Kings-Jazz

[Sptsjunkie]

Let me start this by saying that I am not someone who thinks we need to trade Kevin Martin. However, if he comes back in January and does not mesh well with the new team, here's a deal I wanted to get some feedback on. I apologize in advance if someone has proposed this same deal in the past and I missed it.

Kings trade:

Kevin Martin

Jazz trade:

Matt Harpring - 6 mil expiring deal
Ronnie Price - 1.25 mil - 1 year left after this season
Kosta Koufos - 1.24 mil - 1 year left after this season
Knicks unprotected first round pick


Why the Jazz do it: Right now the West is the Lakers, the Nuggets a distant second and a bunch of marginal teams. The Jazz's biggest weaknesses right now are SG and outside shooting. KMart instantly solves both of those problems and prevents them from having to start an undrafted rookie at SG. Matthews is doing well enough right now, but is likely to hit the wall and even if he doesn't is not someone a veteran team wants to rely on in the playoffs. With this trade, the Jazz would likely be the second best team in the West and poised to either give the Lakers a good series or be the favorites if the Lakers suffered a costly injury or two (especially if one is Kobe). If you believe in Hollinger's "added wins" component to the NBA trade machine, this would ad 13 wins to the Jazz this season.

Why the Kings do it: We certainly don't have to trade Kevin, but if we are, this strikes me as a pretty good haul (outside of packaging him with JT for a star big man). We get cap space (an extra 6 mil this offseason, a little more next), a good young big man who can block shots and score inside, and an unprotected lottery pick that would be #6 overall if the season ended today. This would give the Kings two lottery picks in what looks like a good draft, cap space to help with another trade or sign a free agent, and would definitively make this Reke's team. Alternatively, the trade would also work with Fesenko if you believe in him more than Koufos.

Personally, I like the idea of this trade as it would give us two shots at a top 3 pick, two lottery picks and a good young big.

Thoughts?

 

[wonjaeyou]

um.. I would consider it. But I want to wait until Martin comes back and play with Evans and see how it goes.

Another thing is that we need a center. I know Kosta Koufos has some potential to be a good defensive player, but he won't be anything better than a bench player.

But.. then again I would consider it because of cap space and lotter pick.

 

[Bricklayer]

Sure, I would consider it. That Knicks pick of course being the real point, but the extra cap room also making us a contender for 1 big free agent. And all of that without losing anything off the current team.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I think it's in the Jazz's best interest to keep the knicks' pick.

 

[Chupacabra]

Deron Williams AND Kevin Martin on the defensive end at the same time? I dont think so.

 

[EatMoreChicken]

Seems like a lot to give-up. As much we ride Martin's one dimensional game, a guy that can score 30 pts a game is nothing to sneeze at. Koufos is intriguing, but I'd want a big man w/ a little more promise. And placing all our hopes on a draft position way too risky with our luck in past lotterys.

 

[Dreadnought]

I think I do this. Ultimately, I see this as a trade of Kevin Martin for a good off season FA, and that pick which could potentially be John Wall or Derrick Favors.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think I do this. Ultimately, I see this as a trade of Kevin Martin for a good off season FA, and that pick which could potentially be John Wall or Derrick Favors.

The other part of it too is that it kind of frees us up to win this year. Meaning that whatever else we do with trades, rotation decisions etc., we can pursue as many victories as possible this season wihtout nearly as much concern of twhat that does to our pick/future. The Knicks basically do our losing for us. Meanwhile we try our damndest to win to start the Reke era of in style, get the fanbase back, and make the place look more attractive to free agents this summer.

 

[Nighthawk1]

I'd do it... Even though Knicks are showing signs of life it will still be a lottery pick.

 

[The Astronaut]

would do this in a heartbeat. we have to think about next year and the year after that. the only reason to sell the store for a legit star big right now would be if we were making a championship run (which we are obviously not). I think a lot of people just can't bring themselves to think about next year and beyond. they can only think in terms of the present.

I for one will be stoked if we end the year with 25+ wins AND a lot of cap space AND a real shot at John Wall all for Martin (who I would hate to lose but...). I just think Martin's value will not be higher than when he returns and scores 38. Teams will want his scoring and FT shooting for the playoffs and I would love to see us take advantage of that for the future.

just my opinion.

