[Game] Kings vs. Suns, 11/08/21 7pm Pacific 10pm Eastern

Who should have taken that last shot?


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Fox was way late with the pass.

1) The play design was well done
2) Fox F’d up the timing of the pass, even said as such.
3) Once Fox F’d up Metu should have stopped.
I mean technically I think you guys are both right. Fox was late in getting the pass to metu going to the basket. Fox then passed it to metu under the basket but he started running towards fox. If he would have stayed there, the pass would have been there, just would have arrived a second after he stopped as opposed to hitting him in stride. The fact that metu moved towards fox meant he got the ball at a possibly odd angle and though I believe it was catchable, he fumbled it away. Things didn’t go perfect but the sequence was salvageable and could have still been executed.
 
It's not about how he's paid - not to me. Regardless of salary, we know he can do MUCH better. His shots simply not falling - that's frustrating enough for everybody, no doubt. But when his shot's not falling AND his effort sometimes appears to be lacking - yeah, that's hard to take, especially when every one of the six losses to date has been winnable (losses by 9, 12, 6, 6, 3, 5). Consistently strong effort from De'Aaron might have led to an extra win here or there. The 7-4 record the Kings could otherwise have would feel much better than the 5-6 record they do have.

The good news, IMO, is that - contra to what some of you are saying - I don't see anything *wrong* with him physically. He's getting to his spots and missing wide-open 10 and 12-footers at a clip we didn't see last year - but he's getting the looks. On the defensive end, he just hasn't consistently followed thru on his offseason pledge to lock in.

Let's hope he can manage to do better.
I agree on the majority of your points.

However, I AM thinking that there is some underlying physical reason for his obvious regression from last season.

Let’s not forget that he contracted COVID.

Could there be lingering health effects that are negatively impacting his performance?

I’ve heard of this happening with other professional athletes.

Just a thought.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
Yeah we'll see. I think the only 2 games where we were clearly the better team on paper was the Pelicans games, which we won. People were clowning the Pacers, but they're gonna make the playoffs, especially with Carlisle at the helm. And yeah the Suns without Ayton, but still it's the 2nd night of a B-B to take on the western champs.

What's going to dictate our success is how we beat up these bad teams. If you can hover around .500 against good teams (like we did) and really beat up the bottom feeders, you probably have a good chance to make the playoffs. 4-game road trips are tough, but these are all teams we'll likely be favored against. Need to be 3-1 to really keep the playoff momentum going
I tend to agree with the factors you're bringing up, but I would add one more - you've got to win at home. That's why they really needed to at least split against the Pacers and Suns.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
Also, while Luke deserves credit for playing and sticking with Damian Jones, he probably deserves some blame for playing him the entire fourth quarter without any breaks. Poor dude went from DNP for the first ten games to playing twelve whole minutes in a row.
He should have no problem playing 12 straight minutes. He's young and he hasn't played a minute this season. Don't go soft on me, Tesujin.:)
 
LOL.

Tell me you know nothing about math without telling me you know nothing about math
For me at least, there's a difference between saying that 11 games proves something (insufficient sample size) and saying that the 11 games in themselves are significant. There is a very very high probability that our playin/playoff chances are going to be decided by <5 games, and if Fox (who is the de facto leader and max franchise player) plays like he's supposed to, we would have won at least 2 games more in these 11 games. If that means I'm blaming Fox, then yes I'm blaming him, and IMO rightly so.

So it depends what we're saying when talking about whether 11 games is enough or not. To be the sole justification for trading him? No. To prove that he isn't a franchise player? Not yet.
 
I would agree that 11 games is a sufficient sample to worry about what might be wrong with Fox right now and whether it's merely a slump or the beginning of something more serious. But I don't think it's large enough to count as regression yet. He's had 5 seasons of continual progression before this. If these are still his numbers at the end of the season, then I will agree that he has regressed. Right now I think his production is not that far off from his usual numbers if he just fixes his shooting percentages. The eye test is more of a concern but I'm on record already since the first week of the Luke Walton era in believing that his offensive "system" is broken and it's a miracle Fox was able to be as effective as he was last year with a half dozen plays and a license to "just wing it" when those plays inevitably go nowhere.

