Kings search for a small forward continues.

funkykingston said:
I had high hopes for Donte coming back and grabbing that position decisively. It would push Casspi to the bench where his energy and fire could make him a key contributor and possible sixth man.

But that didn't happen and Casspi (while seeming like a better option than Greene so far) also hasn't clearly won the job.

For a team with a budding star and a potential laden rookie big I just don't see drafting another SF as a great option. Because even if that guy pans out, you've set your expectations for the team back a year while you wait for him to develop. This team is also incredibly young already and a solid and dependable (if unspectacular) vet would be a nice piece.

The Kings will be better this year but still struggle. Which means they will likely end up with another top 10 pick in the draft. Along with expiring contracts and tons of caproom, that gives them HUGE flexibility to make a very attractive trade offer at the deadline for a SF that would stabilize the lineup.

I'd still rather see Greene or Casspi really step up to the plate, but Petrie is still a great talent evaluator and shrewd bargainer so I'm confident that with good chips he could swing a great deal for this team.
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All things considered, we'd be a heckuvalot better off if either Greene or Casspi steps up their play. Then Petrie won't have to do something from a position of weakness.
 
I dont really have a problem with Greene or Omri not getting minutes if they dont produce.

This next season, we should hopefully be moving away from the rebuilding process. That means we're going for wins. We arnt going to be making the playoffs (at least it is highly unlikely), but now that we have the core pretty much built, I think we should stop rooting for Lins over here (and thank god for that!).

If some old vet outplays our youngins than he deserves to get minutes over said youngins. As long as we arnt seeing any DNP-CDs I'm fine with Greene and Omri getting spot minutes until they show they deserve more. I also think it is waaaay to early to write off either of them as not being our long term solution. Omri (despite the selfishness) shows flashes of being a pretty legit 3. Once Greene drops the extra lbs, he's going to be a physical specimen of a 3 again.

This is an entirely different situation than we were in a couple seasons ago. For example: Kenny Natt and JT. That season we were clearly not going anywhere but down, we needed a high draft pick, and JT was showing that he was very solid. Meanwhile, Natt is playing Mikki Moore ahead of him, despite the fact that the scrub was barely getting us 4 rebounds per 30 minutes. That was bad. But now, on the uptick, we have to go for wins... And it is pretty debatable whether or not Greene/Om are outplaying the scrubs. When they show something, they'll get time. Westphal handled their minutes relatively well last season.
 
gunks said:
I dont really have a problem with Greene or Omri not getting minutes if they dont produce.

This next season, we should hopefully be moving away from the rebuilding process. That means we're going for wins. We arnt going to be making the playoffs (at least it is highly unlikely), but now that we have the core pretty much built, I think we should stop rooting for Lins over here (and thank god for that!).

If some old vet outplays our youngins than he deserves to get minutes over said youngins. As long as we arnt seeing any DNP-CDs I'm fine with Greene and Omri getting spot minutes until they show they deserve more. I also think it is waaaay to early to write off either of them as not being our long term solution. Omri (despite the selfishness) shows flashes of being a pretty legit 3. Once Greene drops the extra lbs, he's going to be a physical specimen of a 3 again.

This is an entirely different situation than we were in a couple seasons ago. For example: Kenny Natt and JT. That season we were clearly not going anywhere but down, we needed a high draft pick, and JT was showing that he was very solid. Meanwhile, Natt is playing Mikki Moore ahead of him, despite the fact that the scrub was barely getting us 4 rebounds per 30 minutes. That was bad. But now, on the uptick, we have to go for wins... And it is pretty debatable whether or not Greene/Om are outplaying the scrubs. When they show something, they'll get time. Westphal handled their minutes relatively well last season.
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I haven't seen our scrubs outplay Casspi or Greene yet to be honest. I did like the alternative view above stated by kpm308 gives a fresh prespective on it I haven't really thought of. I would rather there be no "what if's" in my brain which would mean major minutes for both guys at the 3 position - and if they continue to not play as expected maybe it might be time to start looking via trade for some viable replacements a package of possibly Landry + Casspi/Greene should be an attractive package for some teams but I won't look into alternative options right now
 
kpm308 said:
This reminds me exactly of what the Blazers went through a couple years ago with Outlaw and Webster. Going into the 06-07 season Portland was just coming off the draft of Roy, Aldridge, Rodriguez and was in full youth movement mode, so obviously Webster, who was the 6th pick in the draft the year before, is penciled in as the opening day starter. Also looking for major minutes was the 6-9 super athletic 22 year old Outlaw. After a 1-4 start to the season, who takes the starting job over both of them for the rest of the season? 29 year old Ime Udoka, who was lucky to even get an invite to their training camp a couple months earlier.

