Kings & Sonics - same level of talent?

VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#31
#31
Kings113 said:
This isn't a shot or anything, but why do you even post here? You pretty much wrote off and bashed the Sacramento Kings. ;)
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Why does he even post here? Because he's one of the longest-tenured members of this forum and well respected AND a Kings fan.

The kind of comment you made above is not acceptable, whether kidding or serious.

VF21
Moderator
 
K

Kings113

All-Star
#32
#32
Sorry, that's just what I got from parts of his post (I know he's a long-time member though, could tell since I started here). Yeah, I wasn't serious.

Edit it if you feel it's not okay.
 
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VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#33
#33
Kings113 said:
Sorry, that's just what I got from parts of his post (I know he's a long-time member though, could tell since I started here). Yeah, I wasn't serious.

Edit it if you feel it's not okay.
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Having concerns about our team as it's currently structured does NOT make someone lose their status as a Kings fan. Some members of this forum are most grounded than others. Some are very optimistic, others suffer from piksimism. The vast majority fall somewhere in between. All viewpoints are accepted. The main thing is that we don't turn our discussions from the topic at hand into personal fights/arguments/altercations, etc. with each other.

I know it's pretty much the way of the land on most other boards. The fact that we don't allow it around here just might well be one of the main reasons Kingsfans.com is the most active and popular Kings message board on the Internet.

Keep it about the topic and you'll do fine. Personal commentaries/observations about another member aren't germane to the discussion anyway...
 
KP

KP

Starter
#34
#34
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
I'm not at all convinced that Sacramento is "clearly better" than Seattle. They have a superstar player in Ray Allen, whom I'd rather have than any player currently on the Kings roster, and a team that well constructed to compliment him. They play better defense, and have players who aren't afraid of contact. Their bench may be suspect, but it's hardly worthless. Barring an unprecedented meltdown, or inept coaching of epic proportions, I don't see any way that Seattle doesn't make the playoffs.

And neither do I see any indication that the Kings are "clearly" better. We may, in fact, be better, but it's not like there's the kind of separation between us and them that there is between San Antonio and us...
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I have to agree with Slim. Ray allen is clearly better than any one player on the Kings, Lewis is almost as good as any. Seattle obviously is a better defensive and rebounding team, thats not even up for debate. That bench RayAllen34 listed isn't very good, I thought he was joking at first... we have more depth and maybe more talent spread across our complete roster. As far as playoff experience and team chemistry... Seattle developed a little of both last year, they looked pretty focused and together as they were mopping the floor with our Kings(something several people on this board stated could/would not happen). Let's not get to ahead of ourselves before the season even starts. We have a good starting 5, and some talent off the bench, but this team still has to prove they can win night in and night out in the regular season, much less the playoffs.
 
allrightythen

allrightythen

Starter
#35
#35
I think a lot has changed since that playoff series last year, almost too much to use it as a guage for comparing the two teams. The Kings have redone thier bench and part of the starting lineup and are only a shadow of the team that lost to Seattle in the POs last year. Not making excuses, Seattle was the better team at the time and they clearly showed that. Don't know if things are still the same. I think we've upgraded a few positions since that series and if healthy can be much more effective on both ends of the court.

Seattle hasn't added much. Not saying they can't beat us or anything, just can't say that they improved. They were and still are a pretty talented team that does a lot of things well, but coaching can mean so much and we know very little about their coach. I would say there is little to no way to really compare the two teams before I see them head-to-head.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#36
#36
Well, there is an interesting underlying point that our overall taslent level hasn't raised as much as might claim:

In/Out
Bonzi = Cat
Reef >> Darius
Sampson < Tag
Garcia = Evans
Hart << Bobby

Our one big gain is the Reef/Darius exchange. Otherwise its a wash at best. We've gotten more talented, but we lost a lot of pieces in the process.

Now that said, there are two things 1) we might have a team better balanced for postseason success with both more post players and the tougher OG starter in Bonzi; and 2) often overlooked is the fact we were likely more "talented" than Seattle last year, we just lacked organization, balance, and the sort of dirty work scrappers you need to win anything with. This year we still lack those things at a championship level, but we've gotten better than we were at the end of the year, and Seattle has if anything stepped back. They are going to have a very hard time duplicating their cinderella run last year, lost their coach, seem to still ahve a lot of chemistry issues etc.
 
KP

KP

Starter
#37
#37
allrightythen said:
I think a lot has changed since that playoff series last year, almost too much to use it as a guage for comparing the two teams. The Kings have redone thier bench and part of the starting lineup and are only a shadow of the team that lost to Seattle in the POs last year. Not making excuses, Seattle was the better team at the time and they clearly showed that. Don't know if things are still the same. I think we've upgraded a few positions since that series and if healthy can be much more effective on both ends of the court.

