[Game] Kings v. Nuggets, Monday, 11/20 - 7 PT
- Thread starter VF21
- Start date
Without watching the game, the boxscore shows the Kings did ok on offense but got run out of the gym on defense.
I don't understand Joerger much, but if he's going to play this type of rotation, I'd rather him reverse it on the head with veterans coming off the bench to spell the younger players. They're already losing games, so what does it matter.
What happened with Cauley Stein tonight? A reversion to the mean......
I don't understand Joerger much, but if he's going to play this type of rotation, I'd rather him reverse it on the head with veterans coming off the bench to spell the younger players. They're already losing games, so what does it matter.
What happened with Cauley Stein tonight? A reversion to the mean......
The Effort Police
Starter
Joerger favorite, like Matt Barnes last year. Boom, there's your answer.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I'm sure even he's a bit surprised. He's still good offensively, you have to give him that, the issue is where is it leading the team? They have designed a grit and grind pace around young players built to run with Zbo as the centerpiece.
Suicide King
Starter
This will come off as , well, something.
If we are tanking, would you be so mad?
It's hard to discern between incompetence and orchestrated ineptitude.
I won't claim every loss is purposeful, but if you were being honest, as the FO, would not the best pick be of utmost importance? If speaking of the current meta of the NBA, don't discount the upcoming changes to draft percentages. Last chance .
If we are tanking, would you be so mad?
It's hard to discern between incompetence and orchestrated ineptitude.
I won't claim every loss is purposeful, but if you were being honest, as the FO, would not the best pick be of utmost importance? If speaking of the current meta of the NBA, don't discount the upcoming changes to draft percentages. Last chance .
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I also want to clarify something as to why I think not playing the young players, or not shrinking down to a smaller rotation sooner than later will cause major issues in the rebuild. It has everything to do with how Vlade went about his rebuild. He almost did the anti-Philly in a way. Instead of moving down in the draft to secure future assets he instead moved down to acquire more young players. Those picks have now been spoken for and that value is now assigned to an individual who is being judged by what they are doing now. The Kings are a little light on future assets and picks don't necessarily swing in value the way a player will if they are being jerked around, or stuffed. You can easily take a decent first round prospect and drive them low enough to not even garner a 2nd round pick depending on usage. I know they are trying to build a "team" and whatever, but they need to reassess the situation here and realize they are also in a REBUILD scenario. Developing players is one thing, but the focus needs to be as much about roster management as it is on court management. They need remember where they are here and where they need to head.
Reverend
Bench
I would say that's an extremely fair analysis and on par with what I have seen as well. I guess trying to play devils advocate here I'm thinking maybe Joeger will start the season out like this and based on production over a period of time, grant some players more and less minutes accordingly. That is ofcourse my hope for how this will be handled. We have a ton of young kids that need developing and to get them all the time they need, while giving the vets time means they have to look at platoon line ups early on. I agree in the sense that if we are still looking at the same types of minutes and rotations come All Star Break then we have made next to no progress at all because you are absolutely right about it hurting individual statistics and effecting the perceived value of these young kids to other GM's. At this point, all we can do is wait and see how things shake out but based on the guys track record of developing young guys in the D League im willing to give him a longer leash to work with. A bigger concern to me would be the high post sets we had been seeing but it seems the team is gravitating away from that as of recently and maybe that looks like more of the end game product Joeger and Vlade envision the team playing like, just hope they aren't so stubborn that they realize the talent determines the system, you don't try to make a square peg fit in a round hole.
Suicide King
Starter
Do you want wins, or losses?
I respect what your saying but your kind of all over the place. We have seen stints of most every player on the roster in a starting or secondary role. I think everyone is getting a good look by coach Joerger. Roster construction might be more what you are alluding to, and to that, I say the veterans will likely be re-assessed when the time comes.
gunks
Hall of Famer
One needs to also consider the trade value of the vets as far as playing time goes.
We probably don't want to ship out any kids without giving them a longer look (WCS being a possible exception), but I reckon certain playoff teams could find a use for guys like Hill, Z-bo, Kosta, and maybe even Vince.
Nobody is going to trade for a geezer who isn't getting minutes, GMs will just assume they're done. Z-bo still puts up stats so he still has some trade value.
I think the minutes distribution is going to be wildly different post trade deadline. Vets might get shipped out, young players may finally break out (so far none have - besides bench Buddy).
I get the Joeger frustration. But there are a lot of factors to consider. If he's still riding Z-bo in the latter third of the season I might be annoyed, but not now. It's not like Skal has been wowing anyone in his limited minutes.