It sounded much the same up in Portland back then as it does in Sacramento now, McMillan was stunting the growth of the two young small forwards by playing an old undrafted no future guy. (As an interesting side note, McMillan was Westphal's assistant prior to taking over for him in Seattle, so the similarity with the personnel handling may not be a coincidence)

In 07-08, Portland fans finally got to see what they were asking for, Webster as the starting 3 with Outlaw as a big minute backup, and it was largely a dissapointment. Both played very well at times, but it was obvious that the SF position was the weak link of that team, and there were constant rumors about bringing in a guy like Battier if they were looking to take the next step as a team. Luckily for the Blazers Webster went down for the entire 08-09 season and Batum was inserted, and even as a rookie, the difference was obvious.

Looking back now a few years later at the careers of Webster and Outlaw, I don't see how any amount of playing time would have made a difference for these two. Although on paper they both should have been a good fit for the Blazers, neither could ever put together the consistency or could fill the role that the team needed.

As much as I would like to see the Kings with Donte starting,(the possibility of a 6-6,6-7,6-11,6-11,6-11 starting lineup is just so exciting to think about), I am starting to come to the realization, and I think this is what we're seeing from Westphal, that while Omri and Donte are both good players who can do a lot of things to help win games, neither are the long term answer at SF for this team. When the answer is there, it becomes obvious, like in Portland with Batum. If Westphal doesn't think either of these guys aren't the right fit, by all means should he be trying out any other options available, especially in preseason.
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Very well said. High marks for this post.
 
maybe we can call Toronto about taking another international superstar.
This time from Israel for maybe one of their SF.

Kleiza played well in the world cup. And Julian Wright should hitting his prime very soon.
 
Soooo...

Do you think LA will give us Ron Ron back if we give them Omri, Donte and Bo-Jax to work their front office? ;)
 
MassachusettsKingsFan said:
I just wish Westphal be consistent with what he says and does. He isnt, and thats frustrating as a fan and a player.

He always says that he wants players to step up and earn the job .. no gifts and all that other BS. What does he do when it comes time to pay up and hold his end of the deal? start a player for no reason. He admits Greene played best, and yet doesnt want to start him. His reason for starting Wright? to give him a look. Sounds like a gift to me ..

Greene didnt start when u barely played him in the first game to "give him a look".

Of all our SF's, Wright is the last guy that needs to play in the pre season. He's a finished product. I seriously have my doubts that Westphal is the right guy for this team. I like him .. but we are fragile right now. The team is about to move and the young guys are in that critical learning stage. This year could make or break some of these guys. And I wish I had more confidence in Westphal then I do.
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Greene's probably in the penalty box for a while because of coming into camp out of shape. Not starting a few games seems like a very small price to pay for the "crime".
 
bajaden said:
Ok, lets say your right. Then who wins the battle. According to what I've read, Wright is suspossed to be the best defender, but so far hasn't shown to be that great a shooter. Maybe it was suspossed to be Greene, but he showed up overweight. Last year it was Desmond Mason, who could play good defense, but alas, no offense and the Kings were continually starting every game in a hole because of it. Greene finally had a nice game both defensively and offensively. And his reward? Back to the bench, and lets start Wright. Just what is it we don't know about Wright? Other than seeing how he might play with a starting unit that probably won't be the starting unit come the real season.

