Kobe and cast ready to prove their case

#1
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/preview2004/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1909101

Perhaps it's time to give the other Kareem some of that primo space near Pat Riley on the list of Great Laker Guarantees.

Reason being: Kareem Rush is promising that his Lakers will definitely make the playoffs in L.A.'s first season ASAP -- After Shaq And Phil.

Dare to tell young Kareem they won't crack the top eight in the West, and this is the answer you get: "That's a bunch of bull."

OK, OK. Maybe that's not as bold as Riles' vow in the summer of 1987, when he announced to a championship parade that "I'm guaranteeing everybody here ... next year we're going to win it again," The risk factor for Rush, furthermore, is nothing compared to what Coach Riley faced after his Joe Namath imitation, because this Kareem won't be getting any blame if the Lakers do finish ninth or worse this season, as more than one pundit has predicted.

However ...

It's still a leap for any current Laker, Kobe Bryant included, to be guaranteeing anything about the forthcoming 82 games, apart from telling us (duh) that we can expect endless references to and questions about the departures of Shaquille O'Neal and Phil Jackson. No matter what any of them might promise, no one can really be sure what this team is capable of, with Bryant as the only returning starter, with Lamar Odom the only one newcomer of All-Star caliber, and with Rush as accomplished as any holdover who survived the off-season purge.

This is a prove-it-to-me team now. Which means Bryant could be facing more scrutiny than ever before, if that's possible.

Expectations are down, but the uncertainties surrounding the former scourge of the league remain huge. Can they reach the playoffs with Vlade Divac and Chris Mihm succeeding Shaq in the middle? Can they run as much as Kobe and new coach Rudy Tomjanovich would like, given L.A.'s potential rebounding issues? Can they get by with Brian Grant at center if Divac (health) and Mihm (inconsistency) falter? Can they get by with Lamar Odom masquerading as a power forward? Can they get enough offense from folks not named Bryant to consistently score in the 90s, which looks dicey from here even if Kobe goes crazy and averages 35 points a night? Can Caron Butler emerge from L.A.'s glut of small forwards to (a) stay healthy and (b) provide the outside shooting and slashing "success chances," to use Rudy T's words? Can Bryant trust his new teammates enough to make them better?

Prove it to me, Lakers. Or else we'll proceed to another interesting question: Can Kobe, embraced and adored last season like no Laker before him, maintain his popularity with the local populace if L.A. does plummet into lottery airspace?

Kobe, not surprisingly, refuses to ponder such issues in public view. Yet he is willing to provide an answer when asked if there's anything besides his own hunger to prove it to us.

That something, Bryant says, is the guy who actually authorized what Kobe is often accused of demanding: the exile of Shaq and Phil.

"Just look at Jerry Buss' track record," Bryant said. "I think that's always been a common denominator with Laker basketball here in L.A. The guy's a proven winner, year in and year out, no matter what type of changes have taken place with the team."

Translation: Bryant contends L.A. will contend as long as Buss is running the team.

Reaction: Kobe better hope that Buss' mojo is tangible, because the owner is the closest thing he has to established help. Even Odom, after his breakthrough season in Miami, acknowledges the skepticism out there regarding his return to the Westside and fears that he could lapse into the off-court behavior that perpetually intervened on his stint with the Clippers.

"In about a year or two, (Kobe) will be calling out to Jerry Buss that we need some help in here, or trade me," Seattle's Ray Allen recently told ESPN.com contributor Frank Hughes.

Added Allen: "We'll all be saying, 'We told you so' when he says that."

Who knows? There's always the possibility that Bryant and Buss are the smart ones. If they're truly patient enough to build the Lakers back up together, it's not inconceivable that Buss' rationale will ultimately be proved correct, painful as the rebuilding could be for them as they wait for some salary cap room to play with. If you look at the Buss Era, as Bryant requested, you must allow for the possibility that the owner was being quite sensible when he decided that the $40-plus million he'd have to keep spending annually to keep Shaq and Phil content was no longer a worthwhile investment. Not after two successive springs without a championship.

