[Game] Kings @ Spurs, 11/10/21 5:30pm Pacific, 8:30pm Eastern

[SacTownKid]

There are probably about 10 guys in the whole league that can completely change the trajectory of a team, every one else is just a piece.

Fox is a good piece. If Fox returns to last seasons form, we start getting two or three other guys going at the same time and we still aren’t winning I would be onboard with some kind of change. Not sure what kind just yet. We will have options.

I don't even think it's that many. LeBron? Durant? Kawhi? (although his first year with the Clipps put a ding in that record). I can't really think of any else at the moment.

 

[iowamcnabb]

I don't even think it's that many. LeBron? Durant? Kawhi? (although his first year with the Clipps put a ding in that record). I can't really think of any else at the moment.

I’d add Curry, Giannis, Doncic, Joker and in a slightly different way CP3. To be clear, I meant guys that can add a ton of wins to pretty much any team. The guys who can completely carry a franchise to contender status on their own is probably in line with your list.

 

[Chupacabra]

Carried a team on his back to what exactly? You acting like the dude is Lebron or something. Fox has "carried" this team about as much as KAT or Wiggins have "carried" the Timberwolves

Or Lavine and the Timberwolves/Bulls. Or Anthony Davis in N.O. before he got Cousins as his partner. Or Devin Booker until he got CP3. All examples of players who are not winners. Sorry, had to point it out.

 

[SacTownKid]

I’d add Curry, Giannis, Doncic, Joker and in a slightly different way CP3. To be clear, I meant guys that can add a ton of wins to pretty much any team. The guys who can completely carry a franchise to contender status on their own is probably in line with your list.

I'm not so sure on some of those others but they make a difference to some extent. CP3 I can go with but he's not carrying a team without talent anywhere likely at this point in his career. Giannis, yep, I can agree. Still, it is indeed a very short list. Not being one, or potentially being one depending on situation isn't anything to dismiss anyone over.

 

[SacTownKid]

Or Lavine and the Timberwolves/Bulls. Or Anthony Davis in N.O. before he got Cousins as his partner. Or Devin Booker until he got CP3. All examples of players who are not winners. Sorry, had to point it out.

Carrying a team and winning a bunch don't always coincide. I don't think there is any doubt this team wouldn't have even sniffed the play in without him last year. There is no question Cuz carried this team when he was here as well. Davis did in NO too. Lavine and Booker, did as well.

 

[Chupacabra]

Carrying a team and winning a bunch don't always coincide. I don't think there is any doubt this team wouldn't have even sniffed the play in without him last year. There is no question Cuz carried this team when he was here as well. Davis did in NO too. Lavine and Booker, did as well.

Was pointing out that those are all really good players that didn't win until they got the right pieces. Same would be true for Fox.

 

[mac]

Carrying a team to the wins you did get, or carrying them to being more competitive than they should be is still carrying them. Especially when putting up superstar productivity. KAT did. Wiggins, nah. Close at times though. And the Kings did compete for the window last year, mostly because of that carrying.

Small sample size, but the team was 7-7 without Fox last year, and 5-5 this year with him not putting up "superstar productivity".

I actually completely agree with iowamcnabb's point that he's just a piece. A good piece. But good pieces aren't untradeable, that's the whole point. Someone else brought up AD - going into his 5th season, AD had been a 3x all star and made all NBA, all rookie and all defense. Fox has literally not made anything aside from top 5 in his draft class. And if the argument is - Fox would be an all-star if not for there being so many other good guards, then it means that finding a good guard isn't that difficult and you again should be OPEN to trading him. If things continue the way they are after 12 games, I highly doubt Fox makes the all star team this year too.

 

[mac]

Or Lavine and the Timberwolves/Bulls. Or Anthony Davis in N.O. before he got Cousins as his partner. Or Devin Booker until he got CP3. All examples of players who are not winners. Sorry, had to point it out.

I talked about AD in my previous post. Booker was an all-star prior to CP3; so if Fox makes the all star team this year then fair enough. But even then, Kings fans just thought/think Booker was a glorified chucker because they didn't win - why then would you treat Fox differently as some untradeable superstar?

Edit: and to add, Lavine signed for $78M/4years. That's less than Buddy Hield and Barnes, let alone Fox's $160/5. A contract like that means he isn't expected to be the #1 guy and leader, and you have the flexibility to have him as your second or third best player. Anything more and it's a huge bonus for the team. If we weren't paying Fox max money or passing on trades and drafting Luka because of him I dare say I'd care a whole lot less about his production and relative value in the league.

