Kings search for a small forward continues.

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I just wish Westphal be consistent with what he says and does. He isnt, and thats frustrating as a fan and a player.

He always says that he wants players to step up and earn the job .. no gifts and all that other BS. What does he do when it comes time to pay up and hold his end of the deal? start a player for no reason. He admits Greene played best, and yet doesnt want to start him. His reason for starting Wright? to give him a look. Sounds like a gift to me ..

Greene didnt start when u barely played him in the first game to "give him a look".

Of all our SF's, Wright is the last guy that needs to play in the pre season. He's a finished product. I seriously have my doubts that Westphal is the right guy for this team. I like him .. but we are fragile right now. The team is about to move and the young guys are in that critical learning stage. This year could make or break some of these guys. And I wish I had more confidence in Westphal then I do.

 

[Entity]

I have been on Donte's side through all this. Now I am thinking Casspi to start. Or we work a trade Casspi and Carl Landry for Galinari. Keep Marcus Landry for depth. Then let Greene get the SF/PF backup role until Whiteside developes. JT to start at PF

 

[The Hammer]

I just wish Westphal be consistent with what he says and does. He isnt, and thats frustrating as a fan and a player.

He always says that he wants players to step up and earn the job .. no gifts and all that other BS. What does he do when it comes time to pay up and hold his end of the deal? start a player for no reason. He admits Greene played best, and yet doesnt want to start him. His reason for starting Wright? to give him a look. Sounds like a gift to me ..

Greene didnt start when u barely played him in the first game to "give him a look".

Of all our SF's, Wright is the last guy that needs to play in the pre season. He's a finished product. I seriously have my doubts that Westphal is the right guy for this team. I like him .. but we are fragile right now. The team is about to move and the young guys are in that critical learning stage. This year could make or break some of these guys. And I wish I had more confidence in Westphal then I do.

It's the preseason.

 

[PurpleHaze]

Westphal seems to have an idea of what he's looking for in a SF. At least I hope so, because I have no idea what he's looking for.

Everytime I've heard PW answer Q about SF he's emphasized defense first and last for that position on the floor. Let's face it, whoever get starter role will often be defending best player/scorer on other team. I think he feels poor defending Kings have enough scorers and it seems rebounding has been addressed with recent stock piling of big men. Whoever wins out in SF competition will be because coach thinks they play D better, more hard nosed on that end and more consistent than the "other guy." Also, matchups will no doubt dictate in who gets most minutes for Kings at SF this season. I think Westphal is spot on in assessing his teams glarring defensive weakness and knowing SF role will be critical. Otherwise, maybe we just throw up more zone this season trying a GSW or Phoenix style of simply trying to outscore everyone.

 

[bajaden]

Everytime I've heard PW answer Q about SF he's emphasized defense first and last for that position on the floor. Let's face it, whoever get starter role will often be defending best player/scorer on other team. I think he feels poor defending Kings have enough scorers and it seems rebounding has been addressed with recent stock piling of big men. Whoever wins out in SF competition will be because coach thinks they play D better, more hard nosed on that end and more consistent than the "other guy." Also, matchups will no doubt dictate in who gets most minutes for Kings at SF this season. I think Westphal is spot on in assessing his teams glarring defensive weakness and knowing SF role will be critical. Otherwise, maybe we just throw up more zone this season trying a GSW or Phoenix style of simply trying to outscore everyone.

Ok, lets say your right. Then who wins the battle. According to what I've read, Wright is suspossed to be the best defender, but so far hasn't shown to be that great a shooter. Maybe it was suspossed to be Greene, but he showed up overweight. Last year it was Desmond Mason, who could play good defense, but alas, no offense and the Kings were continually starting every game in a hole because of it. Greene finally had a nice game both defensively and offensively. And his reward? Back to the bench, and lets start Wright. Just what is it we don't know about Wright? Other than seeing how he might play with a starting unit that probably won't be the starting unit come the real season.

From where I'm standing, I can see why Greene and Casspi are confused. The coach says one thing and rewards another. Beleive me, I'm not into instant gratifacation based on one pre-season game. But this has been going on with these two players for a while now. I'm not the coach, but I would have rewarded Greene with a start just to see if he could sustain what he did in the last game. You could still get Wright his minutes by sitting Casspi for a game.

 

[asakkings]

I really hope we start Greene at SF, his D and decent 3pt shooting is very useful. Casspi can come off the bench to bring the scoring punch.