You also have to acknowledge that Bryant, not quite a month into the new season, is reaching out to teammates more than ever before. It's not so important why it's finally happening now. The key is that the new Lakers appear ready to follow him, in spite of all the bluster about how Bryant would have trouble gaining the trust of the locker room after the disintegration of the Shaq-Phil-Kobe triangle and the statements attributed to Bryant about Shaq to his arresting officers in Colorado.

"We've always trusted him," Rush said.

Said Grant, scoffing at the notion that Bryant will meet resistance when he tries to lead: "How you feel about a player starts by how much you respect a player. And everybody comes in respecting Kobe's game to the utmost."

"Kobe really looks upon this as a challenge," Lakers assistant Frank Hamblen, the only remaining alumnus from Jackson's staff. "I think he just felt it was time to move on and see if he can lead a team to a championship himself."

The challenge starts with getting to the playoffs, unless Rush's vow has convinced you that won't be a problem.

Odom, meanwhile, is another lefty who, like Kareem, is backing Bryant with what amounts to a non-guarantee guarantee.

"It's going to be fun," Odom said, "to prove everyone wrong."

-------

I wonder how the Lakers are going to feel when Kobe "There's no "I" in team, but there is a "M" and an "E" Bryant shows up and starts jacking up 47 shots a game.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#2
I love ASAP=After Shaq and Phil. I also fell like I'm form Misouri on this one... Show me. I originaly pegs the Lakers for the 7 or 8 slot but Pheonix and Utha are realy improved teams and LA is in reorgainzatin. So who do I think are likely to make the paly offs from the west?
1. Minny
2. SA
3. Kings
4. Houston
5. Denver
OK there were the No brainers. The final 3 slots could well be
6. Utah
7. Pheonix
8. Griz
With Lakers, Clipers and Portland in tight contention for the last slot.
In short Lakers may make it, but I doubt they will have more than 3 wins over teamsthat don't.
 
#3
C Diddy said:
I wonder how the Lakers are going to feel when Kobe "There's no "I" in team, but there is a "M" and an "E" Bryant shows up and starts jacking up 47 shots a game.
More options to pass to than in previous years. I think Kobe will be more than satisfied with 28 ppg and 6 apg.

He hasn't had many games of 40+ fgs, but he has had a lot of 40+ pt games which would no doubt encompass all of those "47 shot" games.

In his 29 career forty point games, he has shot 464/933 (.497).
 
#4
HndsmCelt said:
6. Utah
7. Pheonix
8. Griz
With Lakers, Clipers and Portland in tight contention for the last slot.
In short Lakers may make it, but I doubt they will have more than 3 wins over teamsthat don't.
LA ran all over Phx last night. Their defense is still quite poor and Nash's is still quite nonexistant. I think Phx is a paper tiger.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#5
We're playing Phoenix on Friday, albeit on the end of a back-to-back with Dallas...

I'm thinking Nash is going to have problems, because he won't have Dirkie to pass to...but I guess that's why they actually bother to play the games instead of simply drawing up the schedules and letting a couple of fan boards decide who'll win and who'll lose.

:D

This is gonna be an interesting year. A new team; new divisions; emerging rivalries; old favorite enemies; etc.

What's not to like?

I LOVE THIS GAME!!!
 
#6
The Lakers should make the playoffs but I suspect that their best showing will be a ticket to the second round. But if they get that far, you never know... I'm with Rush and Odom - "experts" will have to be proven wrong!
 
#7
I dislike the Lakers and Kobe as much as anyone on this board, but I think that they should be able to make it to the playoffs.
Odom and Butler were pretty impressive in the last playoffs. I think that the Lakers are being underestimated. Kobe will also do better than ever before as he has to prove himself.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#8
HndsmCelt said:
I love ASAP=After Shaq and Phil. I also fell like I'm form Misouri on this one... Show me. I originaly pegs the Lakers for the 7 or 8 slot but Pheonix and Utha are realy improved teams and LA is in reorgainzatin. So who do I think are likely to make the paly offs from the west?
1. Minny
2. SA
3. Kings
4. Houston
5. Denver
OK there were the No brainers. The final 3 slots could well be
6. Utah
7. Pheonix
8. Griz
With Lakers, Clipers and Portland in tight contention for the last slot.
In short Lakers may make it, but I doubt they will have more than 3 wins over teamsthat don't.
And that's not even mentioning Dallas.