 

[serbiangoat]

Or Lavine and the Timberwolves/Bulls. Or Anthony Davis in N.O. before he got Cousins as his partner. Or Devin Booker until he got CP3. All examples of players who are not winners. Sorry, had to point it out.

You mean when the Pelicans got Mirotic? They were rubbish with Cousins until he blew out his knee/achilleas than they were decent

Small sample size, but the team was 7-7 without Fox last year, and 5-5 this year with him not putting up "superstar productivity".

I actually completely agree with iowamcnabb's point that he's just a piece. A good piece. But good pieces aren't untradeable, that's the whole point. Someone else brought up AD - going into his 5th season, AD had been a 3x all star and made all NBA, all rookie and all defense. Fox has literally not made anything aside from top 5 in his draft class. And if the argument is - Fox would be an all-star if not for there being so many other good guards, then it means that finding a good guard isn't that difficult and you again should be OPEN to trading him. If things continue the way they are after 12 games, I highly doubt Fox makes the all star team this year too.

They went like 10-10 or something the year before last I keep bringing it up a lot last season but again sample size was to small apparently. The problem with discussing FOx/Cousins is that there is no time horizon and until they have the perfect coach/ref respect/easy schedule/supporting cast, you are crazy to trade them because they will win championships else where. Than once Cousins goes and Fox is injured the corpse of Z-Bo/CoJo/Delone Wright "carry" the team to the same/similar w/l record.

 

[sactowndog]

???

Yeah Steph is one of the greatest scorers of all time. So? Doesn't change the fact he's one of the heaviest USG players in the league.

I don’t find 18th in usage high for the 2nd leading scorer.

 

[sactowndog]

One correction: the majority of our guards were good to great 3pt shooters last season and this season they've only played 12 games.

And they were poor the year before that one. So which is the statistical anomaly?

 

[sactowndog]

There are probably about 10 guys in the whole league that can completely change the trajectory of a team, every one else is just a piece.

Fox is a good piece. If Fox returns to last seasons form, we start getting two or three other guys going at the same time and we still aren’t winning I would be onboard with some kind of change. Not sure what kind just yet. We will have options.

That isn’t always true. Sometimes the opportunity passes you by.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

On the other hand, if you are absolutely rotation material but your coach holds you out of the rotation for no good reason, only to finally ask you to enter the game in the final minutes of a blowout after having already inserted the non-rotation substitutes, I can see why you'd not be terribly happy about it.

Understandable why he’d be upset, but he still needs to learn how to be a professional. Quite frankly, a lot more of today’s generation of players are in the same boat.

At one point in time not all that long ago, a player refusing to go into a game would have been headline news in the sports world. Unfortunately nowadays it’s barely even noteworthy. Sad.

 

[hrdboild]

And they were poor the year before that one. So which is the statistical anomaly?

At this point I think we need to be clear on who we're actually talking about. We have 5 guards who are getting significant minutes this season. Fox is a poor 3pt shooter and has been for all but one season. Buddy is one of the best shooters in league history. Haliburton was elite last season and wasn't in the NBA the year before. Terrance Davis is in his third year and shot 37% last year and 38% the year before. Those are good numbers. Davion Mitchell is a rookie but he was a knock down shooter in college last year. That's everyone. So how are most of them poor shooters? One of them is and the rest are good to great with Mitchell being a bit of an unknown.

 

[kingdivac]

At this point I think we need to be clear on who we're actually talking about. We have 5 guards who are getting significant minutes this season. Fox is a poor 3pt shooter and has been for all but one season. Buddy is one of the best shooters in league history. Haliburton was elite last season and wasn't in the NBA the year before. Terrance Davis is in his third year and shot 37% last year and 38% the year before. Those are good numbers. Davion Mitchell is a rookie but he was a knock down shooter in college last year. That's everyone. So how are most of them poor shooters? One of them is and the rest are good to great with Mitchell being a bit of an unknown.

Yes Fox probably shouldn't be taking 3's, but the problem really occurs when his mid-range game is poor which isn't all the time. When he misses the runners, turn-arounds, or start-and-stops at too high a clip the offense is suffering - that was the Pacer game. Several players had bad games offensively, not just Fox. The Pacers won the game on defense.

 

[kb02]

Yes Fox probably shouldn't be taking 3's, but the problem really occurs when his mid-range game is poor which isn't all the time. When he misses the runners, turn-arounds, or start-and-stops at too high a clip the offense is suffering - that was the Pacer game. Several players had bad games offensively, not just Fox. The Pacers won the game on defense.