 

[kingsboi]

I don't like what Westphal is doing with his "line ups" as much as most of you. He is a difficult coach to understand sometimes, he randomly doesn't play or start a young player when he decides they didn't do what he asked of them. He would yank Donte or Omri for doing a mistake and that would be the last of them. I can't stand to see a different starting line up every couple of games because there is no continuity with the starting 5 and you can never build team chemistry that way. Until we get a consistent starting 5 on the floor and a 8 or 9 man rotation, maybe then we can start talking that Paul knows what he is doing and has his players set in stone both starting and off the bench. It's no wonder the team struggles on offense and defense at times. When you don't play enough together and have so many different line ups, it's just confusing and you can't mesh with everybody you play with. If Westphal doesn't like one of Donte or Omri, we should look to trade one of them by the all-star break if they don't show signs of life.

 

[The Hammer]

My personal take is at this point Westphal doesn't want to cater to "rewarding" players with starts, at least in the pre-season. He probably had his mind made up that he was going to go through all the options in a starting spot and see how people played together.

The only thing I can't figure out at this point is why Donte was so far over what the coaching staff wanted him to be at weight wise. I have a hard time putting that on Donte... unless he really was just filling out naturally. He apparently grew some to, no?

I have a feeling Donte would have been in the lead for the the starting spot had he come to camp with more quickness/less bulk. Perhaps PW is waiting to see if he can burn that off and get back to his defensive prowess guarding the twos and threes.

 

[gunks]

I'd like to think that Westphal's lineups are just to take a look at certain players, especially ones that may or may not be with us when the season starts. We know we're gonna have both Greene and Omri. I wouldnt be surprised if one is traded by the deadline for a vet, but neither is gonna get cut.

Last season, both the players were very inconsistant. Omri looked like a stud, and then looked like a dud. Greene's up and downs were game to game. It would be nice if Westphal would just let the young players work through it, but oh well.

Donte's weight is worrying. 260?! No way he can play the 3 that big. Ron Ron and LeBron can play that big because they are freaks of nature and somehow able to maintain quickness at that size. And I dont want Donte at the 4 either. He sucks at rebounding. Like, Rashard Lewis level of sucking at rebounding.

Omri just needs to realize that he's never going to be the man. If he wants to be the man he needs to be OK with being on the second unit and playing a Ginobili role (which he'd be perfect for with his aggressiveness) and even then he'd have to defer more than he'd like. If he gets the start that he wants, he's not the first option. Not even the 4th option.


SIGH....I imagine the FO would like to keep both our young 3s. Here's to hoping Landry can improve his play enough to be trade bait and get us a vet 3.

 

[rainmaker]

While I agree it appears Westphal could be giving both Donte and Omri mixed signals, and I hope he settles on a starter sooner rather than later at sf, it's still too early for me to get worked up about it. He's still trying to find what combinations he likes, and to a certain extent how much C Landry and Wright will be part of the rotation, and where exactly they fit in with the team. While we may not completely agree with how Westphal is going about it, lets not forget it's only Oct 9th.

One reason he might not have started Omri or Donte yet at this point is that he wouldn't want it to appear that he has settled on one of them as a starter over the other this early in camp. It will be much more telling who's starting at the 3 the final two preseason games, not the first two. I think some on here are reading into the lineup changes too much at this point.

 

[kingsboi]

I think your giving way too much credit to Westphal. I'm not putting him down but we had or were tied with GS for most different starting line ups throughout the season. This is the same guy that started Desmond Mason & Sean May that just made basketball ugly to watch other than Reke. I will not give him credit for being a good or bad coach just quite yet. I need to see him use this depth we have this year to our advantage and have a consistent 8-9 man rotation. Not play Darnell Jackson one game for 20 min. and then goes DNP for 10 straight games, or playing Hassan for 5 minutes and yanking him as soon as he messes up.

 

[fnordius]

I'll make a wild guess as what Westphal wants:
1) consistent and effective D
2) making a good pass rather than jacking up some wild brick

Greene may have lost too much speed to do (1) very well for now, but Casspi's not that far from doing both. His stat line in the last game was unimpressive (like almost all of his teammates), but so far in the preseason he's played 47 minutes, shot 6/15, and made 6 assists, 12 rebounds and 1 TO. Though there may have been a few bad plays, those aren't numbers that scream "black hole."

Both guys had periods last year when they played really well, I'm thinking that PW is trying to get them both back on track, and I approve. Both should be doing better than last year, and arguably aren't.

I don't expect to see good lineups during the preseason anyway, I expect to see a lot of minutes go to the most marginal players. I'll save complaints (if needed) for the regular season.