Wouldn't shock me if the Lakers sneak in at #7 or #8. Also wouldn't surprise me if they are edged out for those same spots. Good year to be a division winner -- the other spots figure to be a dogfight, and might well come down to who is healthiest.
 
#9
Too early to predict, but on paper the Lakers should barely be able to squeeze into the 7th/8th spot, where they would in theory be promptly booted in the first round. That said, things like chemistry, great players, injuries, and an entire NBA regular season haven't unfolded yet. I'll need to see the first few weeks of the regular season before making semi-conclusive judgments. The Lakers play the Spurs, Nuggets and Jazz their first three games, that should be an interesting, and probably very telling, test of powers.
 
#11
HndsmCelt said:
I love ASAP=After Shaq and Phil. I also fell like I'm form Misouri on this one... Show me. I originaly pegs the Lakers for the 7 or 8 slot but Pheonix and Utha are realy improved teams and LA is in reorgainzatin. So who do I think are likely to make the paly offs from the west?
1. Minny
2. SA
3. Kings
4. Houston
5. Denver
OK there were the No brainers. The final 3 slots could well be
6. Utah
7. Pheonix
8. Griz
With Lakers, Clipers and Portland in tight contention for the last slot.
In short Lakers may make it, but I doubt they will have more than 3 wins over teamsthat don't.
That's more of a dis than a prediction. And Brick is right, Dallas isn't even in there. In terms of depth, the Lakers are deeper than most of those teams. Perhaps Minny, SA, and Houston might be a level apart but the rest of those teams are not totally unbeatable by the Lakers.
 
#12
KA_2 said:
Too early to predict, but on paper the Lakers should barely be able to squeeze into the 7th/8th spot, where they would in theory be promptly booted in the first round. That said, things like chemistry, great players, injuries, and an entire NBA regular season haven't unfolded yet. I'll need to see the first few weeks of the regular season before making semi-conclusive judgments. The Lakers play the Spurs, Nuggets and Jazz their first three games, that should be an interesting, and probably very telling, test of powers.
I'm going all out - the Lakers will go 2-1 in that stretch.
 
#13
Lamar_Odom said:
I'm going all out - the Lakers will go 2-1 in that stretch.
3-0. :D

And the Rockets are being overrated, Yao isn't that good. I wouldn't be surprised if they missed the playoffs. You heard it here first (well no, I don't know if you actually did hear that here first).
 
#15
Lamar_Odom said:
I'd say the Lakers will go 6th at the very lowest, behind SA, Minny, Houston, Dallas, and Kings.
I would have to agree here, the Lakers still need to develop chemistry but they definately have many athletic, talented players and are quite deep. They also have great passers in Vlade, Odom and Kobe and if Malone returns I think they will definately be a contender. Their biggest weakness seems to be interior defense and the PG position, but other than that I can see them turning a lot of heads this season. But I don't think they will win the Pacific this year.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#16
KingKong said:
I would have to agree here, the Lakers still need to develop chemistry but they definately have many athletic, talented players and are quite deep. They also have great passers in Vlade, Odom and Kobe and if Malone returns I think they will definately be a contender. Their biggest weakness seems to be interior defense and the PG position, but other than that I can see them turning a lot of heads this season. But I don't think they will win the Pacific this year.
Actually they have three, athletic talented players. And one prospect at center.

No way they are deeper or more talented than the Rockets, the Suns, the Nuggets, Memphis, maybe not even Utah. Certainly not the elite teams or Dallas. They can make it, but its certainly not a dis to say they won't. The West is brutal, and on paper its tough to argue the Lakers are in the top eight (they'd waltz in in the East despite its improvement). If they are going to make it it all has to come together for them, and quick -- they are also among the newest/highest roster turnover teams in the West. Bad year to have to be figuring out how to play with each other.
 
