[KINGS] Comments that don't warrant their own thread (Redux)
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kingsfan101
Starter
Spurs probably the best case scenario for us. They're the furthest away from having an actual roster that Wemby can immediately come in and turn around. I like most of their pieces, but none of them are like foundational high upside star types.
OKC-disaster
DAL-Disaster
Pelicans-Disaster
Jazz-Disaster
Blazers-Not a disaster, but would make the West playoffs much tougher.
Rockets-Maybe disaster with how much talent that team has. If they found a coach to harness everyone... disaster.
Also Pacers would have been a disaster just from stupid ass twitter never shutting up about the Hali-Wemby duo and "rubbing" it in Kings fans faces.
OKC-disaster
DAL-Disaster
Pelicans-Disaster
Jazz-Disaster
Blazers-Not a disaster, but would make the West playoffs much tougher.
Rockets-Maybe disaster with how much talent that team has. If they found a coach to harness everyone... disaster.
Also Pacers would have been a disaster just from stupid ass twitter never shutting up about the Hali-Wemby duo and "rubbing" it in Kings fans faces.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Rigged. no question. lol. I mean, really? This is almost Ewing level.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Then again, if this is the transformational talent everyone expects, time to start prepping. The Spurs are a short time away from mattering and the West better be listening to those footsteps.
The Blazers getting 3rd to me puts pressure on them to rebuild. If they are smart, they could have a great rebuild going. Trade Sharpe and the pick and watch it blow.
Exactly how would you "rig" it? And why would all the other teams be OK with that?
The NBA Draft Lottery is not rigged, and here's why (basketballnews.com)
huh?
If this was rigged, the NBA did an absolutely terrible job at rigging it.
NOP: Zion and Wemby? Are you kidding?
DAL : Luka and Wemby? Are you kidding?
OKC: Shai rising super star, youngest roster in the league, Chet coming back next year? League pass darling
ORL: Pairing the exciting rookie of the year with Wemby?
POR: Pairing Dame and Wemby?
IND: Hali, the NBA darling and Wemby?
I'd argue sending him to the Spurs where he's by himself right now is probably the worst possible landing spot from a ratings/league pass perspective. Basically every other lotto slot has a star that could pair with Wemby to make them more attractive to watch.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Dude, it was a joke. lol. And it's easy, you put a little dent in the ball.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
It's just totally odd that for awhile the Spurs have been waiting for that French kid isn't it? Still, joking aside, I don't trust the intregity of the NBA period. It's entertainment after all.
Sure, but the Spurs absolutely have the least amount of help for that to happen right away. I mean just go down the line:
Hornets: Melo
Blazers: Dame
Rockets: If any of Green/Sengun/Jabari pop next season
Pistons: Cade/Ivey
Magic: Paolo/Franz
Pacers: Hali
Wizards: Beal
Jazz: Lauri
Dal: Luka
OKC: Shai
TOR: Siakam/Barnes
Pelicans: Zion/Ingram
Some worse than others, but I think we can be thankful that no Wemby didn't go to a spot that would create a super-duo for the next decade.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
The Pop factor comes in though. They always seem to find a way to get those other pieces.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
Spurs don’t have a ton to work with but they have a ton of cash to make moves after this season. Perfect spot for him to land for us and him.
don’t know what to to think of the Scoot/Melo pairing
don’t know what to to think of the Scoot/Melo pairing
They just gave Terry a big extension too, so they can't be too thrilled about it. I think they should maybe trade down a few slots from a team that desperately wants Scoot, get a future FRP or a quality young asset. Scoot and Melo don't look like they'll be able to compliment each other at all; both guys want and need the ball in their hands.
Also, maybe you just take Brandon Miller and get your complimentary wing star to Melo. Doesn't seem like there's a massive tier break with him and Scoot.
I think there's certainly a fair amount of sour grapes to be found here considering how long the Kings were waiting to hit on a #1 and the Spurs have sucked for 4-ish seasons after an unbelievable run of 5 championships and 22 straight seasons in the playoffs and suddenly have the "best prospect since Lebron" coming their way. And to be honest, it does irk me a tiny bit that they cleared out their roster for a 14% chance to land Wemby and actually got him.
But I also think the hype around him would crush a lot of dudes and I have no idea how he'll handle that mentally. Other players with his body type have had a difficult time staying healthy in the NBA and Pop is likely to retire before Wemby reaches his prime so who is going to coach that team after Pop? This is big for that franchise no doubt but San Antonio still has a lot of work to do before they get to cash in on their good fortune.