 

[mac]

From what I gathered from Westphal's post-practice talk, he's starting Wright to get a look at him in-game, since he didn't get to play in the Clippers game.

It's preseason so I'm not going to bother about starting line ups. In the regular season Tyreke isn't going to play 9 minutes in the 1st quarter and sit out the rest of the game.

I think we just have to wait and let PW get a good feel of the team on the court (we've only played 2 games!). I am most certain that Omri or Donte will end up as the starting SF. It could also be a chance for Westphal to show Omri and Donte what he wants from the SF position if Wright plays well. Like Westphal could go (from the bench) "see omri, that's what i want you to do when you're playing with Tyreke and DMC"

 

[Telemachus]

I'd like to think that Westphal's lineups are just to take a look at certain players, especially ones that may or may not be with us when the season starts. We know we're gonna have both Greene and Omri. I wouldnt be surprised if one is traded by the deadline for a vet, but neither is gonna get cut.

I wouldn't fret about it too much unless it continues during the season. This is what MOST teams do during the preseason. Look at the Clippers for example. They played their starters for most of the game against the Kings, and then game most of them very few minutes the next night against the Warriors (Kaman didn't play at all).

If I had to guess, I would say that Westphal is trying to decide between Casspi and Greene. As a result, he has gone out of his way not to start either of them. I think both Wright and M. Landry will be on the Kings' roster, but also think it is unlikely that either of them will be in the starting lineup come the regular season.

 

[SacTownKid]

I'll make a wild guess as what Westphal wants:
1) consistent and effective D
2) making a good pass rather than jacking up some wild brick

Greene may have lost too much speed to do (1) very well for now, but Casspi's not that far from doing both. His stat line in the last game was unimpressive (like almost all of his teammates), but so far in the preseason he's played 47 minutes, shot 6/15, and made 6 assists, 12 rebounds and 1 TO. Though there may have been a few bad plays, those aren't numbers that scream "black hole."

Both guys had periods last year when they played really well, I'm thinking that PW is trying to get them both back on track, and I approve. Both should be doing better than last year, and arguably aren't.

I don't expect to see good lineups during the preseason anyway, I expect to see a lot of minutes go to the most marginal players. I'll save complaints (if needed) for the regular season.

I thnk what Westphal wants more than anything is some experience. I think the Kings make a move to pick up a more veteran presence.

 

[kingsnation]

Omri looked like a stud, and then looked like a dud.

Ugh. I'm so tired of hearing this. Yes, he did. But how about we also not forget that this was his first season in the NBA. First time in the USA. First time playing 82 games. Etc. Etc. Etc.

His second half should not dictate how we view him for this year.

 

[Prince_XY]

From what I gathered from Westphal's post-practice talk, he's starting Wright to get a look at him in-game, since he didn't get to play in the Clippers game.

It's preseason so I'm not going to bother about starting line ups. In the regular season Tyreke isn't going to play 9 minutes in the 1st quarter and sit out the rest of the game.

I think we just have to wait and let PW get a good feel of the team on the court (we've only played 2 games!). I am most certain that Omri or Donte will end up as the starting SF. It could also be a chance for Westphal to show Omri and Donte what he wants from the SF position if Wright plays well. Like Westphal could go (from the bench) "see omri, that's what i want you to do when you're playing with Tyreke and DMC"

I kind of feel or think the same.

 

[bajaden]

Here's a short interview with Donte on some of these issues from Purple Panjandrum. At least it answers whether management wanted him to put on weight or not.

http://hardcourtmayhem.com/kings/?p=747

 

[The Hammer]

It's amazing the 20-35 lb. swings in weight that Donte can pull off in short amounts of time. He's now 240!

 

[kpm308]

This reminds me exactly of what the Blazers went through a couple years ago with Outlaw and Webster. Going into the 06-07 season Portland was just coming off the draft of Roy, Aldridge, Rodriguez and was in full youth movement mode, so obviously Webster, who was the 6th pick in the draft the year before, is penciled in as the opening day starter. Also looking for major minutes was the 6-9 super athletic 22 year old Outlaw. After a 1-4 start to the season, who takes the starting job over both of them for the rest of the season? 29 year old Ime Udoka, who was lucky to even get an invite to their training camp a couple months earlier.