Defenses are sagging on Fox when he has the ball. He's often going 1 vs 3 when he goes into the paint. Fox needs to counter that by making his threes more consistently (probably not recommended, because I doubt he'll ever shoot greater than 35%) or changing his tempo/speed/cadence, which should create space for passing to teammates or for creating space and scoring as defenders move. I think the most natural next step for him is to change his tempo/speed/cadence and to score. It's his wiring and it's also because he has below average passing and vision for a point guard.

 

[hrdboild]

Defenses are sagging on Fox when he has the ball. He's often going 1 vs 3 when he goes into the paint. Fox needs to counter that by making his threes more consistently (probably not recommended, because I doubt he'll ever shoot greater than 35%) or changing his tempo/speed/cadence, which should create space for passing to teammates or for creating space and scoring as defenders move. I think the most natural next step for him is to change his tempo/speed/cadence and to score. It's his wiring and it's also because he has below average passing and vision for a point guard.

Well you're already wrong about the first point because he has shot better than 35% for a full season. He shot 37% from deep on 232 attempts in the 2018-2019 season. He's also finished in the top 10 in assists per game in 2 out of 4 seasons which is by definition above average.

 

[sactowndog]

At this point I think we need to be clear on who we're actually talking about. We have 5 guards who are getting significant minutes this season. Fox is a poor 3pt shooter and has been for all but one season. Buddy is one of the best shooters in league history. Haliburton was elite last season and wasn't in the NBA the year before. Terrance Davis is in his third year and shot 37% last year and 38% the year before. Those are good numbers. Davion Mitchell is a rookie but he was a knock down shooter in college last year. That's everyone. So how are most of them poor shooters? One of them is and the rest are good to great with Mitchell being a bit of an unknown.

Buddy is very good. Haliburton shot well last year.

37% is average. Davis is having a down year
Davion shot poorly from the free throw line which historically is a better indicator. So far he is shooting as those numbers would predict. Fox we agree upon.

 

[kb02]

Well you're already wrong about the first point because he has shot better than 35% for a full season. He shot 37% from deep on 232 attempts in the 2018-2019 season. He's also finished in the top 10 in assists per game in 2 out of 4 seasons which is by definition above average.

Assists are a byproduct of usage. Look at Russ' assists numbers.
One season at 37% vs a number of seasons below 35%. The mean is more representative of his 3pt shooting than the one outlier season.

 

[steelevt]

Defenses are sagging on Fox when he has the ball. He's often going 1 vs 3 when he goes into the paint. Fox needs to counter that by making his threes more consistently (probably not recommended, because I doubt he'll ever shoot greater than 35%) or changing his tempo/speed/cadence, which should create space for passing to teammates or for creating space and scoring as defenders move. I think the most natural next step for him is to change his tempo/speed/cadence and to score. It's his wiring and it's also because he has below average passing and vision for a point guard.

Why fox needs to do is stop shooting step back 3s when defenders are in him. I remember reading a stat where his 3pt % were way higher with spot up 3s with his feet set vs off the dribble. Everyone knows he can get to the bucket. Keep doing what you’re good at. Then if they sag off others to clog the lane, drive and kick.

 

[dude12]

Good lord, the nerds with data. It has generally made baseball worse and it’s going to do the same in hoops if you turn over the game to data collectors.

 

[The_Jamal]

I don’t find 18th in usage high for the 2nd leading scorer.

He's 10th in USG and 0.6 usg rate separates him and 6th place KD. What are you talking about?

 

[The_Jamal]

It really is just as simple as anyone who thinks this season is a large enough sample to determine anything longterm about any one of our players doesn't understand statistics in the slightest

 

[ESP47]

It really is just as simple as anyone who thinks this season is a large enough sample to determine anything longterm about any one of our players doesn't understand statistics in the slightest

I think we have enough data to know that Harkless is cooked and has been for a while now. He's been declining like he's 5 years older than he really is and that didn't just start this season. TT is also not a very good player anymore. Not as bad as Harkless but you're happy if he just doesn't do anything to hurt the team at this point.

Boucher's minutes have been cut in Toronto from 24mpg last year to 14mpg this year. I'm not sure why but I'd like to see McNair make a play on him. He would have an immediate impact.

 

[Jones2006]

Someone responded sarcastically to others criticizing Fox by essentially saying that others are saying Fox is at fault for everything ... Well no - But he is the LEADER of the team bar none as the experienced guard & best player. And his leaderships is terrible in terms of effort, low IQ plays, & defense - He sets the example for the team ... And that has nothing to do with how much points he has or if he hits his shots.