But I also think the hype around him would crush a lot of dudes and I have no idea how he'll handle that mentally. Other players with his body type have had a difficult time staying healthy in the NBA and Pop is likely to retire before Wemby reaches his prime so who is going to coach that team after Pop? This is big for that franchise no doubt but San Antonio still has a lot of work to do before they get to cash in on their good fortune.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I've seen mocks with Miller going 2nd but I wouldn't pass on Scoot if it were me though. Yeah, Scoot/Melo can work with the right coach. The Kings failure to not know how to use a 2 combo G lineup without making one look like trash compared to the superstar power we now see was strictly based on a coach with very little ability to adjust to his talent. Melo being as tall as he is even works.
Then you need to use the sarcasm font or something since I thought you were dead serious. Sorry.
sactowndog
All-Star
Vassell and Socham are good pieces.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
yeh they are just not likely stars
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
As soon as it was down to SA and CHA, I knew who had #1.
It just makes you wonder how every time such a “model” franchise is down on it’s luck and suffers one terrible season how it can amazingly reset with the #1 pick in a draft with a clear cut franchise type player.
Unreal.
The good news is, I didn’t want to see HOU or DET get rewarded. So there’s that.
MJ must be super pissed cause he just lost a lot of $$$ when he sells the franchise.
kingsfan101
Starter
Well they deserve a very long rope for the continued success they have had, and how they were able to build a dynasty around TD with low draft picks, particularly Manu, TP, and Kawahii, or using players others couldn't fit into their system (e.g. Diaw). In fact, they probably missed out on a couple of championships they could have won; losing to Miami once when they had almost won an away game, once to the Lakers (though Pistons ended up winning it all). I might even be missing one.
In any case, their success gives Pop a lot of leeway. That said, their recent moves have been a bit of a doozy. They lost Kawahii, which I thought was uncharacteristic. They also let Parker go to Hornets. Perhaps it's part of business, but IIRC, Parker didn't go for a huge package. Him finishing his career in San Antonio would have been poetic, and he could have been a leader in the locker room. They passed on Hali, and I thought didn't get a good haul for Murray either. Sure they got multiple picks for him, but several years out, and not even one rotation player in return (Gallinari was waived by them).
Tough to compare the two situations, but during our run, Petrie had a series of masterstrokes, picking gems with low draft picks (Hedo, GW, Martin), trades, and FAs. We were unlucky, but he built a contender. Then suddenly, most of his moves got weird. His coaching hires were uninspiring, his draft picks quite bad, particularly in hindsight, and also some of his trades.
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
Um, no. They deserve no rope.
The “continued success” they had was solely due to being gifted Tim Duncan after perfectly timing a 20 win season in 1996-97 after a long string of 50 and 60 win seasons with David Robinson (after luckily landing him in 1987).
No Tim Duncan, no dynasty. Not even close.
They’ve been gifted the #1 pick 3 times since 1986 and in each instance there was a clear cut bonafide #1 pick with HOF potential in the draft pool. That’s just plain LUCKY. Pure and simple.
Look at the KINGS landing the #1 pick 2 years later as an example. There was no such player to be had.
The Lakers and Jerry West landing Kobe Bryant with the #13 pick in 1996 was crafty and worthy of praise. The Spurs, however, building dynasties with top 50 players of all-time by winning a ping pong or lottery card battle in just the right draft class??? Not so much.
I wouldn’t go so far as to wish anything bad toward Victor Wembanyama, but as far as the Spurs franchise goes .. if Wembanyama somehow never pans out to be the player many expect, I surely won’t be upset over it.
They’ve been much more a lucky franchise than a great one. As I said, take TD away and plant him in Boston instead and everyone’s memory of the Spurs franchise the past 25 years is drastically different.
Not only that, some here either forget or aren’t old enough to recall Popovich’s backstabbing treatment of Bob Hill, who was the Spurs HC before Pop replaced him with himself. Then tanked to get TD and set himself up for all the future success.
Dude has always been a douchebag, despite how the media and NBA likes to portray him.
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coolhandluke
Starter
Kings got the #2 pick in 2018 and you know what happened. Many organizations are plain dumb even when they get lucky. Can't really blame the Spurs for being smart when they get a date with Lady Luck.
Are we going to ignore that they scored Ginobili at #57, Parker at #21 and Kawhi at #15 (via Indiana)?
Are we going to discount their history in developing talent, not just superstars but also roleplayers?
Spurs have a stable competent organization from the top to bottom (owner, GM, coach, scouts). They are not just lucky, they are smart enough to maximize their luck. 5 championships and 18 consecutive 50-win seasons don't come from just plain luck.
I wish the Kings were as "lucky" as the Spurs.
Are we going to ignore that they scored Ginobili at #57, Parker at #21 and Kawhi at #15 (via Indiana)?