It sounded much the same up in Portland back then as it does in Sacramento now, McMillan was stunting the growth of the two young small forwards by playing an old undrafted no future guy. (As an interesting side note, McMillan was Westphal's assistant prior to taking over for him in Seattle, so the similarity with the personnel handling may not be a coincidence)

In 07-08, Portland fans finally got to see what they were asking for, Webster as the starting 3 with Outlaw as a big minute backup, and it was largely a dissapointment. Both played very well at times, but it was obvious that the SF position was the weak link of that team, and there were constant rumors about bringing in a guy like Battier if they were looking to take the next step as a team. Luckily for the Blazers Webster went down for the entire 08-09 season and Batum was inserted, and even as a rookie, the difference was obvious.

Looking back now a few years later at the careers of Webster and Outlaw, I don't see how any amount of playing time would have made a difference for these two. Although on paper they both should have been a good fit for the Blazers, neither could ever put together the consistency or could fill the role that the team needed.

As much as I would like to see the Kings with Donte starting,(the possibility of a 6-6,6-7,6-11,6-11,6-11 starting lineup is just so exciting to think about), I am starting to come to the realization, and I think this is what we're seeing from Westphal, that while Omri and Donte are both good players who can do a lot of things to help win games, neither are the long term answer at SF for this team. When the answer is there, it becomes obvious, like in Portland with Batum. If Westphal doesn't think either of these guys aren't the right fit, by all means should he be trying out any other options available, especially in preseason.

 

[The Hammer]

This reminds me exactly of what the Blazers went through a couple years ago with Outlaw and Webster. Going into the 06-07 season Portland was just coming off the draft of Roy, Aldridge, Rodriguez and was in full youth movement mode, so obviously Webster, who was the 6th pick in the draft the year before, is penciled in as the opening day starter. Also looking for major minutes was the 6-9 super athletic 22 year old Outlaw. After a 1-4 start to the season, who takes the starting job over both of them for the rest of the season? 29 year old Ime Udoka, who was lucky to even get an invite to their training camp a couple months earlier.

It sounded much the same up in Portland back then as it does in Sacramento now, McMillan was stunting the growth of the two young small forwards by playing an old undrafted no future guy. (As an interesting side note, McMillan was Westphal's assistant prior to taking over for him in Seattle, so the similarity with the personnel handling may not be a coincidence)

In 07-08, Portland fans finally got to see what they were asking for, Webster as the starting 3 with Outlaw as a big minute backup, and it was largely a dissapointment. Both played very well at times, but it was obvious that the SF position was the weak link of that team, and there were constant rumors about bringing in a guy like Battier if they were looking to take the next step as a team. Luckily for the Blazers Webster went down for the entire 08-09 season and Batum was inserted, and even as a rookie, the difference was obvious.

Looking back now a few years later at the careers of Webster and Outlaw, I don't see how any amount of playing time would have made a difference for these two. Although on paper they both should have been a good fit for the Blazers, neither could ever put together the consistency or could fill the role that the team needed.

As much as I would like to see the Kings with Donte starting,(the possibility of a 6-6,6-7,6-11,6-11,6-11 starting lineup is just so exciting to think about), I am starting to come to the realization, and I think this is what we're seeing from Westphal, that while Omri and Donte are both good players who can do a lot of things to help win games, neither are the long term answer at SF for this team. When the answer is there, it becomes obvious, like in Portland with Batum. If Westphal doesn't think either of these guys aren't the right fit, by all means should he be trying out any other options available, especially in preseason.

Very, very well said. Great perspective.

 

[Prince_XY]

Very, very well said. Great perspective.

I agree. Great perspective.

 

[Kingster]

This reminds me exactly of what the Blazers went through a couple years ago with Outlaw and Webster. Going into the 06-07 season Portland was just coming off the draft of Roy, Aldridge, Rodriguez and was in full youth movement mode, so obviously Webster, who was the 6th pick in the draft the year before, is penciled in as the opening day starter. Also looking for major minutes was the 6-9 super athletic 22 year old Outlaw. After a 1-4 start to the season, who takes the starting job over both of them for the rest of the season? 29 year old Ime Udoka, who was lucky to even get an invite to their training camp a couple months earlier.

It sounded much the same up in Portland back then as it does in Sacramento now, McMillan was stunting the growth of the two young small forwards by playing an old undrafted no future guy. (As an interesting side note, McMillan was Westphal's assistant prior to taking over for him in Seattle, so the similarity with the personnel handling may not be a coincidence)

In 07-08, Portland fans finally got to see what they were asking for, Webster as the starting 3 with Outlaw as a big minute backup, and it was largely a dissapointment. Both played very well at times, but it was obvious that the SF position was the weak link of that team, and there were constant rumors about bringing in a guy like Battier if they were looking to take the next step as a team. Luckily for the Blazers Webster went down for the entire 08-09 season and Batum was inserted, and even as a rookie, the difference was obvious.