We probably don't want to ship out any kids without giving them a longer look (WCS being a possible exception), but I reckon certain playoff teams could find a use for guys like Hill, Z-bo, Kosta, and maybe even Vince.
Nobody is going to trade for a geezer who isn't getting minutes, GMs will just assume they're done. Z-bo still puts up stats so he still has some trade value.
I think the minutes distribution is going to be wildly different post trade deadline. Vets might get shipped out, young players may finally break out (so far none have - besides bench Buddy).
I get the Joeger frustration. But there are a lot of factors to consider. If he's still riding Z-bo in the latter third of the season I might be annoyed, but not now. It's not like Skal has been wowing anyone in his limited minutes.
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John Galt
Starter
if it is a brilliant tank job, time to ditch it?
eMBarkat10n
Bench
I hate losses. I can live with close ones, though...We're a young team. We have shown that we can at least hang with the good teams (well, most of them at least...). What we need to establish, now, is our method of closing winnable games. Oh how I can't wait until this group can get a little bit of experience under their belt.....Hang on, fellow Kings fans...This is gonna be one heck of a ride! And, yes, it's always good to be a Kings fan. Always.
DeMoN
Bench
Zbo is ****ing up Skal and WCS progression by existing. Need to get to a point where Zbo can be a sixth man. Skal and WCS should be starting. Skal has not taken any good effect to coming off bench.. playing at Center is dramatic when we have WCS.
Maybe trade WCS? Skal playing center is a project, and I don't agree with rushing him in it. His value is great down there though. Maybe ride it out and hope his shots drop? Regardless, your starting center not coming back in the game is weird and i worry its messing with Skal.
Maybe trade WCS? Skal playing center is a project, and I don't agree with rushing him in it. His value is great down there though. Maybe ride it out and hope his shots drop? Regardless, your starting center not coming back in the game is weird and i worry its messing with Skal.
gunks
Hall of Famer
WCS was starting and he was trash. Skal has been even worse in his limited minutes.
I wouldn't be broken up if we sell high on WCS and get a decent return. I don't think his value is super high though, so I'd still rather ride it out and see if he figures out how to "try". He could still be a good player if he wants to be...
Sorry gang, I don't think we'll have any instant gratification with these kids. Reke and Cuz spoiled us.
Suicide King
Starter
No reason to be looking for instant gratification. A lot more games left to lose. It is what it is.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Me personally I want the young players on the team to win every game they play in and have a significant impact in them, but when you look throughout the history of the NBA I am well aware that it's not very likely.
In a rebuild you can't really put winning as your primary focus because that odds are that no combination of what you have is going to really yield any significant wins anyway. It's all about individual player development and asset value. Those two things will hopefully position you to win in time. And his good look is causing almost everything on the roster right now to look bad. I'm not totally sure that the roster construction in terms of the young players is workable or not, we haven't seen enough of them in a true starters sense to find out. However, as I am saying if that proves to be an issue the devaluation will hinder whatever trade possibilities there may be out there. The young players may eventually prove to be incapable and still not be able to attain much on or off the floor, but the process of discovery should begin sooner than later IMO. The deadline is earlier this year and frankly the team has looked terrible outside of a few inhuman effort games.
Now, Joerger could fully commit to the veterans and it would still make more sense because perhaps someone like Hill would get a chance to produce to a level more expected of him. If I were the GM though I would be against it at the moment. I think the reality is Hill and Zbo were both overpaid in the summer and therefore even at their peak performance finding a trade for them with any real positive asset coming in return is less likely, or at least less likely than one of the young players breaking out.
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SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Yep, succeeding in tanking is not worth losing all value, or confidence in the young players on the roster already.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
We don't know that for sure hough. Reke was given carte blanche. He started every game, and played full time stars minutes. He was the lone positive on a team that didn't win hardly at all. The NBA has a ROY award for a reason. It gives first year players something to strive for because it's supposed to be about individual player development at that stage.
The past two or three offseason's of signing guys 30+ who are on a massive decline or never been anything more than bench players has really killed us. We pissed away huge money on guys with no upside in Hill(only starting level player on a good team)/Temple/Tolliver/Rondo/Afflalo/Marco/Barnes/KK (he's been great this year)/VC/Z-Bo instead of going after players ready to hit there primes or building towards like a JayMcal Green and these sort of players.