#17
Bricklayer said:
Actually they have three, athletic talented players. And one prospect at center.

No way they are deeper or more talented than the Rockets, the Suns, the Nuggets, Memphis, maybe not even Utah. Certainly not the elite teams or Dallas. They can make it, but its certainly not a dis to say they won't. The West is brutal, and on paper its tough to argue the Lakers are in the top eight (they'd waltz in in the East despite its improvement). If they are going to make it it all has to come together for them, and quick -- they are also among the newest/highest roster turnover teams in the West. Bad year to have to be figuring out how to play with each other.
The thing is that none of those teams have the one of the most dominant players in Kobe Bryant. Sure you could make a case for Mcgrady, Yao and perhaps Carmello but they still are not on the same level. If Kobe can change his shoot -first mentality and not jack up 30+ shots a game I think they can do well. He can be a player that definately makes the team around him better, but can he will them to victory night in and night out? Only time will tell I suppose. However, I do agree that the Lakers depth might not be greater than any of those teams that you mentioned. By the way, where would you rank the Kings in the West?
 
#18
KingKong said:
The thing is that none of those teams have the one of the most dominant players in Kobe Bryant. Sure you could make a case for Mcgrady, Yao and perhaps Carmello but they still are not on the same level. If Kobe can change his shoot -first mentality and not jack up 30+ shots a game I think they can do well. He can be a player that definately makes the team around him better, but can he will them to victory night in and night out? Only time will tell I suppose. However, I do agree that the Lakers depth might not be greater than any of those teams that you mentioned. By the way, where would you rank the Kings in the West?
The Lakers could be dangerous a la 1995 if winning the scoring title isn't a priority for Kobe. The squad may be accurately portrayed by Bricklayer, but they've got more overall talent than they did in 2002 as well as a number of competent perimeter shooters. Kobe needs to use his penetration skills to set up teammates from the perimeter because teams are collapsing on him like their lives are at stake. In fact, there are so many guys who can can open shots, that Kobe would be doing himself a disservice if he didn't create space for them.
 
#19
Bricklayer said:
Actually they have three, athletic talented players. And one prospect at center.

No way they are deeper or more talented than the Rockets, the Suns, the Nuggets, Memphis, maybe not even Utah. Certainly not the elite teams or Dallas. They can make it, but its certainly not a dis to say they won't. The West is brutal, and on paper its tough to argue the Lakers are in the top eight (they'd waltz in in the East despite its improvement). If they are going to make it it all has to come together for them, and quick -- they are also among the newest/highest roster turnover teams in the West. Bad year to have to be figuring out how to play with each other.
Even as a laker fan I dont think it is a dis to say they might not make it either......this is a new squad who is going to have to prove themselves all over again....

I will say this though.....it may only be preseason but Mgt for the lakers looks like it really may have outdone itself bring in talent to this team.....even with Odom struggling to find his place.....the likes of Chris Mihm, Tierra Brown, Brian Grant, Caron Butler, Brian Cooke, and Tony Bobbit are bringing something to us that we as lakers fans have missed for quite a while.....energy and hustle

In years past if Kobe or Shaq had a off night....we stuggled to win....if they both had a bad night....we lost. A new guy is stepping up every night as a laker.....

Look out for Tierra Brown.....the guy was just supposed to be camp fodder and he is showing lots of promise....regardless of who he is playing against.
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#20
I just dont see it happening, that first losing streak is going to kill Kobe.... and he will start jacking up 30 shots a game and losing. if the lakers become a running team and start forcing teams to play like them they will definitely lose. Denver is waiting for a reason to run.... especially Martin and Melo. The Grizz are still deeper than the lakers, but we'll have to wait until after the all-star break to see how far the lakers are going to go this season.

Not only that but the lakers are weak at the 2 positions that everyother top team is strongest at... PG and PF, Atkins and Odom??? Parker and Duncan, Cassell and KG, Bibby and Webber(healthy or just standing), Terry and Dirk, Mcgrady and Yao...lol(still really good team).
 