Looking back now a few years later at the careers of Webster and Outlaw, I don't see how any amount of playing time would have made a difference for these two. Although on paper they both should have been a good fit for the Blazers, neither could ever put together the consistency or could fill the role that the team needed.

As much as I would like to see the Kings with Donte starting,(the possibility of a 6-6,6-7,6-11,6-11,6-11 starting lineup is just so exciting to think about), I am starting to come to the realization, and I think this is what we're seeing from Westphal, that while Omri and Donte are both good players who can do a lot of things to help win games, neither are the long term answer at SF for this team. When the answer is there, it becomes obvious, like in Portland with Batum. If Westphal doesn't think either of these guys aren't the right fit, by all means should he be trying out any other options available, especially in preseason.

Nice analysis. Yes, the answer could be, "None of the above." The longer the lack of production at the 3 goes on, the greater the consensus will be on the subject. Wouldn't it be something if we're all talking about drafting a 3 come Draft Day?

 

[funkykingston]

Nice analysis. Yes, the answer could be, "None of the above." The longer the lack of production at the 3 goes on, the greater the consensus will be on the subject. Wouldn't it be something if we're all talking about drafting a 3 come Draft Day?

If we're not seeing production from anyone at the 3 spot halfway through the season I could see Petrie dealing either Landry and Donte/Casspi or Dalembert's expiring (assuming Cousins is playing well) for a veteran SF to fill that spot.

 

[Kingster]

If we're not seeing production from anyone at the 3 spot halfway through the season I could see Petrie dealing either Landry and Donte/Casspi or Dalembert's expiring (assuming Cousins is playing well) for a veteran SF to fill that spot.

Me too, that is if Petrie can find value for those players. If not, then we might be talking in the spring about drafting a 3.

 

[funkykingston]

I had high hopes for Donte coming back and grabbing that position decisively. It would push Casspi to the bench where his energy and fire could make him a key contributor and possible sixth man.

But that didn't happen and Casspi (while seeming like a better option than Greene so far) also hasn't clearly won the job.

For a team with a budding star and a potential laden rookie big I just don't see drafting another SF as a great option. Because even if that guy pans out, you've set your expectations for the team back a year while you wait for him to develop. This team is also incredibly young already and a solid and dependable (if unspectacular) vet would be a nice piece.

The Kings will be better this year but still struggle. Which means they will likely end up with another top 10 pick in the draft. Along with expiring contracts and tons of caproom, that gives them HUGE flexibility to make a very attractive trade offer at the deadline for a SF that would stabilize the lineup.

I'd still rather see Greene or Casspi really step up to the plate, but Petrie is still a great talent evaluator and shrewd bargainer so I'm confident that with good chips he could swing a great deal for this team.

 

[The Hammer]

If we're not seeing production from anyone at the 3 spot halfway through the season I could see Petrie dealing either Landry and Donte/Casspi or Dalembert's expiring (assuming Cousins is playing well) for a veteran SF to fill that spot.

Agreed. And I would think we'd be able to get quite good value in return for those pieces. Although I'd prefer to hold on to Dalembert, especially after seeing/hearing his positive attitude and leadership during the first part of camp. Maybe something like Casspi/Donte + Landry (+ possibly our first round pick) for.... I don't even know... Carmelo? Who?

 

[mogli]

I dont agree i still belive that casspi or green or even both can fix themself to what PW want. its just take a little time till they will got there confidence back....
i think PW got to let them start and get a lot of minutes and let them do mistake so they can learn from it especially in the preseason

 

[funkykingston]

I don't see any way that Carmelo Anthony would agree to a trade to the Kings. Petrie could put together a package that Denver would accept (Landry, Greene, likely lottery pick, cap relief) but without Anthony agreeing to sign an extension it doesn't happen.

I'd also want to hang on to Dalembert and even resigning him beyond this year. His salary would actually go down in all likelihood whereas Landry would be looking for a sizeable salary increase that I'm not sure he's worth considering that I don't see him as a starter long term. I really see Landry as trade bait for a number of reasons.

 

[fnordius]

If Westphal doesn't think either of these guys aren't the right fit, by all means should he be trying out any other options available, especially in preseason.

I'm with you right up to this sentence, but we have to part ways there because, seriously, Antoine Wright is not the starting SF of our future, or anyone else's. Our only option which looks comparable with Casspi/Greene is Garcia, if PW doesn't mind losing him as a guard option. The other guys? Just a decision on who gets to wave towels, and who gets waived.