1 Example - Check out this play: Not boxing out

Len has a tremendous block on Young's dunk - During this Fox is literally standing right beside the paint, and doesn't box out anyone ... The man he should have rotated to & boxed out gets the offensive board & Len somehow recovers after blocking Young to then give a foul ... The box score shows a foul on Len & nothing on Fox, but it was specifically Fox's action that led to FT's for San Antonio. He obviously saw Moe went to contest along with Len - but he opted to just stand there and do nothing. Kobe doesn't do that, Paul doesn't do that ... If Fox is serious about being a leader & winning games, he's got to show more urgency, better body language, and higher IQ plays. The Kings were down 13 at this point in the 3rd quarter too, so the game was still very winnable.

I am sure if someone took the time to find other plays like this they'd find dozens from Fox & some other guys of low IQ ball &/or a lack of effort.

*** I'll also add - the reaction from the Kings bench is very telling. Len blocks Young & literally no player jumps up or has a reaction ... Compare this to when Len blocked Valanchunis 4 games ago & the bench went crazy. We know the Bagley incident since then - I feel there may be more turmoil we don't know about. Guys just don't seem as animated/together the last few games. Something's odd.

 

[mrlaze]

*snip*
I feel there may be more turmoil we don't know about. .... Something's odd.

This.
Something changed more than just a bad loss/poor showing. I thought they had decent momentum considering the early schedule. The easy part comes and everyone falls apart/changes? I don't get it.

 

[SacTownKid]

Small sample size, but the team was 7-7 without Fox last year, and 5-5 this year with him not putting up "superstar productivity".

I actually completely agree with iowamcnabb's point that he's just a piece. A good piece. But good pieces aren't untradeable, that's the whole point. Someone else brought up AD - going into his 5th season, AD had been a 3x all star and made all NBA, all rookie and all defense. Fox has literally not made anything aside from top 5 in his draft class. And if the argument is - Fox would be an all-star if not for there being so many other good guards, then it means that finding a good guard isn't that difficult and you again should be OPEN to trading him. If things continue the way they are after 12 games, I highly doubt Fox makes the all star team this year too.

We saw games live that Fox carried them. It happened. Go back through the game threads, you can read it. He's even been the deciding factor in some games he didn't play well. Down the stretch he sealed the fate of the Pels in that game hammering home the middle pick and roll.

Him being another piece or not wasn't the question. Him carrying the team was and he most certainly did with his production and HUGE moments on both ends last year.

 

[Kingster]

Deal with it lol. You lose 7 mill, have a less talented scrub start in your place and g leaguers get in games before you by a coach who doesn't deserve to coach, then out of know where with your team getting crushed asked to go in while the scrubs before you already ruined he game and deal with that. Should he have went in, probably. But why? Honest question? He still gets paid, his rotation stays the same and he doesn't risk injury. Would you? If you would then I have a bridge to sell you

He is a scrub. He has to earn his way out of scrubdom. He doesn't deserve a thing. He doesn't deserve playing time. He doesn't deserve being in the rotation. Nothing. At this point he doesn't deserve our respect. He better start showing some respect for the team that he plays for and the league that he plays for. Otherwise, he's going to be playing in some smoke-filled arena in Turkey next year.

 

[SacTownKid]

He is a scrub. He has to earn his way out of scrubdom. He doesn't deserve a thing. He doesn't deserve playing time. He doesn't deserve being in the rotation. Nothing. At this point he doesn't deserve our respect. He better start showing some respect for the team that he plays for and the league that he plays for. Otherwise, he's going to be playing in some smoke-filled arena in Turkey next year.

People don't deserve 40 million a year to throw a ball through an orange hoop. So? And everything you say is true conceptually speaking, but who cares and how does that mentality help the franchise? I'm sure the fans on this board only care about that. You have player fans but those are small minority I'm sure. Look, if I have an asset I don't want, I would do everything in my power to shine that up ASAP. It's too late now to fix any of this but it's like eliminating your mortal enemy by tying them to you and jumping off a mountain. Where does that get you exactly? Cut your nose off to spite your face.

 

[kb02]

It really is just as simple as anyone who thinks this season is a large enough sample to determine anything longterm about any one of our players doesn't understand statistics in the slightest

Weak signals are where the money is. While people wait for more data, people who actually do know how to turn early data into action are jumping ahead of everyone else.