Are we going to discount their history in developing talent, not just superstars but also roleplayers?
Spurs have a stable competent organization from the top to bottom (owner, GM, coach, scouts). They are not just lucky, they are smart enough to maximize their luck. 5 championships and 18 consecutive 50-win seasons don't come from just plain luck.
I wish the Kings were as "lucky" as the Spurs.
kingsfan101
Starter
First off, I don't know Pop's history, and hadn't even heard the name Bob Hill till now. Am quite old unfortunately, but since I came to the US and started watching BB, Pop's been the Spurs coach. So, won't comment on that.
Second, everyone knows and most people agree that they tanked in the TD draft, got extremely lucky they landed him, when they already had a HOF in his prime, and that formed the nucleus of their dynasty. It would be silly to overlook their major wins in late 1st round, and 2nd round to land TP and Manu, their trading up to get Kawahii, or getting great performances out of Boris Diaw and Bruce Bowen when they might have been out of the league otherwise (perhaps a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the drift. Also, Bowen had the rep of being a dirty player, and I'm sure Pop was aware of that. Not excusing him for it, but giving props where they are due).
Would any of it have mattered if they didn't land TD? Perhaps not. And yes, that would have changed the conversation completely. However, they did, and succeeded. TD didn't flame out like many storied prospects do. He didn't seek a trade to a bigger market, didn't throw tantrums when Manu/TP/Kawahii became the focus of offense. When Spurs were being obliterated by the Lakers, he didn't demand half the prospects and picks to be traded to get another star. Was it just TD or was there an influence of Pop and the overall organization? Ultimately, the success has to be respected.
It's like saying that Jerry Krause didn't deserve any props for orchestrating the Pippen trade, since Bulls wouldn't have a dynasty if MJ weren't there. Well, they might not have had a dynasty if Pippen wasn't there too. Same with Spurs.
As for West signing Bryant, I remember reading (again, started following BB after he was drafted) that Kobe had stated quite openly that he will play for the Lakers. Lakers being Lakers, have the privilege of stealing stars (and potential stars) from other teams. Did the Hornets trade him willingly, or did they decide that it's better to have a solid center in Divac, or an unhappy teenager, who might bolt when he actually starts contributing on court? Who can say?
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
You clearly didn’t read or comprehend what I wrote if you’re seriously asking these questions.
YES. I’m ignoring and discounting it all.
As I stated twice, no Tim Duncan, no dynasty. Or 20 years of consistent success. Go look at their numerous years of suck-a-tude before landing David Robinson with a lucky envelope.
None of those other players happen w/o the Duncan luck. And even if they did, it wouldn’t have mattered w/o Duncan. That’s the point.
And, btw, how did the 20 win season happen in 96-97 if they were and still are so damned good with drafting and player development?
Hell, how did this past season happen?? They were going nowhere, but, again, a lucky lottery in a generational draft might well bail them out.
How on earth you guys wanna hand out credit for that $#/t is beyond me.
They’ve been extremely fortunate to land #1 in drafts that had generational talents. Duncan more than Robinson, but still top 50 all-time. And they may have done it again.
L U C K.
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
You could research it quite quickly, but here’s the gist.
Pop fired Hill for no reason, really, to put himself in place as HC. Players were shocked at the time. They’d won 62 and 59 games in 2 seasons under Hill, advancing to the Conference Finals and Semifinals respectively.
Robinson goes down with injury and only plays 6 games during 1996-1997 season and consequently the Spurs started off poorly at 3-15 so Pop took advantage of that and fired him. Fwiw, Pop didn’t fare much better the rest of that season going 17-47. So clearly it wasn’t a “coaching issue”. Pop wasn’t dumb. He knew that. It was a power play for a gig he wanted. There was other drama involved, but there’s the short version.
I remember it well when it all went down and never liked Pop since.
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
Yes, I can, because they weren’t smart, they were lucky.
You’re making terrible comparisons.
Robinson and Duncan were the undisputed, clear cut #1 players in their drafts. Just like when Shaq went #1. And LeBron went #1.
There was no debate. Had the KINGS landed #1 in either of those drafts, they’d have taken those same 2 players as would have every other team in the league. So stop with that.
While many of us KINGS fans wanted #77 in 2018, he was NOT the clear cut, no-brainer #1 pick as Duncan and Robinson were. Not even close.
As it were, #77 went #3 because of that fact.
The KINGS have surely made some dumb draft decisions over the years, but they’ve yet to own the #1 pick and pass on an overwhelming consensus generational talent, especially a big man that used to be the gold standard until the past 15 years or so.
They would NOT have passed on Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Duncan, LeBron, AD, or any other of the no-brainer top picks. You’re kidding yourself if you actually believe that.