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HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#21
Call it a diss if you like. But the question you have to answer firsrt is why should anyone respect the Lakers yet? Team colors? These guys have NOT played any serious games togher yet and have some SERIOUS holes in the line up. Having a high scoring gaurd is nice but manhy of us have felt that with out a domant big man in the line up Kobe may well be another Vince Carter, Allen Iverson or at best T-Mac. It is now up to HIM to proove otherwise. As for the rest of the squad I stand by my observation that they are hard up at Center. Vlad could bring leadership (he also may not unpack that bag) and he can still pass, and shoot some but he can't help in the fast break, can't rebound the 60% of missed shots by Kobe from out side, and he cant keep scoreers out of the paint. Mihm is quicker, maybe a better scoreer but he can't defend the low post, his fouls besides taking him out of the game in 25 min, will put guys to the line. Odam is a good SF but he is much more suited for the the 3 than the 4 whitch creates a problem, unless Malone comes back this is a team with our a true PF, and will likely field a short light front line with Odom and Butler (when he is healthy) and either Mihm or Vlade. then there is the other problem at PG. Neither Atkins or Sasha are the kind of guy that it is easy to get excited about. Atkins has been an underachiver for 5 years playing 25-30 min a game in the the cellers of the East. Sasha is a small, rookie with no NBA experience. As for the alleged depth what peopel are looking at here is guys like B. Grant who despite increased min has had decreased production, H. Grant, equallly washed up and probably about to retire, more small forwards like Jones and fan favorites that can play their role like Slava and Cook, but who are not exactly NBA up and commers.

Is this a bad team? No, is this a top 5 team in the West? No. Top Ten? sure. But the question that this team has to answer for the Laker fan is can this team gather up more wins than The Griz, who have a better starting 5 and more experience together. Can they collect more wins than Phoenix who despite defense problems may be the new Mavs, out running and our scoring opponets, and finaly. As I said the Lakers might pull it off and make the top 8, but untill I see them put up convincing wins against the other hopefulls in the West I am doubtfull.
 
#23
I think people are being a bit hard on the Lakers and especially on Kobe.

First of all, you can call him a ball hog with a shoot first mentality all you want, but he doesn't average 5+ assists per game without passing the ball. His leadership abilities? Jury's still out on that (no pun intended).

And this is a talented team, top to bottom. Odom was a 17/10 player last year, Caron Butler put up 18 points in 11 minutes last night (he shot a dozen free throws, though). He averaged 15 points a game as a rookie, he's a strong defender, he can play both swing positions and he plays within himself. I'd like to have him on the Kings. Chris Mihm is showing signs of being a very serviceable center, even in the West. Brian Cook is showing touch from all over the floor, both shooting and passing. Kareem Rush and Luke Walton are both serviceable backups, Jumaine Jones is a proven NBA player, and of course Vlade Divac and Brian Grant know what they're doing. They aren't a bottom dwelling team.

Now, the West is even tougher this year than it has been in recent years. The five "wild card teams" are gonna have a tough fight on their hands. It should be fun, but I expect the Lakers to be one of those five teams. Phoenix is probably a paper tiger, as Gargamel brings out. Utah is working off of Jerry Sloan's reputation. Memphis is trying to build off of last year's success. Dallas is virtually unknown without their All-Star point guard Steve Nash. Denver is going to be tough as hell, as long as their healthy. Houston's unknown, but could easily be tough with arguably two of the ten best players in the League.

But I do think that the Lakers are one of the eight best teams in the Western conference. I don't see them finishing lower than 5th or 6th, especially when you consider how many veterans with playoff experience they have on the team. Kobe will probably have a really good year, Odom will come around, Butler will be solid, and the Lakers will be okay. Buss is too good of an owner to let him team sink all the way into mediocrity.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#24
First of all I simply responded to the article that suggested the Lakers had to prove them selves, by agreeing and listing the ratings of the teams based on what I have seen so far. And even with my oversight of Dallas, I found 8 or 9 teams that I think look to do better than the Lakers. I understand how some people might find it appalling to suggest the Lakers will not make the play off, but the question you have to answer for your self is if the Lakers are going to make it, what teams will not? Utah? Phoenix? Memphis? Minnesota?

