.
AK47 vs. Caron Butler. AK47 is all hyped up and made the All-Star last year. On the other hand, Butler was injured last year but in his rookie season when he was healthy, he spelled AK47. Because of the hype, I'd give the nod to AK47 but this year will tell the story since Butler is in a different team, a different system, and a different style of basketball.
Odom vs. Boozer. Odom, easily.
How is Okur a step ahead of Mihm? Mihm has a better low post game, a better shot blocker, and will actually pull down more rebound this year compared to his career average. What is so good about Okur?
Err, the bench at PF? The Lakers have Grant, Medvedenko, and a very young Cook who has been the surprise of the preseason for the Lakers.
And how about the bench. You didn't even talk about that one.
Utah's game allows fewer points but they can't score. The Lakers this year have scorers from all angles. And from what they've shown so far, they will actually play a different brand of defense. I'd say the Laker will win at least 5 games more than the Jazz easily after 82 games.
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What do you mean outscore most teams? Do you mean their scoring average will increase? How will the Jazz outscore most teams when their game is a slow down game, maximizing the shot clock? Even when Stockton and Malone were there, they really weren't a high scoring club. Why would Harpring and Boozer make a diffence?
Oh I know, I was just making the point that stats are misleading, and unfortunately unselfishness is hard to define because of how vague it can be. Does unselfishness mean something different for every position? How many shots and assists should a player rack up for each of the five positions to attain unselfishness? Is holding the ball too long unselfish? Lots of subjective, hard to define and quite arbitrary reasoning is given for being an unselfish player.
Utah is hard to figure out. Sloan taught them well last season, but they clearly overachieved. They were the definition of team, and often with the additions players (Boozer and Okur) you very often end up adding a "different" locker-room presence and your chemistry is disrupted, especially when it's players that get significant playing time like Okur and Boozer will. Just look at the Kings last season; their core had played with Webber for years but clearly couldn't find a groove offensively when he was inserted into the starting lineup and given the reigns to a very chemistry-oriented offense. And the Kings were literally the kings of team chemistry offensively.
But AK is such a great player that touches every aspect of the game defensively, and is only getting better offensively, that I have to believe they'll make the playoffs. But IMO, Boozer was never that great of a player, he simply was able to rebound well in the East. The Jazz really don't need boarding that badly, anyway. They need a scorer, which Boozer is simply decent at, knowing that even with LeBron he wasn't more than a 15 ppg scorer, I don't think he'll suddenly improve to 20 ppg anytime soon. Certainly, the guy has never been a good defender, and will probably be nothing more than average this year, even with Sloan tutoring him (similar to the way Howard won't suddenly become a great defender under JVG).
But AK is such a great player that touches every aspect of the game defensively, and is only getting better offensively, that I have to believe they'll make the playoffs. But IMO, Boozer was never that great of a player, he simply was able to rebound well in the East. The Jazz really don't need boarding that badly, anyway. They need a scorer, which Boozer is simply decent at, knowing that even with LeBron he wasn't more than a 15 ppg scorer, I don't think he'll suddenly improve to 20 ppg anytime soon. Certainly, the guy has never been a good defender, and will probably be nothing more than average this year, even with Sloan tutoring him (similar to the way Howard won't suddenly become a great defender under JVG).
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I know you already know this, but I just thought it might be wise to mention this: I am NOT a Laker fan.
That having been said, my point was simply that, even though the Lakers aren't as strong this season as they were last, they still have a lot of talent, good coaching, a top three talent in the NBA, and a good owner. I don't think that they're as bad as most people seem to think they are. They could easily be the fourth best team in the Western conference, and could also easily be the tenth best. It all depends on how things shape up over the winter. There are still a lot of unknowns, especially Utah and Phoenix. I personally see the Lakers as being right in the thick of things.
Regarding Kobe being a ballhog, well, I didn't direct any of my comments towards any specific person.
Secondly, using Kobe's career stats isn't a fair assessment of what he does. So here's what I came up with: Instead of using last year, when his shots per game, minutes per game, and games played all went down drastically, we'll use the year before that.
At shooting guard, he averaged 5.9 assists, 3.5 turnovers, shot 45% from the field, 38% from downtown, and scored 30 points a game.
Now, you're right about his A:TO ratio; it stunk for someone handling the ball as often as he did. Especially that season, partly because Shaq was hurt often, because besides those two that was the least talented and most banged up Laker team of the last five years, and because he often held on to the ball too long. But regardless, he's one of only two Lakers in the last five years to have a triple double. You don't do that if you don't have good basketball judgment.
It's also kind of interesting to me that the only players you compared him with were point guards, players whose job is to have a high A:TO ratio, distribute the ball and shoot a good percentage (Jason Kidd only gets two out of the three, by the way). Compare him to someone like Ray Allen or other shooting guards, and you'll see that their A:TO ratios are very similar and their shooting percentages are very similar.