I also meant to mention the drastic change in how shooting fouls are called in my last post, which is impacting a lot of the league's top scorers. The league has changed the ball and changed their rules this off-season with regards to how they're officiating contact on ball handlers. It's going to take primary ballhandlers some time to feel out those changes and find new ways to gain an edge when driving to the basket. That's not really a problem if your goal is just to bomb away from way behind the arc like Buddy... which is evidently what the league office thinks basketball is supposed to be.
I'm pretty sure Fox will play better as the season progresses; my greater concern remains that I don't know if he will ultimately prove to be a #1 guy/max player on a winning team, unless you're ok with giving him the max to be a #2 guy. I've been saying this since the offseason, so I don't think this counts as an overreaction. If he returns to 25-7 with the rest of the team playing as well as they've been it'll end the debate. But say he ends up averaging 22/6, doesn't make the all star team - do you consider that as living up to expectations as a max player? When you've invested as much as we have in a player (not just the money, but also in theory passing up on trades, drafting Luka etc), there needs to be clear benchmarks for evaluation at some point, that include team success as well as individual performance. I'm not putting all that on the current FO, but it holds true nonetheless because we gave him the max and anointed him team leader.

The difference between Fox and Trae/Harden/Dame as of now, is that their track records include winning. That's not to say that Fox is the sole variable in that equation, of course not. But it is factually correct, and it remains to be proven if Fox can be the franchise guy on a winning team. I've said before that I think Wiggins and KAT are very interesting comparisons. Hence 11 games to me aren't just 11 games of Fox not playing well - they're 11 games added to 4 seasons of Fox not being the best player on a winning team, which is what we are expecting.

Your point on trading Hali for Simmons is an interesting one though, because it's true that we're left without a go-to scorer (if we aren't already in that Fox-hole). I think most would agree that you don't want to trade both Hali and Buddy for Simmons or we'd be left with spacing issues. I guess it boils down to how good a scorer you think Hali and Mitchell can be.
 
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Harkless should not be starting, but he is....that's gotta change and on Walton. The sooner the better.
With what option?

You all talk about Walton but no Fing coach is going to start a 3 guard line-up with average to below average 3 point shooters at guard. We have no other options. Maybe some of you ought to look where the real problem lies.

Right now you have
Hield..40.3% above average
Hali….37.1% average
Davion.31.1% below average
Davis…23.3% below average
Fox…..20.4% below average
 
If Fox have been playing up to his standard, the Kings would have won some of those close games that we loss. It sucks that the best and leader of the team can't play up to the standard. I get it that superstar still sometimes struggle even the greats did but Fox can generate shots and get open look any time he want....those shots should be bread and butter for him. I also don't like that fact that Luke is going to Fox when he need a bucket knowing he's struggling. Sure he's the leader, but when he's struggling, he shouldn't be taking crucial shots. Go to someone he's hot like Hield or Barnes.
 
Fox playing zero defense
Exactly. Not only is he not making shots, his defense is terrible. He let the ballhandler do whatever he want...it's like he's only react after the fact...he doesn't anticipate anything. If you want to be a great defender, you should learn to dictate the moves ahead of time. And if you're lucky, you beat them before they beat you...but Fox ain't even trying...that's the thing about this team...they have some mentally weak defensive players. They need more than one Davion Mitchell out there.
 
I swear you're Vlade's cousin or something, or Monte kicked your dog. He's put together the best Kings team by a mile in 15 years and you're still trying to take shots.
Nope if you recall I said Vlade sucked also and couldn’t draft after Fox’s Rookie year. Took a bunch of crap from the rainbows crowd then also. Monte has the opposite problem. He puts a roster together like a Football player (which he was) putting together a fantasy team. He is an outstanding director of scouting.
 
People on this board are saying Ben Simmons is damaged goods based on a 7 game semifinal series. That’s 7/94 games or 7.4%. If 7.4% is enough to damn Simmons, 13.4% is certainly enough to worry about Fox. Math is math, you know?
I’m not among those people damning Ben Simmons. Or Fox. So at least I’m consistent. ;)
 
We are a quantity over quality team right now. A bunch of good players but no great players...yet. To me this means we have to have 4-5 guys having a good game at the same time to win. Making shots is a huge part of that but if a guy doesn't have it that night he has to contribute in other ways. Move the ball, take it to the rack, lock in defensively. Ideally the players would adjust in game on their own but this is one of the ways coaching comes into play.