 

[Bricklayer]

would do this in a heartbeat. we have to think about next year and the year after that. the only reason to sell the store for a legit star big right now would be if we were making a championship run (which we are obviously not). I think a lot of people just can't bring themselves to think about next year and beyond. they can only think in terms of the present.

I for one will be stoked if we end the year with 25+ wins AND a lot of cap space AND a real shot at John Wall all for Martin (who I would hate to lose but...). I just think Martin's value will not be higher than when he returns and scores 38. Teams will want his scoring and FT shooting for the playoffs and I would love to see us take advantage of that for the future.

just my opinion.

Making a move for a legit star big IS thinking about the future. As long as its one of the younger ones. If you were to get Bosh (age 25) and hold the pair together you are talking about 7-10 years of playoff runs. The onyl problem comes if you are talking about pickung up veteran 29+ year old guys.

This sort of thing in this thread is more the backup plan. If we can't get the proven All Star, then this is the gamble to try to get one another way.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I'm 50-50 on this, the Knicks pick is nice and so is the cap space and I'm totally cool with moving Martin, I'm just not sure this is the best deal we could get for him, but that all depends on how good or bad that pick winds up being. They don't rig the lottery for NYK ping pong balls in years they don't own their pick do they?

 

[The Astronaut]

Making a move for a legit star big IS thinking about the future.

I agree(and Bosh is the #1 guy I want) but trading away the store to "rent" a guy to make us better "this year" is what I'm talking about. Of course if we could get Bosh signed to a long term deal I would trade everyone except Evans and build around those 2. My point was that I could care less about getting better this year because this year is about evaluating current talent, letting Evans, JT and Casspi mature and setting ourselves up for the future.

 

[bajaden]

I would have to think about this one. There's part of me that wants to see just how Martin fits in. However this deal would aquire us cap space, a young backup center,who is more talented than some are giving him credit for, and a shot at a top five pick in the draft. And this is going to be a pretty good draft. This is the type of deal that sometimes puts a team over the top.

There has been a flood of trade suggestions of late. So I have a few thoughts on that subject. This team is developing an identity. I stated last year that our team had no identity. I couldn't tell you one thing they were good at, other than losing. So, rather than just suggest sexy names to go after, I think it would behove us to look at players the fit in with the identity of the team. I'm by no means suggesting anyone. But as an example, I thought Okafor is the type of player that would fit. He's not as sexy a choice as Bosh, but in the long term he may be more effective.

This team is taking on the mantle of toughness and hustle. Our identity is that there's no quit in us. Were going to fight you right down to the last second of the game. The last part of that image thats missing is good all around defense. To my mind, thats where we should be looking when making a trade, or a freeagent signing in the offseason. This team is terrible at defending the pick and roll. It pains me to say it, but Hawes is the worse culprit. He gets absolutely lost on the pick and roll at times. I went back and watched some of the plays in slow motion. On one play, Hawes did what I would call a glimpse instead of a show. In other words he didn't push the Pt guard out at all. He simply stepped out and then left the point guard out there with no one guarding him. Tyreke left Hawes man and tried desperately to get back to his man. Thompson then left his man and picked up Hawes man. Hawes just stood there facing the basket guarding no one. The point guard then drove into the lane, leaving Thompson trying to guard three men. Of course Thompson came across and tried to block the shot and fouled the point guard. All because Hawes got lost on the play.

In fairness, Hawes isn't the only culprit. Nocioni blew one of the coverages as did Casspi on the left wing. Beno, for some reason makes no effort to even get back to his man leaving him with a mismatch on a big man. With Tyreke the mismatch isn't as bad because he's so strong and long. One of the advantages of having him on the other teams points guard. We can get away with a switch without switching back better.

By the way, Okafor defends the pick and roll very well.

 

[asakkings]

I would do this trade today, no questions about it. Favors has looked pretty good this year and a shot at him would be nice. I don't think the Jazz do it, unless, they want to make a last hurrah with Sloan getting old.

 

[sactownfan]

heres the problem with this the Knicks pick will be high.... but the odds of landing a Martin like talent or better are crazy low...

in fact if that pick busts, we just gave up a potential all-star in k-mart for nothing.

you dont just hand over a star player for nothing.... if we trade Martin its got to be for a NBA player of equal level or has shown a lot of promise on the NBA level.... not picks...

