[Game] Kings @ Clippers - 10/31 - 7:30 PT, 10:30 ET

[KingsFanGER]

Well Raptors seem reluctant to give Ross an extension. So there is that....

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Just to be clear, I don't care much for his potential. It is only a factor to me if the person we replace him with (like Anderson) plays at about the same level now with no upside. That's where I don't really see the point.

Fair enough. I'm all for replacing McLemore with a no-upside player who's actually better. But, a no-upside player who's at the same level? Miss me with that.

 

[bajaden]

Yeah, those two things are equivalent. Except, wait... no they're not. First of All™, you "taking the week off," so to speak, wouldn't 'definitely" lead to your team being below its sales target, unless there's literally no one else at your company that can do your job (in which case, you may want to ask for a raise, but that's another discussion). And secondly, McLemore got off to a bad start; he wasn't dogging it out there, he wasn't half-assing it. He was playing hard, he just wasn't playing well. He didn't give up on this team, he didn't quit on his team, the decision to play was taken out of his hands (EDIT - And it should have been. He was stinking the joint out). In both of the first two games, McLemore got off to a bad start, and then played better in the third quarter. Last night, he wasn't given a chance to play at all in the third quarter.

A more accurate analogy would be if you blew your first two sales calls of the week, and your team lead decided that he was going to pull you off the phones for the rest of the week, and then your team fell short of your sales target, and then all of the shareholders started blaming you.

I don't think anyone accuses Ben of not playing hard. That, while admirable, has little to do with the subject. Were talking about results, and that's where Ben is lacking. It's seems that the overall opinion of what's expected of a starting SG adds up to a severe lowering of the bar. Ben only played 10 minutes and didn't accomplish much in that time. Now you can argue that if given more time, he would have put up some numbers. However, he, like Belinelli, has a track record, and it's the exact opposite of Belinelli's. Ben has shown he's quite capable of playing 25 minutes and not accomplishing much. Last night, Karl decided that he didn't want to watch the other 15 minutes. Maybe that was a message to Ben.

Starting Anderson may not improve the team or the situation. But, it might. Anderson is a better defender, ball handler, and probably has much better BBIQ than Ben. What that would add up to is unknown, but he can't do any worse, and it might do Ben some good to sit and watch for a while. The other side of the coin is that Ben still has some trade value. When the Kings traded Stauskas I commented to friends that the Kings were trading the wrong SG, and I still believe that. But that's subject of a different thread, which is just my opinion, and worth what your paying for it.

 

[Bricklayer]

Well I think when Ben truly was that horrible in the first, Karl wouldn't do this right?

Everybody does everything they can to buck Ben up because he has no self -confidence whatsoever.

And frankly as Ben is once again 314th in the league in PER at 3.42 while sporting a .433TS% that is probably BETTER than what he put up in preseason, I can't think of many good arguments why he should have any. Its a zombie chicken and rotten egg question. Did you stink the place up first, or lose all confidence first?

His current "value added" is a -5.6 btw, for anybody who would care to continue on with the he's not hurting us line of nonsense. Of course he is. Its hard to fall so short of expectations when so little is asked in the first place.

 

[kingsboi]

Reddick having an unreal game is directly related to Ben only playing ten minutes.

Ben's speed and length was sorely missed as the Kings went small ball.

I don't think even you believe what you just said.

 

[KingsFanGER]

Everybody does everything they can to buck Ben up because he has no self -confidence whatsoever.

Yes of course Brick...

 

[rainmaker]

Beyond shooting %'s, the glaring difference between Ben and Belli is that Belli approaches every shot, every cut, every gap in the defense as if he knows his next shot will fall. There's no hesitation. That mindset/confidence combined with his rep changes how teams guard us compared to when Ben is out there. He's also a far superior ball handler and passer. More dynamic.

Anderson instead of Ben doesn't solve that. Seems folks are having two conversations here. There's one side who doesn't like Ben's offense, then there's another who doesn't like his defense. Anderson is a better defender but his lack of offense still causes us to go small because he's not much an upgrade offensively, which hurts our front court defense and ability on the glass.

If people think freakin Anderson is a good enough option that we're going to see much difference with him instead of Ben for the few mins Ben plays or that he's a good enough option that Karl still won't go small, killing our team defense, you won't get me to agree.

That we're arguing Ben vs Anderson simply shows we still have a huge hole to fill at SG.

 

[KingsFanGER]

That we're arguing Ben vs Anderson simply shows we still have a huge hole to fill at SG.

And I would guess nobody on this board would disagree with this.

 

[Bricklayer]

Yes of course Brick...

Its been a critical dynamic for Ben's entire time here. Every time he has been any good at all has directly correlated to somebody, whether players or coaches, glad handling him and pumping him up. But he's like a hot wheels car with a rusty axle, as soon as you quit pushing and patting him on the back he quickly slows to a stop again.