As for the ever popular argument about weather or not Kobe is a ball hog I will also note that I have NEVER called Kobe a ball hog on this board (or any other) This is a completely subjective term that defies any real definition and as such I find it a useless term that only serves to spur on line burn wars. But if you want to debate Kobe's passing judgment and weather or not he is a team player, I'm game. So what does constitute a “Selfish Player” and what differentiates him form a “team player” Laker fans want to argue that Kobe averaging 5 assists is proof that he is not selfish. So lets compare states of some know or suspected ball hogs and some reputed team players.

Known and suspected selfish players:
Allen Iverson
Fg% .414 Apg 5.7 TO 3.64 TO/A 1.57 Ppg 27
Vince Carter
Fg% .447 Apg 3.9 TO 2.37 TO/A 1.64 Ppg 23.8


Team Players
Jason Kidd
Fg% .402 Apg 9.4 TO 3.9 TO/A 2.41 Ppg 14.8

Mike Bibby
Fg% .451 Apg 6.5 TO 2.5 TO/A 2.60 Ppg 14.4

Now Kobe
Fg% .454 Apg 4.3 TO 2.69 TO/A 1.59 Ppg 21.8

You look at his stats and tell me who he has more in common with? Personally I think the most telling stat is the turn over assist ratio. This gives a pretty good idea of which players wisely move the ball and which ones hold on to it when they should have passed. Again note I said nothing directly about Kobe here, like Fox I report… you decide.
 
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#25
Firstly, comparing players who play different positions is fruitless and ultimately pointless without context. For example, for their careers Lamar Odom has about an equal apg total and a worse A/TO ratio than Kobe, which according to you would make Odom closer to an AI or VC type of player basedthan Kobe. But is anyone in their right mind going to call Odom a selfish player they way AI or VC are selfish players? No. That's just a case where you have to watch some games to see that Odom isn't a selfish player.

Secondly, career stats are pretty pointless. Kidd, Bibby, VC, AI, and Kobe are all better players than they were in their rookie seasons, and only Kobe entered the NBA as a teenager. All these players are in their primes, not their rookie seasons. I'd use their prime stats instead.
 
#27
John from Hemet said:
Look out for Tierra Brown.....the guy was just supposed to be camp fodder and he is showing lots of promise....regardless of who he is playing against.
Tierre Brown is the type of player that makes me cringe, a spud shoot-first 1. If the team was balanced, Bobbitt would definitely make the cut over Brown. That said, there is a place in Rudy's world for players like Brown. If his only job is to penetrate and lay the ball in, he'll do fine. Expecting him to set up teammates and finish fast breaks seems like too much to ask from him at this point.
 
#28
HndsmCelt said:
As for the alleged depth what peopel are looking at here is guys like B. Grant who despite increased min has had decreased production, H. Grant, equallly washed up and probably about to retire, more small forwards like Jones and fan favorites that can play their role like Slava and Cook, but who are not exactly NBA up and commers.
Horace Grant is retired. Brian Grant will probably benefit from not having to guard centers all the time. He's not a skill player, he can contribute in reduced minutes. All he has to do is wrestle around in the paint. Jones has played well so far. The difference between Cook, Rush, and Med of their rookie years and now is that they're no longer flat-out scrubs. Now, you can't leave Cook and Rush alone on the perimeter. Cook is also a decent passer and pretty complimentary to Luke Walton. Now, Slava is a capable vet who has shown that he can restrain himself on D, that he can rebound, and that he can pass up bad shots. There are 9-10 guys on this team who aren't deers-in-the-headlights anymore and who have specific skills that can be exploited.
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#29
HndsmCelt said:
First of all I simply responded to the article that suggested the Lakers had to prove them selves, by agreeing and listing the ratings of the teams based on what I have seen so far. And even with my oversight of Dallas, I found 8 or 9 teams that I think look to do better than the Lakers. I understand how some people might find it appalling to suggest the Lakers will not make the play off, but the question you have to answer for your self is if the Lakers are going to make it, what teams will not? Utah? Phoenix? Memphis? Minnesota?