Seattle hasn't added much. Not saying they can't beat us or anything, just can't say that they improved. They were and still are a pretty talented team that does a lot of things well, but coaching can mean so much and we know very little about their coach. I would say there is little to no way to really compare the two teams before I see them head-to-head.
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Good post.
 
allrightythen

allrightythen

Starter
#39
#39
Brick, I'd add Kevin to that list with Garcia and say that we are a little better at that position, or at least the same with much more room for growth. Also, as little as B-Jax played last year I might switch him with House then I think its a definite improvement.

Now, my biggest question is which team from last year are we comparing here, the one from the beginning of the year, the one from the middle, or the one that actually played in the Seattle series cause it kept changing?
 
KP

KP

Starter
#41
#41
Take out some of those injuries and guys just coming back, and it could have been a little different series ...such is the life of a Kingsfan.
 
F

Fillmoe

Guest
#44
#44
yall lost the kings killer jerome garbage bag james.... LOL... yall gonna get swept up if we meet in the playoffs
 
kingsfan916

kingsfan916

Starter
#46
#46
Yoda said:
Hey now...watch it...

1 boarderline allstar (who shouldnt have been)- very inconsistent. Lets see what Ray Allen does now that it is not a contract year.
Luke is a below average NBA point guard
That depth you are talking about is a pipe dream.

McMillan meant more to this team then you I think you realize. He made something out of nothing last year.
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I agree with you. In my opinion we are much greater than the Sonics. BTW Who is their new head coach?
 
HndsmCelt

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#50
#50
Bricklayer said:
Well, there is an interesting underlying point that our overall taslent level hasn't raised as much as might claim:

In/Out
Bonzi = Cat
Reef >> Darius
Sampson < Tag
Garcia = Evans
Hart << Bobby

Our one big gain is the Reef/Darius exchange. Otherwise its a wash at best. We've gotten more talented, but we lost a lot of pieces in the process.

Now that said, there are two things 1) we might have a team better balanced for postseason success with both more post players and the tougher OG starter in Bonzi; and 2) often overlooked is the fact we were likely more "talented" than Seattle last year, we just lacked organization, balance, and the sort of dirty work scrappers you need to win anything with. This year we still lack those things at a championship level, but we've gotten better than we were at the end of the year, and Seattle has if anything stepped back. They are going to have a very hard time duplicating their cinderella run last year, lost their coach, seem to still ahve a lot of chemistry issues etc.
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The problem with your analysis is you asume tallent to be a generalized pool rather than spesific skills that complement, conflct with or are redundant to in terms of organizational structure and you miss the analysis as comparison of starting 5+ Bench
Look at it THIS way and tell me it's still a wash"
1 Bibby=Bibby
2 Bonzi=/>Cat (I contend his complementary tallents make more valuable than cat)
3 Pedja=Pedja
4 Reef>Darius or Thomas
5 Miller=Miller (but better with a low post PF on the floor with him)
6 Hart<Bobby (WHEN Bobby plays) but Hart>House
7 Kenny>Darius
8 Skiner > Tag
9 Martin 05> Martin 04
10 Corless at forward > Corless at Center
 
Rockin' in the Free World

Rockin' in the Free World

G-League
#51
#51
For some reason I can't get over how good a team could be created if we just combined the two teams together...that being neither here nor there Kings get the edge for now, not by as much as I'd like to think though.
 
ParniValjak

ParniValjak

All-Star
#52
#52
Bricklayer said:
In/Out
Bonzi = Cat
Reef >> Darius
Sampson < Tag
Garcia = Evans
Hart << Bobby
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Sampson < Tag would only be true if Tag actually played often enough for us to make a case of it. As things stand right now, Sampson is likely to get as much game time as Ostertag which we all know is not going to be much. Based on playing time alone, I would call this a wash. Tag might have more size and he might be better defender BUT he hardly ever played so his value to us non-existant. Sampson waves the towel as well as Tag ;)

Hart << Bobby. On talent yes. No question about it BUT Bobby hardly took the court for us in the last 2 years. For a fair chunk of last season our back up PG was Eddie House and IMHO overall Hart > House. A fit and healthy Bobby is miles ahead of Hart but the truth is, Bobby was hardly ever healthy in the last 2 years. I call this one a wash as well.

Our big upgrade is Reef. He is a better player than Thomas and MUCH better than Darius.

We are a lot more balanced this year as well. Last year we were one trick pony. A jump shooting team and no one on the roster had a good enough, consistnet post game. Now we have Bonzi and SAR who bring enitrely another dimension to our team.

I think we have improved on last year. We have more talent and much deeper roster, compared to the one that got knocked out of the play offs by the Sonics. Sonics on the other hand lost talent and replaced it with much lesser talent. They lost AD and replaced him by Rick Brunson. Hardly an upgrade ;)

We won't even go into the effect that a change of coach will potentially have.
 
Jerryaki

Jerryaki

Starter
#53
#53
Bricklayer said:
In/Out
Bonzi = Cat
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I disagree with that, unless of course Bonzi goes awol, then it's Bonzi < Cat. But as a contributor, he brings more, more toughness, more height (thank god), and a post game. He's also passing decently enough during preseason, which is always a plus on this team.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#54
#54
Wasn't the question -- intiial assertion was that the Sonics had as much TALENT as us. Not balance. Not intangibles. Not warm and fuzzies. But talent. And talentwise, we're somewhat improved from the end of last year, but nothing extraordinary.