There’s a huge difference between screwing up the middling lottery picks that landed Thomas Robinson, Jimmer, McLemore, and Stauskas and actually blowing the top overall pick in a draft that has a talent like Duncan, Robinson and now Wembanyama.
I don’t give the Knicks credit for taking Patrick Ewing, the Magic credit for taking Shaq, the Cavs taking LeBron or the Spurs taking Duncan. Any team that landed #1 in those drafts would have ran to the podium with the same name on their draft card.
Same goes for this upcoming draft. Didn’t matter who ended up #1, we all know who that pick is going to be.
Me too. Cause they’d have had Robinson and Duncan and a much different trajectory from 1989 on and then again from 1997 on.
I wish the Spurs had the KINGS luck and landed only ONE #1 pick when there wasn’t a single worthwhile player to be had other than Sean Elliott — who was FAR from a generational star.
The Spurs luck would have had them landing the #1 pick in 1989 instead of the KINGS in an alternate universe where Shaquille O’Neal was permitted to enter the draft straight out of HS. But since the KINGS had that pick, that wasn’t allowed to happen for several more years.
As the saying goes, “it’s better to be lucky than good”.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
They're good pieces but pretty much rotation level players on a team that isn't tanking at this point (and Sochan's too raw at this point for me to even really consider him that). Keldon Johnson would probably be a kickass 6th man/agent of chaos rotation guy (think a forward version of playoff Malik Monk) on a good team. The Spurs have done a solid job of hitting singles in the draft pretty much over the entirety of the last two decades but aside from Kawhi have never really figured out how to draft a star player (and even that pretty much happened by accident and ended in the guy forcing his way out of town) or really even a good second option guy since Tony Parker/Manu Ginobli (you could argue that Dejounte Murray is the closest they've gotten but we've sorta seen the drawbacks to him over the last year or so as he's show himself to be less than a star next to Trae Young).
Wemby
Sochan
Keldon
Vassell/Branham
Jones
is an interesting young guy starting lineup but aside from Vassell and probably Wemby, that is a rotation full of absolutely terrible perimeter shooting. I guess McBuckets and Devonte Graham are still technically on the roster and help them in that regard but they're also incongruous pieces on a young team like this. At least most of their young guys play defense but there is a hell of a lot of work for them to do to get that roster to a place where it makes sense, hence them probably still being a couple of seasons away from really affecting the Kings postseason campaigns.
The main difference between the last time the Spurs tanked their way to a franchise altering big man centerpiece and this time is that last time they already had a tailor-made roster for 1990s basketball (a bunch of scrappy three and d guys to play around a star big man) and they already happened to have a Hall of Famer superstar big man that they sat for pretty much an entire season who then came back to play next to Tim Duncan for the next half-decade plus. I'm guessing Pop still has Tim Duncan's number and he'll probably be around the team to help mentor Wemby going forward but he's not going to be on the team/giving them the option to play at least one star big man hub on the court at all times like the Two Towers era Spurs did.
As great a coach as Pop is, he hasn't quite shown himself to be capable of being an elite coach in the modern run-and-gun spread-the-floor era without having a bonafide superstar wing around like pre-injury Kawhi and that was a good five plus years ago at this point where teams weren't playing anywhere close to the style of play they're playing now. He's also the oldest head coach in league history so I'm really not sure how many more years he runs the Spurs before handing off the reigns to Brett Brown/Bud/Becky/whichever of his many disciples is available at the time.
Also, hindsight being 20/20, the Spurs screwed up by passing on Haliburton for Vassell, who has shown the potential to be a solid wing for the next decade plus but is not the primary ball handler the Spurs are still in desperate need of even with Wemby on their roster.
This is really the bottom line. It's frustrating to Kings fans to watch this happen.
As a small market franchise (KC and Sac), the Kings have been in the lottery 28 times, and have won the #1 pick once in a dud draft.
As a small market franchise, the Spurs have been in the lottery 7 times, and have won the #1 overall pick three of those lotteries, each time with a consensus #1 overall big man in the draft.
It's really amazing how good the Spurs luck has been when they were in the lottery. If we had won the lottery at the pace the Spurs have, we'd have picked #1 overall TWELVE times in drafts with consensus #1 overall players. Meaning, not Pervis. The Spurs luck is effectively the equivalent of an alternate universe in which the Kings drafted ALL OF THE FOLLOWING:
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Chris Webber
Tim Duncan
Elton Brand
Yao Ming
LeBron James
Dwight Howard
Greg Oden (whoops!)
Anthony Davis
and now Wembanyama
It's kinda comical. OK, not "kinda". It's absolutely mind-blowingly comical.
