ockingsfan
Starter
Yes it was three, but now it is two.
Papa wasn't much of an asset, as seen by him being waived for nothing.
Kings waiving papa morphed into Vlade sucks
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Yes it was three, but now it is two.
Papa wasn't much of an asset, as seen by him being waived for nothing.
AleksandarN
Starter
At the time of the draft it was three players in a weak draft having 3 chances of getting a good player is good asset management
AleksandarN
Starter
Which is the best outcome considering the 2016 draft. Tell me what player is better than bogs In the draft?
ParniValjak
All-Star
You still ended up with a player and three shots in a crap draft. If one out of those 4 work out you have done well enough. Not brilliant but OK. Many teams just dead set failed that draft in a major way.
King Baller
All-Star
I would say none of the players you would select would make a significant difference in the National Basketball Association. We know Papa did not work out. Wade Baldwin is one who you would have possibly chosen, he is in the G league and has been passed on by his original club.
That's why I am punching myself after reading some of the responses here. He turned one shot in the dark into 4. And one of those shots (Bogs) we all knew would be NBA ready it was just a matter of if/when he'd come.
Would people feel better if he picked Skal first? Also this "no other team would have picked him" do we know that? No other team is going to admit it today, but that's all we know.
Many folks also saw it as a worthy path to pursue on this board and in media.
You can argue that strategy was wrong, and that is valid point, but that is not what you were asking.
If you put aside personal thoughts whether strategy was right or not, for someone pursuing "build around Cuz" strategy the trade makes sense.
ockingsfan
Starter
It is not a question of Bogs or not.
The trade was good in the fact that we got Bogdan, but what I am saying is that basically we got two players now, not 3 players for trading down from #8.
The 3rd player, Papa is no longer an asset of the Kings, so he is not something that can be claimed as an asset from that trade anymore.
Telemachus
Starter
It may not make a difference, but the Kings also received a 2020 (Det.) 2nd rd pick in that trade.
No this is a dumb argument too "Well just imagine if we picked Skal at 13 and Papa at 28. Then we'd be fine!"
That's not what happened so don't create a hypothetical argument to try and ignore the fact that we gave up on a #13 pick and a #22 pick 1 year and a half into their careers. Those are failed picks and a bad use of those particular assets.
This also doesn't mean we lost the trade. Getting Bogdan and Skal for Chriss is a pretty solid haul and even though it's still early, it's one I think we'll end up winning down the line.
Telemachus
Starter
I don't see anyone trying to pump up anything about Vlade here. It is simply being pointed out that the 13th pick in that draft wasn't worth much. Not just because he drafted PapaG, but because there wasn't much NBA talent to be had there regardless of who they would've picked.
It's a year and a half into their careers! How do you know who's NBA caliber or not? Can you tell me for certain that every single player drafted after 13 in that draft, other than Murray or Brogdon are going to be out of the league in 3 years?
Point is, jury is still out on that draft. Anyone trying to claim they know how a particular class will turn out a year and a half later is flat out doesn't understand player development. But, in our case, we know Papa and Malachi were failed picks because we gave up on them and had no interest in seeing how they would develop
Livinthedream
All-Star
Fair point. I was not a "build around Cuz to win now" guy. I was a "start the rebuild through the draft right now" guy. Very little faith in free agency for this team, so it's crucial that we're smart with draft picks. Which we haven't been overall.
I have never insisted Vlade is a world beater GM. I have conceded that he walked into a complete mess caused by ~6 years of Maloofs actively destroying the team followed by two years of ineptitude by his predecessors and Vivek's growing pains. He has had growing pains himself. Obviously. He also has done well and some people won't even give him a lick of credit for his successes while holding him to impossible standards. Name a player worthy of the 13th pick. Well you can't. But you didn't like his guy. The next most popular suggestion is also out of the league.
The guy can't win with some of you and it's sad.
The guy can't win with some of you and it's sad.
AleksandarN
Starter
I am arguing at the time of the draft we had those assets. It was good asset management. That draft class was a crap shoot. So getting more players for the one asset we had was the a good choice and good asset management. Was it not?
ockingsfan
Starter
Not one person is saying any of that pdx. When Vlade took over 3 years ago we had a superstar and a bunch of assorted parts. Most of us were hoping we could somehow sign, draft, or trade for a couple of complimentary pieces and at least be a .500 level team with playoff potential. I would expect a good GM to make incremental improvements year to year. Just because I'm mad at the choices Vlade made doesn't mean I would have preferred for him to do nothing. Danny Ainge managed to turn declining overpaid veterans into a first place team in a similar amount of time. That's the standard all GMs are judged by. If you're not getting better someone else is and that means you're getting worse. No hard feelings, it's just time to move on and see if someone else can do the job better. Settling for mediocrity is no kind of accomplishment.
He was completely hamstrung by years of ineptitude. The stupid protected first that never conveyed plus some of the terrible picks of his predecessors completely killed his ability to do anything other than make the 2019 trade to free up space that he is now routinely crucified for. If we had taken off nobody would lose any sleep over that pick. In fact if something clicks next year he'll be lauded for all the guys he brought in. And it could just as easily happen. And he has said if he can't get us there by the time that pick comes due, he will step down.
I don't know what anyone else can ask. He had a plan and a timeline, let him see it out. He'll be gone next year if it doesn't come around.
At least acknowledge the good things he's done.
I can't even believe you compared to Boston, let alone nothing Vlade has done compares to what Brooklyn did to enable that turnaround. Also Ainge built that mess that he straightened out. Vlade inherited his.
ParniValjak
All-Star
Except the lack of protection around the pick. That is amateur hour. Vlade had made many mistakes in his time here but he has also done some good and some solid stuff. People don’t agree with the approach so they think the would do a better job hence the outcry. If it was as easy as they make it out to be, they would be a GM on an NbA team and not a wanna be on a fan forum.