 

[kingzallday]

Man...If it was guaranteed we'd get the first pick, I would be all over this. Imagine a backcourt of Wall and Reke.....Wow...

 

[Sptsjunkie]

I would have to think about this one. There's part of me that wants to see just how Martin fits in. However this deal would aquire us cap space, a young backup center,who is more talented than some are giving him credit for, and a shot at a top five pick in the draft. And this is going to be a pretty good draft. This is the type of deal that sometimes puts a team over the top.

The nice thing is that we would not have to do this trade today. The odds are the Jazz would want to see their position closer to the midway point of the season and we would want to see how Martin and Reke fit together.

If this happened, I would imagine it being close to the trade deadline when Martin had been back for a solid 1-2 months.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

Making a move for a legit star big IS thinking about the future. As long as its one of the younger ones. If you were to get Bosh (age 25) and hold the pair together you are talking about 7-10 years of playoff runs. The onyl problem comes if you are talking about pickung up veteran 29+ year old guys.

This sort of thing in this thread is more the backup plan. If we can't get the proven All Star, then this is the gamble to try to get one another way.

Nailed it. Well said.

 

[bajaden]

heres the problem with this the Knicks pick will be high.... but the odds of landing a Martin like talent or better are crazy low...

in fact if that pick busts, we just gave up a potential all-star in k-mart for nothing.

you dont just hand over a star player for nothing.... if we trade Martin its got to be for a NBA player of equal level or has shown a lot of promise on the NBA level.... not picks...

I understand your point of view, but I think the odds of getting a good player in this draft are very good. Especially at the top of the draft. If I couldn't get Wall, I would love to get my hands on Evan Turner. Turner in my opinion will be an all star in the NBA, and he plays both ends of the court. Thats assuming that he comes back from his back injury completely healed. All reports are that he will. Wesley Johnson is another player that can do everything Martin does and also plays good defense.
As a matter of fact if replacing Martin were the only criteria, this draft is loaded with 6'5" to 6'7" talented players. No immediate impact centers though.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

heres the problem with this the Knicks pick will be high.... but the odds of landing a Martin like talent or better are crazy low...

in fact if that pick busts, we just gave up a potential all-star in k-mart for nothing.

you dont just hand over a star player for nothing.... if we trade Martin its got to be for a NBA player of equal level or has shown a lot of promise on the NBA level.... not picks...

Kevin is a nice complementary player. A just sub-all star caliber player who can excel in the right environment. This may not be the right spot for him anymore, if not, this trade is more than just a pick. It's a potential top 3 pick, definite top 8. A young big who has very good potential and cap space so we can sign someone who fits our new team identity (as Bajaden explained).

Besides, while any pick can bust, we have the luxury of having a GM who is very good at identifying talent in the draft. Bill Simmons always jokes that the problem with bad GMs acquiring draft picks as part of a trade is that they are the ones making the picks and will likely waste them. For us, the reverse is true. If we aquire a draft pick, we are giving one of the league's best drafters 2 top 13 picks in a loaded draft. Even if the Knicks pick is 6-10, we would have a shot at someone who fits the team better than Kevin and who potentially would be better (an actual all star). If we got a bit lucky and wound up getting a top 3 pick, that could make us an ELITE team.

 

[bajaden]

Kevin is a nice complementary player. A just sub-all star caliber player who can excel in the right environment. This may not be the right spot for him anymore, if not, this trade is more than just a pick. It's a potential top 3 pick, definite top 8. A young big who has very good potential and cap space so we can sign someone who fits our new team identity (as Bajaden explained).

Besides, while any pick can bust, we have the luxury of having a GM who is very good at identifying talent in the draft. Bill Simmons always jokes that the problem with bad GMs acquiring draft picks as part of a trade is that they are the ones making the picks and will likely waste them. For us, the reverse is true. If we aquire a draft pick, we are giving one of the league's best drafters 2 top 13 picks in a loaded draft. Even if the Knicks pick is 6-10, we would have a shot at someone who fits the team better than Kevin and who potentially would be better (an actual all star). If we got a bit lucky and wound up getting a top 3 pick, that could make us an ELITE team.

Obviously I agree...

 

[kingzallday]

Totally forgot about Evan Turner. If we do get this trade to go down I'd go for either Wall or Turner.

Imagine the line-up with Turner. Our team would be one of the tallest in the league.