From where I'm standing, I can see why Greene and Casspi are confused. The coach says one thing and rewards another. Beleive me, I'm not into instant gratifacation based on one pre-season game. But this has been going on with these two players for a while now. I'm not the coach, but I would have rewarded Greene with a start just to see if he could sustain what he did in the last game. You could still get Wright his minutes by sitting Casspi for a game.
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If I'm Westphal, I'm still burning about Greene coming into camp overweight. That's a cardinal sin. It's wrong on so many levels, especially for a youngin like Greene. So just because the competition is weak at the three position doesn't mean Greene can waltz back into the starting lineup when he loses a few pounds. He doesn't get off that easily. If Casspi was playing well, I'm sure Westphal would have loved to send a message to Greene and the entire team that such laziness is unacceptable by starting Casspi. But Casspi isn't playing well, so Westphal sends the message in a different way.
 
It's puzzling to me why people judge Greene so harshly. Yes, it would be really bad had he come back with 30 extra lbs of flab, but according to the reports, most of the weight was muscle (unless I missed something). I would say it was probably an honest mistake and lack of communication with the coaching staff, but it's hardly a cardinal sin.
 
Kingster said:
If I'm Westphal, I'm still burning about Greene coming into camp overweight. That's a cardinal sin. It's wrong on so many levels, especially for a youngin like Greene. So just because the competition is weak at the three position doesn't mean Greene can waltz back into the starting lineup when he loses a few pounds. He doesn't get off that easily. If Casspi was playing well, I'm sure Westphal would have loved to send a message to Greene and the entire team that such laziness is unacceptable by starting Casspi. But Casspi isn't playing well, so Westphal sends the message in a different way.
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I don't understand why you say "Casspi isn't playing well", so far his stats from the last 3 games are:
11pts, 7reb, 4ast (24min)
4pts, 5reb, 2ast (22min)
6pts, 7reb, 4ast (25min)

So, he's not torching the net, but he got a very good contribution in the other aspects, and according to PW, that's what he wants from the SF position.
 
To me it would be an assumption that Greene was "lazy" to come into camp overwieght. He may have just misunderstood some offseason workout instructions. Or, perhaps he was trying to set himself apart at the position, or to give himself a rebounding advantage.

I'd prefer to get more information before coming to such a conclusion. We may never get that information, so then I'd be forced to withhold judgement perpetually.
 
The Hammer said:
To me it would be an assumption that Greene was "lazy" to come into camp overwieght. He may have just misunderstood some offseason workout instructions. Or, perhaps he was trying to set himself apart at the position, or to give himself a rebounding advantage.

I'd prefer to get more information before coming to such a conclusion. We may never get that information, so then I'd be forced to withhold judgement perpetually.
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I have to agree with you on this one. Its easy to assume that he was just overweight because of being lazy and not working out. But whereas no one has actually stated thats the case, I think we have to give him the benefit of the doubt. In any event, he came in weighing more than the Kings wanted him to and that has to fall on someone. Either lack of commuication from the top, or Greene just taking it upon himself to do something he may have thought would be approved by the staff. To me the larger question is whether the Kings have anyone that monitors the players during the offseason. I know for a fact that a lot of the teams, expecially the better one's, monitor their players progress throughout the summer.
 
Asaf said:
It's puzzling to me why people judge Greene so harshly. Yes, it would be really bad had he come back with 30 extra lbs of flab, but according to the reports, most of the weight was muscle (unless I missed something). I would say it was probably an honest mistake and lack of communication with the coaching staff, but it's hardly a cardinal sin.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with you on this one. Its easy to assume that he was just overweight because of being lazy and not working out. But whereas no one has actually stated thats the case, I think we have to give him the benefit of the doubt. In any event, he came in weighing more than the Kings wanted him to and that has to fall on someone. Either lack of commuication from the top, or Greene just taking it upon himself to do something he may have thought would be approved by the staff. To me the larger question is whether the Kings have anyone that monitors the players during the offseason. I know for a fact that a lot of the teams, expecially the better one's, monitor their players progress throughout the summer.
Click to expand...

To me it would be an assumption that Greene was "lazy" to come into camp overwieght. He may have just misunderstood some offseason workout instructions. Or, perhaps he was trying to set himself apart at the position, or to give himself a rebounding advantage.