Fox- star potential off to a cold start.
Haliburton-elite connector (kb02) poor start to the year looked much much better lately
MO- does ok defensively but no offense to speak of
Barnes- Having his best year playing close to all star level
Holmes- Weird year alternating between one of the most efficient players with fantastic advanced metrics and a foul prone mini uh-oh

Buddy- One of his best seasons so far. Less Buddy Blunders than usual more fire from three.
Davion- Very inconsistent offense but is coming around and finding his rhythm. Shooting well off the dribble, not shooting well in catch and shoot opportunities. Several elite defensive games, only going to get better.
TD- good TD hits threes. Bad TD misses threes. Hasn't offered much else.
Len- Good in small doses. Can be good defensively
TT- No touch around the rim. Brings physical play.

We need several of those guys to be on for us to win and we need coach to adjust on the fly to help find a group that is working. I would love to see Lou the King get spot minutes backing up Mo and competing with TD for minutes.
 
Yeah, I'm not good enough with numbers to even try to look that up. The thing to keep in mind though is that the Suns have two of their best free throw shooters in the league on their team (and Crowder is currently at 90% on the year as well) and Booker most definitely wasn't going to miss two in a row again.

Extending the game in the last minute isn't a bad plan per se but with less than ten seconds on the clock it just seems like trying to use a garden hose to put out a forest fire.
No but if he only misses 1 now you have to guard the entire floor assuming you don’t get a steal. That forces the defense to play more honest and sets you up for a more ATO options.
 
I swear you're Vlade's cousin or something, or Monte kicked your dog. He's put together the best Kings team by a mile in 15 years and you're still trying to take shots.
What is this last 15 years crap I keep hearing. And don't blame Luke! WE are 4 and 5. Who do we blame If we can't blame team or coach? Or should we just accept below average?
 
With what option?

You all talk about Walton but no Fing coach is going to start a 3 guard line-up with average to below average 3 point shooters at guard. We have no other options. Maybe some of you ought to look where the real problem lies.

Right now you have
Hield..40.3% above average
Hali….37.1% average
Davion.31.1% below average
Davis…23.3% below average
Fox…..20.4% below average
Don't have to start 3 guards. There's always options to 0 pts/game - doesn't matter - Start Len, Thompson, even Metu at Center, move over Holmes to PF, or try Bagley again, - 0 pts/game can't happen regularly.
 
We are a quantity over quality team right now. A bunch of good players but no great players...yet. To me this means we have to have 4-5 guys having a good game at the same time to win. Making shots is a huge part of that but if a guy doesn't have it that night he has to contribute in other ways. Move the ball, take it to the rack, lock in defensively. Ideally the players would adjust in game on their own but this is one of the ways coaching comes into play.

Fox- star potential off to a cold start.
Haliburton-elite connector (kb02) poor start to the year looked much much better lately
MO- does ok defensively but no offense to speak of
Barnes- Having his best year playing close to all star level
Holmes- Weird year alternating between one of the most efficient players with fantastic advanced metrics and a foul prone mini uh-oh

Buddy- One of his best seasons so far. Less Buddy Blunders than usual more fire from three.
Davion- Very inconsistent offense but is coming around and finding his rhythm. Shooting well off the dribble, not shooting well in catch and shoot opportunities. Several elite defensive games, only going to get better.
TD- good TD hits threes. Bad TD misses threes. Hasn't offered much else.
Len- Good in small doses. Can be good defensively
TT- No touch around the rim. Brings physical play.

We need several of those guys to be on for us to win and we need coach to adjust on the fly to help find a group that is working. I would love to see Lou the King get spot minutes backing up Mo and competing with TD for minutes.
I agree with this. A more concise way to say it is the Kings have a talent deficit. They can make it up by getting a star, adding quality at the wing and the center spots, or by playing team ball on offense and defense.

I like Holmes, but his best role is to be a bench big. Those crazy 50/50 swings disappear when he's beasting the other team's second unit. Jonas Valincuinas, Sabonis or Turner, or Vucievic would be a great add.
 
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