6'6 Reke/Udrih 6'3
6'7 Turner/Garcia 6'7
6'10 Greene/Casspi 6'9
6'11 Thompson/Cousins 6'11 - our pick
Koufos 7'/Hawes 7'

 

[Kingster]

I would have to think about this one. There's part of me that wants to see just how Martin fits in. However this deal would aquire us cap space, a young backup center,who is more talented than some are giving him credit for, and a shot at a top five pick in the draft. And this is going to be a pretty good draft. This is the type of deal that sometimes puts a team over the top.

There has been a flood of trade suggestions of late. So I have a few thoughts on that subject. This team is developing an identity. I stated last year that our team had no identity. I couldn't tell you one thing they were good at, other than losing. So, rather than just suggest sexy names to go after, I think it would behove us to look at players the fit in with the identity of the team. I'm by no means suggesting anyone. But as an example, I thought Okafor is the type of player that would fit. He's not as sexy a choice as Bosh, but in the long term he may be more effective.

This team is taking on the mantle of toughness and hustle. Our identity is that there's no quit in us. Were going to fight you right down to the last second of the game. The last part of that image thats missing is good all around defense. To my mind, thats where we should be looking when making a trade, or a freeagent signing in the offseason. This team is terrible at defending the pick and roll. It pains me to say it, but Hawes is the worse culprit. He gets absolutely lost on the pick and roll at times. I went back and watched some of the plays in slow motion. On one play, Hawes did what I would call a glimpse instead of a show. In other words he didn't push the Pt guard out at all. He simply stepped out and then left the point guard out there with no one guarding him. Tyreke left Hawes man and tried desperately to get back to his man. Thompson then left his man and picked up Hawes man. Hawes just stood there facing the basket guarding no one. The point guard then drove into the lane, leaving Thompson trying to guard three men. Of course Thompson came across and tried to block the shot and fouled the point guard. All because Hawes got lost on the play.

In fairness, Hawes isn't the only culprit. Nocioni blew one of the coverages as did Casspi on the left wing. Beno, for some reason makes no effort to even get back to his man leaving him with a mismatch on a big man. With Tyreke the mismatch isn't as bad because he's so strong and long. One of the advantages of having him on the other teams points guard. We can get away with a switch without switching back better.

By the way, Okafor defends the pick and roll very well.

In the Washington game, Greene was our Okafor. I know you like Okafor, but I really think Greene can be an Okafor with a more versatile offensive game. He's about the same size, pretty much comparable in jumping ability. Has probably more quickness. Not as strong, but he'll get stronger in a couple of years. That's not to say I want to put him at the 5 on a regular basis, but we did see that against Washington, and it made sense.

The more I hear about these trades, the more I become interested in the draft. The NY pick is sounding better and better...

 

[bajaden]

In the Washington game, Greene was our Okafor. I know you like Okafor, but I really think Greene can be an Okafor with a more versatile offensive game. He's about the same size, pretty much comparable in jumping ability. Has probably more quickness. Not as strong, but he'll get stronger in a couple of years. That's not to say I want to put him at the 5 on a regular basis, but we did see that against Washington, and it made sense.

The more I hear about these trades, the more I become interested in the draft. The NY pick is sounding better and better...

I can see Greene filling in there once in a while, but I'm not sure he'll ever be strong enough to do it on a regular basis. Okafor would be a permanent fix. Of course it doesn't necessarily have to Okafor. I was just using him as an example of the type of player I would want there.

By the way. I mentioned this on my college thread, but in case you haven't read it, Florida St. is playing Georgia Tech on sunday on espn. I will be a good chance for you to see Alabi up against top post players for a change. Since both lawal and Favors play for Georgia Tech. Sorry I don't know the time.

 

[Kingster]

I can see Greene filling in there once in a while, but I'm not sure he'll ever be strong enough to do it on a regular basis. Okafor would be a permanent fix. Of course it doesn't necessarily have to Okafor. I was just using him as an example of the type of player I would want there.

By the way. I mentioned this on my college thread, but in case you haven't read it, Florida St. is playing Georgia Tech on sunday on espn. I will be a good chance for you to see Alabi up against top post players for a change. Since both lawal and Favors play for Georgia Tech. Sorry I don't know the time.

Fantastic! Thanks for the info! It's a twofer - Alabi and Favors. I'll be sure to set the Tevo.