ParniValjak
All-Star
Oh please! Look at the ****ing draft and tell me how many genuine, productive NBA players were picked outside the top 7 that would be solid to good contibutors on a play off team?!
You can pick something that is not there. Every NBA expert was saying that it was the weakest draft in a long time and people expect their team to pick a superstar at 13. Please! Reality check!
He could have it top 5 protected and the same people would be eating him alive. He was a rookie GM and it was part of his learning curve. It may still be his ultimate downfall. I wish people would give him more credit for having learned from that mistake but it's still tear him apart at every turn. George Hill was going to give us too many wins they say. Then it was that he was costing us wins. Now it's that we didn't get enough for him.
I think he had a pretty nice 2017. I hated how the Boogie trade went down, but it seems to have panned out - initiating the tank at that moment allowed us go get Fox and have a second pick we turned into the 15 and 20. A lot rides on whether or not Giles is as advertised. Jackson seems like he'll be a rotation guy. The second rounder we got in the trade also looks like he could be our backup to Fox. If we score in this upcoming draft, land a complimentary free agent and Giles is what people are saying he is, we might not rue that pick. It's possible.
If it doesn't happen I do believe the Vlade haters will get their wish.
Oh, and we'll likely suffer 5-10 more years while whoever comes in undoes everything.
jcassio
Starter
I think Vlade should be fired for those contracts he gave to Landry and JT! That's poor asset management!
That "mess" that Ainge built won a championship. I'm not comparing him to Vlade to make him look bad, it's just that it's a competitive league. The goal is to win a championship right? If Papagiannis and Richardson weren't going to be help us get there we cut them loose. Fair enough. Shouldn't the same standard apply to the GM? Vlade knows this, he played in the league.
Other people might be trying to make this a one-sided thing but I've acknowledged when Vlade made moves that I liked. I was on-board with signing Koufos, Rondo, Butler and Belinelli. That season was sunk when he didn't fire George Karl in December and waited until the whole thing imploded. I was also on board with the George Hill signing (though I'm not sure why we couldn't have just brought Collison back for half that amount) -- but salary dumping a player you just gave a multi-year deal to less than a year later strikes me as particularly foolish. So does buying out Matt Barnes less than a year after giving him a 12 million dollar deal.
You could always say "let's just wait and see" and sound like the reasonable one but there's a point at which that just becomes an excuse. First it was the (many) coaches' fault then it was the Maloofs' fault then it was PeteD and Chris' fault. Vlade has had three years and we've gotten worse every year. Every player on our roster is somebody Vlade brought in. This isn't a Sam Hinkie situation where Vlade is going to walk out the door having acquired two future Hall of Fame players and a load of future picks. Whoever comes in next is now going to have to clean up the mess that Vlade made.
I think Vlade should be fired for those contracts he gave to Landry and JT! That's poor asset management!
If Vlade had traded JT, Carl Landry, and Nik Stauskas for a top 10 protected pick no one would have batted an eye. He got taken to the cleaners on that deal and it's perfectly obvious to everyone who isn't determined to defend him at all costs. Show me another example of a team trading an unprotected first round pick and receiving no players in return. The Cousins trade was widely criticized as one of the most lopsided deals in history -- not just on this board but everywhere. Nobody is going out on a ledge to criticize these deals, the commentary around the league is pretty much unanimous that they're terrible deals. And once again this year he managed to turn an asset (20 million of cap space last summer) into negative value. Three data points equals a trend.
jcassio
Starter
Hey - I'm not a Vlade apologist. I think he's made plenty of mistakes and have said so. He's also made some good moves and I've credited him for that. Like many Kings fans, I often find myself in between the extremists. Those who want to praise and defend Vlade at every turn, and those who want him on the ends of their pitchforks. I find both extremes tiresome. But most of all I find the kneejerk reactions to fire players, coaches, GMs and owners to be adolescent. Don't wrap yourself in a Kings flag and spew hate. Anybody who has that much hate for the team they love really ought to go find another team. I'm all for well-deserved criticism, but there's a huge gulf between that and the hate I see on this board. Sorry, VF, but that's how I feel.
Telemachus
Starter
In case you missed it, PapaG's agent went off on the kings for waiving him. If he actually believes what he says about his client then he is delusional.
Papagiannis' agent rips Kings after club cuts 2016 1st-rounder
https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/1483182
Papagiannis' agent rips Kings after club cuts 2016 1st-rounder
https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/1483182
Boston is more or less like a second home town to me. I just think comparing them - their history, the fact that they had a super team assemble themselves and Ainge was just there, not to mention his buddy was the GM for the team that made the trade to put it together - to Sacramento, which is basically an NBA dump except for a 6 year stretch, doesn't work.
Then throw in malicious, meddling ownership followed by horrific incompetence and it takes a few years to right the ship. Vlade made some rookie mistakes. I think he's recovered pretty nicely. People raved about his offseason last year. Why are we killing the guy over the crap he did his first season? He even gave his own timeline which most GMs would never do, so why not see that out? It's one more season, for what that's worth.
Hey, I can turn around this giant cluster-f or I'm out in 4 seasons? That's swag, even if it's misguided. I like it.
I'm not convinced the next guy will do any better.
Yeah all the contenders are lining up to sign him and I'm sure he's just working furiously together with his agent to determine which one has the best chance of being one PapaG away from a ring.
Telemachus
Starter
It's funny because I like PapaG and hope he succeeds. He just came into the league about 10 years too late. I always felt he could develop into a good backup for Cousins. Unfortunately for him the make-up of the team has changed into one where his style of play would no longer fit if he became ready.
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