I'd prefer to get more information before coming to such a conclusion. We may never get that information, so then I'd be forced to withhold judgement perpetually.
Click to expand...

Wait, did Asaf, baja, and Hammer all just agree on something?

qft
 
SuperPowerMultiPly said:
I don't understand why you say "Casspi isn't playing well", so far his stats from the last 3 games are:
11pts, 7reb, 4ast (24min)
4pts, 5reb, 2ast (22min)
6pts, 7reb, 4ast (25min)

So, he's not torching the net, but he got a very good contribution in the other aspects, and according to PW, that's what he wants from the SF position.
Click to expand...

Westphal doesn't think he's playing well; otherwise he would be starting and getting tons of minutes. Look, if Casspi can't start with Greene being in the doghouse because of his weight, what does that tell you?
 
The Hammer said:
To me it would be an assumption that Greene was "lazy" to come into camp overwieght. He may have just misunderstood some offseason workout instructions. Or, perhaps he was trying to set himself apart at the position, or to give himself a rebounding advantage.

I'd prefer to get more information before coming to such a conclusion. We may never get that information, so then I'd be forced to withhold judgement perpetually.
Click to expand...

Maybe he was lazy. Maybe he was clueless. Maybe both. In any case, he was a bad boy. And it's not like there were other Kings who had any misperperceptions or confusion about what kind of shape they had to be in. Greene is alone on this island.
 
kingsboi said:
^ I highly doubt that, sir.....
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You don't think the Kings could use Nocioni of old? I think they'd love a young guy that plays tough physical defense, comes up with loose balls and picks up 13/6 in 26m while shooting a high percentage from the 3pt line. I sure as hell don't want the 2010 version of Noc, but I think old Noc would be a very good fit
 
bajaden said:
I have to agree with you on this one. Its easy to assume that he was just overweight because of being lazy and not working out. But whereas no one has actually stated thats the case, I think we have to give him the benefit of the doubt. In any event, he came in weighing more than the Kings wanted him to and that has to fall on someone. Either lack of commuication from the top, or Greene just taking it upon himself to do something he may have thought would be approved by the staff. To me the larger question is whether the Kings have anyone that monitors the players during the offseason. I know for a fact that a lot of the teams, expecially the better one's, monitor their players progress throughout the summer.
Click to expand...

I guess you have to give the benefit of the doubt to someone, either the player or the coach. I'll give it to the coach because Donte's had motivation issues in the past. Who knows. I certainly woudn't put it past this organization to drop the ball on a lot of things.
 
mr. moustache said:
I guess you have to give the benefit of the doubt to someone, either the player or the coach. I'll give it to the coach because Donte's had motivation issues in the past. Who knows. I certainly woudn't put it past this organization to drop the ball on a lot of things.
Click to expand...

See, given that there seems to be a pattern of communication problems, I have no problem assuming that Westphal at least shares some of the blame here.
 
mr. moustache said:
You don't think the Kings could use Nocioni of old? I think they'd love a young guy that plays tough physical defense, comes up with loose balls and picks up 13/6 in 26m while shooting a high percentage from the 3pt line. I sure as hell don't want the 2010 version of Noc, but I think old Noc would be a very good fit
Click to expand...

Even the Nocioni of old I wouldn't like for this team. He is and always will be a chucker to me, can give you good games but a lot of bad games as well. Give me Nicolas Batum, I wish we could of made a draft day trade for him, I remember Geoff Petrie was high on him, I see why.
 
I think everybody is getting just a tad ahead of themselves writing off our young SFs and assuming they have magically regressed into scrubhood over the course of a summer.
 
Kingster said:
Westphal doesn't think he's playing well; otherwise he would be starting and getting tons of minutes. Look, if Casspi can't start with Greene being in the doghouse because of his weight, what does that tell you?
Click to expand...

1. It tells me nothing since it's preseason and this is the time for the coach to try different rotations and lineups.
2. He got 28 minutes last game.
3. As i wrote before, I don't care who will start, what matters is who will play more and in what part of the game(as of not in garbage time).
4. All I'm saying is that Casspi is playing well.
5. Last game: 11pts, 9reb, 2ast, 3blk.
 
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