I think a lot of it goes to a very low BBall IQ, and I am attracted to a remark Karl made in the preseason along those lines about how Ben was a high school center. I don't think he inherently gets the game or has that feel, and likely never will. Which makes him a poor fit for a Karl team trying to run a free flowing talent displays system. What Ben has are certain skills, or potential skills. But he has little idea how to use them effectively, or how they fit into any particular moment or system. So you construct a little box where Ben has to do x,y an z, in that order, and maybe he can execute it. Then you take down the walls to that box and say "fly birdie fly!" and he just sits there on his perch having no idea what that means and hoping you'll make him feel safe again by putting the cage back over him.

 

[rainmaker]

When the Kings traded Stauskas I commented to friends that the Kings were trading the wrong SG, and I still believe that. But that's subject of a different thread, which is just my opinion, and worth what your paying for it.

Agree. Nik not only has more NBA level game than Ben but if Nik were here instead of Ben right now starting Belli and running Nik as the backup would be a much more attractive option than what we're currently discussing.

 

[KingsFanGER]

Its been a critical dynamic for Ben's entire time here. Every time he has been any good at all has directly correlated to somebody, whether players or coaches, glad handling him and pumping him up. But he's like a hot wheels car with a rusty axle, as soon as you quit pushing and patting him on the back he quickly slows to a stop again.

I think a lot of it goes to a very low BBall IQ, and I am attracted to a remark Karl made in the preseason along those lines about how Ben was a high school center. I don't think he inherently gets the game or has that feel, and likely never will. Which makes him a poor fit for a Karl team trying to run a free flowing talent displays system. What Ben has are certain skills, or potential skills. But he has little idea how to use them effectively, or how they fit into any particular moment or system. So you construct a little box where Ben has to do x,y an z, in that order, and maybe he can execute it. Then you take down the walls to that box and say "fly birdie fly!" and he just sits there on his perch having no idea what that means and hoping you'll make him feel safe again by putting the cage back over him.

You are guessing Brick.
I know your opinion on Ben, Nik and probably any young player in this league, since you seem to be a strong believer in veterans no matter which veterans, and therefore I'm sure, that we will never agree on anything, when it comes to basketball.
And like I said - I see nobody on this board, who thinks Ben is the safe answer for our SG spot going forward. Problem remains, that we need to get a player that helps and fits our needs.
It's comical, when even Nik gets mentioned now.
Nik had a solid debut for the 76ers, but his role is completely different now.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I don't think anyone accuses Ben of not playing hard. That, while admirable, has little to do with the subject. Were talking about results, and that's where Ben is lacking. It's seems that the overall opinion of what's expected of a starting SG adds up to a severe lowering of the bar. Ben only played 10 minutes and didn't accomplish much in that time. Now you can argue that if given more time, he would have put up some numbers. However, he, like Belinelli, has a track record, and it's the exact opposite of Belinelli's. Ben has shown he's quite capable of playing 25 minutes and not accomplishing much. Last night, Karl decided that he didn't want to watch the other 15 minutes. Maybe that was a message to Ben.

I'll just say that, if you think that no one is accusing McLemore of not playing hard, then we're not reading other people's posts the same way. You may possibly be giving some people more benefit of the doubt than I think that they're owed.

Starting Anderson may not improve the team or the situation. But, it might. Anderson is a better defender, ball handler, and probably has much better BBIQ than Ben.

I've seen no compelling evidence that Anderson is either a better defender, or has more of the mythical BBIQ. I'd like to be done with this, only I've been here long enough to know that if it isn't McLemore, it'll only be somebody else.

 

[Bricklayer]

You are guessing Brick.
I know your opinion on Ben, Nik and probably any young player in this league, since you seem to be a strong believer in veterans no matter which veterans, and therefore I'm sure, that we will never agree on anything, when it comes to basketball.
And like I said - I see nobody on this board, who thinks Ben is the safe answer for our SG spot going forward. Problem remains, that we need to get a player that helps and fits our needs.
It's comical, when even Nik gets mentioned now.
Nik had a solid debut for the 76ers, but his role is completely different now.

You don't know anything of the kind about me.

Compare my opinion of Ben's usefulness or Jimmer's or TRob's to my opinion of WCS's, or Cuz's before him or Tyreke's before him. Its talent and feel, not youth, that matter. Youth is only intriguing in that you haven't uncovered the talent yet and so you dream of finding a Cuz under every young rock. Once you know your animal though...

 

[KingsFanGER]

You don't know anything of the kind about me.