All that having been said, it doesn't really matter about all these stats, because they can be twisted any way you want them to be. I can make a statistical argument to say that Steve Francis is better than John Stockton; it doesn't make it true. Watching the games is the only real gauge to determine what a player is capable of, what his strengths and weaknesses are, and what kind of leader he is. We'll see what Kobe does as the head honcho this season, and I'm willing to bet that he has a good year and that - barring significant injuries - the Lakers make the playoffs. Some may disagree, which is the nature of message boards.
That having been said, my point was simply that, even though the Lakers aren't as strong this season as they were last, they still have a lot of talent, good coaching, a top three talent in the NBA, and a good owner. I don't think that they're as bad as most people seem to think they are. They could easily be the fourth best team in the Western conference, and could also easily be the tenth best. It all depends on how things shape up over the winter. There are still a lot of unknowns, especially Utah and Phoenix. I personally see the Lakers as being right in the thick of things.
Regarding Kobe being a ballhog, well, I didn't direct any of my comments towards any specific person.
Secondly, using Kobe's career stats isn't a fair assessment of what he does. So here's what I came up with: Instead of using last year, when his shots per game, minutes per game, and games played all went down drastically, we'll use the year before that.
At shooting guard, he averaged 5.9 assists, 3.5 turnovers, shot 45% from the field, 38% from downtown, and scored 30 points a game.
Now, you're right about his A:TO ratio; it stunk for someone handling the ball as often as he did. Especially that season, partly because Shaq was hurt often, because besides those two that was the least talented and most banged up Laker team of the last five years, and because he often held on to the ball too long. But regardless, he's one of only two Lakers in the last five years to have a triple double. You don't do that if you don't have good basketball judgment.
It's also kind of interesting to me that the only players you compared him with were point guards, players whose job is to have a high A:TO ratio, distribute the ball and shoot a good percentage (Jason Kidd only gets two out of the three, by the way). Compare him to someone like Ray Allen or other shooting guards, and you'll see that their A:TO ratios are very similar and their shooting percentages are very similar.
All that having been said, it doesn't really matter about all these stats, because they can be twisted any way you want them to be. I can make a statistical argument to say that Steve Francis is better than John Stockton; it doesn't make it true. Watching the games is the only real gauge to determine what a player is capable of, what his strengths and weaknesses are, and what kind of leader he is. We'll see what Kobe does as the head honcho this season, and I'm willing to bet that he has a good year and that - barring significant injuries - the Lakers make the playoffs. Some may disagree, which is the nature of message boards.
I disagree on both of these.
Kirilenko was top five in the League in blocks and steals, came two rebounds away from averaging a double/double, is well rounded, has range, is long, plays hard, can put the ball on the floor, can create for his teammates, plays three positions, and is an All-Star. He is NOT all hype. I'd take Kirilenko any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.
Hype is Lamar Odom. One good year and he's a superstar... He's good, and has the potential to do what he did last year again, but I don't think he's as good as people make him out to be. He's undersized for small forward, his full-time position, he isn't a great defender at either forward position, and he hasn't been able to buy a bucket since the playoffs ended.
Boozer is a quality power forward, and will definitely benefit from playing in that lineup that Denver has. I'd take Boozer over Odom, and even if you disagree, I highly doubt that anyone would take Odom "easily".
Kirilenko was top five in the League in blocks and steals, came two rebounds away from averaging a double/double, is well rounded, has range, is long, plays hard, can put the ball on the floor, can create for his teammates, plays three positions, and is an All-Star. He is NOT all hype. I'd take Kirilenko any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.
Hype is Lamar Odom. One good year and he's a superstar... He's good, and has the potential to do what he did last year again, but I don't think he's as good as people make him out to be. He's undersized for small forward, his full-time position, he isn't a great defender at either forward position, and he hasn't been able to buy a bucket since the playoffs ended.
Boozer is a quality power forward, and will definitely benefit from playing in that lineup that Denver has. I'd take Boozer over Odom, and even if you disagree, I highly doubt that anyone would take Odom "easily".
6'10", 225lbs is small for a power forward.
And being one of the best defenders on a team that couldn't guard anybody the entire tournament isn't really that impressive. Odom isn't that good of a defender. He'll get in a passing lane or two and he might block a shot here and there, but he's average at best. I'd take Boozer for his size and his rebounding.
And being one of the best defenders on a team that couldn't guard anybody the entire tournament isn't really that impressive. Odom isn't that good of a defender. He'll get in a passing lane or two and he might block a shot here and there, but he's average at best. I'd take Boozer for his size and his rebounding.
Odom's a three, so is Butler. But I think Rudy has been on the right track starting the two of them together at the forward spots and going to a running game. Grant is fading fast. Its doubtful he can really help you win as a starter anymore. And Malone is yesterday's news. Bringing him back along with Vlade and Grant for the all-shuffleboard frontcourt is pointless if you're not in active contention for a title (which of course you can;t be with that frontcourt). Its like something the Knicks would do -- "No! Can't miss the playoffs! Would rather be mediocre forever!" At some point you have to just suck it up, look to the future, and play the young guys.