As for the ever popular argument about weather or not Kobe is a ball hog I will also note that I have NEVER called Kobe a ball hog on this board (or any other) This is a completely subjective term that defies any real definition and as such I find it a useless term that only serves to spur on line burn wars. But if you want to debate Kobe's passing judgment and weather or not he is a team player, I'm game. So what does constitute a “Selfish Player” and what differentiates him form a “team player” Laker fans want to argue that Kobe averaging 5 assists is proof that he is not selfish. So lets compare states of some know or suspected ball hogs and some reputed team players.

Known and suspected selfish players:
Allen Iverson
Fg% .414 Apg 5.7 TO 3.64 TO/A 1.57 Ppg 27
Vince Carter
Fg% .447 Apg 3.9 TO 2.37 TO/A 1.64 Ppg 23.8


Team Players
Jason Kidd
Fg% .402 Apg 9.4 TO 3.9 TO/A 2.41 Ppg 14.8

Mike Bibby
Fg% .451 Apg 6.5 TO 2.5 TO/A 2.60 Ppg 14.4

Now Kobe
Fg% .454 Apg 4.3 TO 2.69 TO/A 1.59 Ppg 21.8

You look at his stats and tell me who he has more in common with? Personally I think the most telling stat is the turn over assist ratio. This gives a pretty good idea of which players wisely move the ball and which ones hold on to it when they should have passed. Again note I said nothing directly about Kobe here, like Fox I report… you decide.
T-Mac averaged just as many assists last year as Kobe, scored more and his team sucked... Does that make McGrady a team player or a suitable leader?

HELL NO.... He is a very selfish player.
 
#30
HndsmCelt said:
First of all I simply responded to the article that suggested the Lakers had to prove them selves, by agreeing and listing the ratings of the teams based on what I have seen so far. And even with my oversight of Dallas, I found 8 or 9 teams that I think look to do better than the Lakers. I understand how some people might find it appalling to suggest the Lakers will not make the play off, but the question you have to answer for your self is if the Lakers are going to make it, what teams will not? Utah? Phoenix? Memphis? Minnesota?

As for the ever popular argument about weather or not Kobe is a ball hog I will also note that I have NEVER called Kobe a ball hog on this board (or any other) This is a completely subjective term that defies any real definition and as such I find it a useless term that only serves to spur on line burn wars. But if you want to debate Kobe's passing judgment and weather or not he is a team player, I'm game. So what does constitute a “Selfish Player” and what differentiates him form a “team player” Laker fans want to argue that Kobe averaging 5 assists is proof that he is not selfish. So lets compare states of some know or suspected ball hogs and some reputed team players.

Known and suspected selfish players:
Allen Iverson
Fg% .414 Apg 5.7 TO 3.64 TO/A 1.57 Ppg 27
Vince Carter
Fg% .447 Apg 3.9 TO 2.37 TO/A 1.64 Ppg 23.8


Team Players
Jason Kidd
Fg% .402 Apg 9.4 TO 3.9 TO/A 2.41 Ppg 14.8

Mike Bibby
Fg% .451 Apg 6.5 TO 2.5 TO/A 2.60 Ppg 14.4

Now Kobe
Fg% .454 Apg 4.3 TO 2.69 TO/A 1.59 Ppg 21.8

You look at his stats and tell me who he has more in common with? Personally I think the most telling stat is the turn over assist ratio. This gives a pretty good idea of which players wisely move the ball and which ones hold on to it when they should have passed. Again note I said nothing directly about Kobe here, like Fox I report… you decide.
What do Memphis, Phoenix, Utah, and even Denver have that the Lakers can't neutralize? SA has Duncan. Houston has Yao and TMAC. MN has KG. Even Dallas when you consider the way they play defense is not all that invincible. "Other" teams have lots of questions too.