I actually agree about the crew being more balanced, indeed mentioned it in the initial post, but that was not the question. We make much about the talent of our acquisitions without pondering the talent of our losses. Natural enough for a fan I suspose, but still not an accurate before and after assessment.
 
Jerryaki

Jerryaki

Starter
#55
#55
Bricklayer said:
Wasn't the question -- intiial assertion was that the Sonics had as much TALENT as us. Not balance. Not intangibles. Not warm and fuzzies. But talent. And talentwise, we're somewhat improved from the end of last year, but nothing extraordinary.
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it wasn't the original question, but i still disagree with the assessment that cat = bonzi at this point. a number of other posters had started dissecting the kings roster only (without regards to seattle), so i was only chipping in on that vein.
 
G

gocmen

G-League
#56
#56
I'll look at this from the overall team perspective.

I think when looking at the team, comparing individuals by position does not give you the right answer, like Bibby > Luke, Bonzy < Ray, etc. Sometimes a guy in one position will kill you a given night. You may have 4 better players on the other positions, but that won't help. Ray, last year, was the man. Even though JJ looked good during playoffs (only against Kings), it was Ray who won the games for us.

I also don't think depth charts would do any good. We may have a great 2nd unit, or you may have that... but Kings had great depth for years and Lakers beat them w/ 2 guys (and Horry's 3 pointer).

A team is good when it works like a machine. A talented player for a team is the smart guy who knows how to play with his teammates, rather than how to play with the ball. Of course, the second one is also very important, but not as important as the first one. And yes, sure, this is only my opinion.

We have lost some pieces this year. Half of our coaching staff is gone: Nate and Demopoulos to Portland and Casey to Minnesota. From last year's Sonics coaching staff, now there are 3 head coaches around. We lost AD as well. Also JJ is gone, but I don't think that's actually a loss. It can be considered as addition by subtraction (and for JJ's case even w/o adding anything it is a plus). Sure, he was good against the Kings in the playoffs, and in some other games here and there. He was a good chair catcher as well, but he is lazy, does not have any passion and his basketball IQ is below average. Divac toyed him many times with his 2 yards/hour speed and 2" elevation. If Brad was not injured, I don't think JJ would be as effective.

We depend on Luke's and Collison's development this year. If Luke turns into a nice PG, then we are going to be fine. But if not, then we do not have any AD to back him up and we may get into a disaster. On the other hand, big man wise, I think we'll be at least at the same level of last year.

Oh, yes... do we have the same talent? I don't know :) . I think I need to wait and see.
 
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F

Freakout

G-League
#57
#57
Talent seems pretty equal to me. Losing JJ and AD will hurt Seattle more than their fans want to admit though. I stand by my prediction that the Sonic's miss the playoffs. Everything clicked last season for them and chances of that happening again are very slim. Many players had contract years last season and unfortunately a few didn't get what they were looking for. Evans and Rad was strung along and had to sign their QO. Fortson has already wore out his welcome and been bad mouthing the team. The Chemistry isn't going to be there.
 
Evenstar

Evenstar

Starter
#58
#58
i'd say overall talent the kings are better. the sonics have the more talented player in ray allen, but after that i would say the kings are much more talented. in my opinion peja and rashard are at best a wash, but i'd give peja the slighter edge as he has done more things at THIS point in time then rashard has.

but having more talent doesn't always mean being a better team. we aren't as good at rebounding, certainly not more then defense.

that being said, i still think the kings are going to overall have a better record then the sonics, and at this point in time i'd consider the sonics a borderline playoff team. they just aren't going to surprise everyone like they did last year. denver is going to win that divison running away IMO. but a lot can change between now and the end of the season. i'll have to wait and see them play for a month or 2 to make a better decision on this matter.
 
K

Kings113

All-Star
#59
#59
The NW division in general is going to be fierce. A bunch of scrappy/good/competitive teams in there I think. The Jazz/Wolves will be nipping at the heels or on with the Sonics/Nuggs. Would love to see Portland get it together and gel and all that, they have a fun team there, and a really good crop of young guys. Could use a veteran or two though.
 
K

Kings241

Guest
#60
#60
Kings113 said:
The NW division in general is going to be fierce. A bunch of scrappy/good/competitive teams in there I think. The Jazz/Wolves will be nipping at the heels or on with the Sonics/Nuggs. Would love to see Portland get it together and gel and all that, they have a fun team there, and a really good crop of young guys. Could use a veteran or two though.
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The only team that will go to the playoffs from the NW would be the Nuggets. Wolves only have an old injured Garnett left, Jazz dont seem to have the dept and injuries hurt them every year, Sonics will lack chemistry and defense this year cause they lost their 6th man and coach for no one in return, and lets not even mention the Blazers. Although they do have a bright future.:rolleyes:
 
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