Compare my opinion of Ben's usefulness or Jimmer's or TRob's to my opinion of WCS's, or Cuz's before him or Tyreke's before him. Its talent and feel, not youth, that matter. Youth is only intriguing in that you haven't uncovered the talent yet and so you dream of finding a Cuz under every young rock. Once you know your animal though...

Well regarding your basketball opinions, I think after a few years on this board I know enough to make the statement, that we will most likely never agree.
It's not only about talent. It's mainly about development. Most players that get into the NBA are talented. Those who succeed are the dedicated hard workers, that were lucky enough to come into the right enviroment.

 

[206Fan]

Fair enough. I'm all for replacing McLemore with a no-upside player who's actually better. But, a no-upside player who's at the same level? Miss me with that.

I keep asking, and I'm sorry if it gets repetitive, but where are we going to find this player everyone is talking about?

People want a SG who can both defend and shoot well. Where are we going to get that player from? Ben in a straight up trade won't get us that player. Sounds like we're going to mortgage more of our future 1st round swaps or 1st rounders in order to complete a trade.

Even with that, there still isn't a lot of options out there...

Who do you guys all suggest we trade him for?

 

[Livinthedream]

Agree. Nik not only has more NBA level game than Ben but if Nik were here instead of Ben right now starting Belli and running Nik as the backup would be a much more attractive option than what we're currently discussing.

Nik?????

 

[gunks]

Nik Stauskus?

 

[Bricklayer]

Well regarding your basketball opinions, I think after a few years on this board I know enough to make the statement, that we will most likely never agree.
It's not only about talent. It's mainly about development. Most players that get into the NBA are talented. Those who succeed are the dedicated hard workers, that were lucky enough to come into the right enviroment.

No you're right. I don't agree with that at all. I consider the talent assessment game to be just that. See through the development or lack thereof, and see what a guy can do or not. Feel can't be taught. Toughness can't be taught. Fight/feistiness. Size. Great hands or feet. Ballhandling to a large degree. Court vision.

You can sometimes teach shooting. But that's not a given, just a possibility. You can sometimes take a weak kid, get him in the weight room, and give him strength. But if he was a wuss as a skinny guy, he'll still act the wuss as a strong guy, because that's was the way his brain was trained -- avoid contact or you'll get hurt.

In any case, no amount of training in the world can ever exceed your talent, just maximize it.

 

[Kingster]

Well there is only one ball to play with and Ben is pretty much a bystander with the starters right now. And not because he is useless or can't play, but because our game is centered around Rondo, Cuz and Gay with Willie working as a screener and occasional finisher.
Well Ben being a better ball handler and playmaker would help, but still he would have only a marginal role on offense.
What we need from him is effort and good D. And he gave us excactly this last night. So basically no need to complain about Ben.

And for Ben alone you won't net a seasoned veteran, that helps right away. You would get a flawed veteran or a young talent with upside.
I said it again and again - nobody would argue a Ben trade for someone like Shumpert or Fournier, but this ain't happening.

Karl would love for Ben to be a playmaker. It's not the game plan.

 

[Chubbs]

One thing I do agree with is that Ben isn't a good fit for Karl's offense. Not sure Anderson is either. Bellinelli probably is. Nik in theory was.

Vlade and Karl don't seem to be on the same page.

 

[KingsFanGER]

No you're right. I don't agree with that at all. I consider the talent assessment game to be just that. See through the development or lack thereof, and see what a guy can do or not. Feel can't be taught. Toughness can't be taught. Fight/feistiness. Size. Great hands or feet. Ballhandling to a large degree. Court vision.

You can sometimes teach shooting. But that's not a given, just a possibility. You can sometimes take a weak kid, get him in the weight room, and give him strength. But if he was a wuss as a skinny guy, he'll still act the wuss as a strong guy, because that's was the way his brain was trained -- avoid contact or you'll get hurt.

In any case, no amount of training in the world can ever exceed your talent, just maximize it.

Like I said, we gotta agree to disagree.
I think almost everything can be taught. Of course you won't turn a weakness in a elite strength. But to have sucess you have to turn to your strengths and work on your weaknesses. It's about wether your strengths fit the need of the NBA team, your are playing for.

 

[Bricklayer]

One thing I do agree with is that Ben isn't a good fit for Karl's offense. Not sure Anderson is either. Bellinelli probably is. Nik in theory was.

Vlade and Karl don't seem to be on the same page.

Not sure how? Vlade didn't draft Ben. He did get Karl Belinelli.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I keep asking, and I'm sorry if it gets repetitive, but where are we going to find this player everyone is talking about?

People want a SG who can both defend and shoot well. Where are we going to get that player from? Ben in a straight up trade won't get us that player. Sounds like we're going to mortgage more of our future 1st round swaps or 1st rounders in order to complete a trade.

Even with that, there still isn't a lot of options out there...

Who do you guys all suggest we trade him for?