I really think we should try emulate what Indiana Pacers have done this year so far next season, they play super uptempo and have surrounded there young core of Turner/Oladipo/Sabonis/TJ Leaf with all guys who can actually play and are still somewhat in there primes and easily starting 5 level players in Thad Young/Bogdanovic/Collison and quality bench guys in Sir Lance/Corey Joseph. Like us they have there own Z-Bo in Al Jefferson who never plays (due mainly to good coaching) unless serious foul trouble or Turner/Sabonis miss games.
I really think we should try emulate what Indiana Pacers have done this year so far next season, they play super uptempo and have surrounded there young core of Turner/Oladipo/Sabonis/TJ Leaf with all guys who can actually play and are still somewhat in there primes and easily starting 5 level players in Thad Young/Bogdanovic/Collison and quality bench guys in Sir Lance/Corey Joseph. Like us they have there own Z-Bo in Al Jefferson who never plays (due mainly to good coaching) unless serious foul trouble or Turner/Sabonis miss games.
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His first stint was really good but than it looked like the lights went out completely and the effort and fire evaporated
Larry David
Starter
I don’t know what is more puzzling:
1. That 65% of poll voters believe that Willie can long term play PF along side another big man.
2. That constantly changing when, how often and with whom most of the young players play is beneficial for their development.
3. That folks aren’t more concerned about the fact that the team often mails in massive portions of games before the calendar turns to December.
I’m not worried about losses because they are in a tear down. But the fans buying the “this is normal for a rebuilding team” are kidding themselves. The rotations have the potential to both make this group of young players losers AND stunt their development. What’s happening reflects that the GM coach and owner both have no experience with the phase the team entered in February and are still generally not good at their jobs.
1. That 65% of poll voters believe that Willie can long term play PF along side another big man.
2. That constantly changing when, how often and with whom most of the young players play is beneficial for their development.
3. That folks aren’t more concerned about the fact that the team often mails in massive portions of games before the calendar turns to December.
I’m not worried about losses because they are in a tear down. But the fans buying the “this is normal for a rebuilding team” are kidding themselves. The rotations have the potential to both make this group of young players losers AND stunt their development. What’s happening reflects that the GM coach and owner both have no experience with the phase the team entered in February and are still generally not good at their jobs.
I was at the game and sat down close to the court. WCS is the one screwing up his own progression. I watched over and over when the shots went up, WCS just watched flat footed and Jokic was the opposite. Jokic was hanging on the perimeter but when the shots went up he crashed the boards. WCS could have had a positive affect on the game instead he contributed mightily to the loss.
When watching Skal away from the ball battle for position, he's just not strong enough. Doesn't matter how many minutes you give the guy, he's still not going to be strong enough until he adds more muscle. That's not a minutes thing.
I don't think the issue with people has anything to do with Skal coming in and being more productive than ZBo right now. It's more about developing the guy because he's not going to turn into a good player by waving the towel on the bench. He has a ton to work on but I'd rather watch him struggle and show flashes than watch ZBo do anything out there. We aren't going to be able to trade ZBo for anything this year so there's no point in letting him rack up stats like we need Hill to do.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
Skal is a project and he will take some work if the team really wants to get something out of him. They just have to be patient and he has to be willing to put in the work and maybe the team can make him a productive NBA player down the road.
jcassio
Starter
I agree. Joerger is not using Z-Bo properly. I get that the team has trouble scoring, and Z-Bo can score. But his defense is awful. He'll bang, but he has no lateral movement and he can't jump. When he gets the ball in the paint, he never passes to an open man. The proper way to use him would be to have him come off the bench in spurts when we otherwise can't get a basket. Slow the game down momentarily and let Z-Bo get us 2-3 baskets. Then send him back to the mentor-bench and let the young guys rip. I don't friggin care if this results in fewer wins this season. We shouldn't be giving Z-Bo so many minutes with so many young guys who need developing.
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jcassio
Starter
What kind of analytics tell you that it has to be a "top 4" pick as opposed to a "top 3" or "top 5"? Where do you get your certainty? Can I have some?
Folsomkingsfan
Starter
Same here. He's become such a company man that it is hard to respect his opinion. Anyone who disagrees with the way Dave Joerger is coaching or the way Vlade is building the team immediately gets put on blast. Anyone who called his show disagreeing with Cousins trade was called out for the lack of basketball intelligence. If you disagree with the front office, you are not worthy of Grants time.
Folsomkingsfan
Starter
He made Joerger look better than he was in Memphis and for that Joerger feels like he owes him one last chance at a good contract.
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