I've already answered this question, if not in this thread, then in others. You either missed it, or you didn't accept my answer. Trade him for anybody. Literally anybody. Hell, trade him for cap space.

The whole problem with the premise of bringing McLemore off the bench to develop him is that we're not going to develop him. If you think that McLemore is holding the team back from our goal of trying to make the playoffs this year, then you can't possibly believe that we're going to have time to stop along the way to develop Ben McLemore. I've already gone on record as saying that we can't start Bellinelli: it diminishes his overall role on the team, and it disrupts the bench's chemistry, to say nothing of their offense. You have to leave Bellinelli in his current sixth man role, in order to maximize his effectiveness.

So, suppose you agree with the idea that Bellinelli needs to remain the sixth man, but you're still on the ABM Train. Well, then, that means you're either starting Butler or Anderson, and that relegates McLemore from starter to towel waver. If you think that Karl is going to change McLemore's role from starter to, like, 7th or 8th man, you're kidding yourself. When McLemore gets pulled for good, he immediately goes from starter to being the fifth guard in a four-guard rotation. So, the answer to the question "Who do we trade McLemore for?" becomes "Anybody." Get pennies on the dollar, if you have to. Why anybody? Because we don't need to pay somebody $3M to be the thirteenth man. Anybody can do that. Anybody. Anybody at all.

If we bench McLemore, then we've given up on him. We're not going to develop him; we don't have time for that. Now, I'm not interested in arguing whether we should give up on him. But, if we do, the it's time to cut our losses, admit we screwed yet another draft pick, and get on with it. Scrub SGs are two a penny: we can easily find one for the league minimum to hold down the bench.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Like I said, we gotta agree to disagree.
I think almost everything can be taught...

I feel like you may have watched Stand and Deliver one too many times...

 

[KingsFanGER]

I feel like you may have watched Stand and Deliver one too many times...

Actually I had to google it. Never heard of this movie.

 

[kingsboi]

I keep asking, and I'm sorry if it gets repetitive, but where are we going to find this player everyone is talking about?

People want a SG who can both defend and shoot well. Where are we going to get that player from? Ben in a straight up trade won't get us that player. Sounds like we're going to mortgage more of our future 1st round swaps or 1st rounders in order to complete a trade.

Even with that, there still isn't a lot of options out there...

Who do you guys all suggest we trade him for?

There really isn't much value we can trade to get back a net positive from the two guard position. Therefore, I suggest we draft ANOTHER one if we must...this time you don't have to worry about Pete and co. messing up the pick

 

[206Fan]

I've already answered this question, if not in this thread, then in others. You either missed it, or you didn't accept my answer. Trade him for anybody. Literally anybody. Hell, trade him for cap space.

The whole problem with the premise of bringing McLemore off the bench to develop him is that we're not going to develop him. If you think that McLemore is holding the team back from our goal of trying to make the playoffs this year, then you can't possibly believe that we're going to have time to stop along the way to develop Ben McLemore. I've already gone on record as saying that we can't start Bellinelli: it diminishes his overall role on the team, and it disrupts the bench's chemistry, to say nothing of their offense. You have to leave Bellinelli in his current sixth man role, in order to maximize his effectiveness.

So, suppose you agree with the idea that Bellinelli needs to remain the sixth man, but you're still on the ABM Train. Well, then, that means you're either starting Butler or Anderson, and that relegates McLemore from starter to towel waver. If you think that Karl is going to change McLemore's role from starter to, like, 7th or 8th man, you're kidding yourself. When McLemore gets pulled for good, he immediately goes from starter to being the fifth guard in a four-guard rotation. So, the answer to the question "Who do we trade McLemore for?" becomes "Anybody." Get pennies on the dollar, if you have to. Why anybody? Because we don't need to pay somebody $3M to be the thirteenth man. Anybody can do that. Anybody. Anybody at all.

If we bench McLemore, then we've given up on him. We're not going to develop him; we don't have time for that. Now, I'm not interested in arguing whether we should give up on him. But, if we do, the it's time to cut our losses, admit we screwed yet another draft pick, and get on with it. Scrub SGs are two a penny: we can easily find one for the league minimum to hold down the bench.

Woah. You're saying we should trade a young 22yearold with a high ceiling for pennies because he's not ready to be a starting SG?

What the hell is development?

Paying a young 22yearold SG with a high ceiling $3million to be a 13th man is too much?

$3M is going to cost us 0 with the new cap rising.


You said if we give up on him, we cut our loses. What do we even have to lose with keeping McLemore on the team? Roster space?

It's not like Acy is even a solid PF. It's not like Seth Curry is even an NBA player. It's not like Moreland is a 15th man rotation.

I'm sorry, but this is outrageous.

You're suggesting we cut McLemore because he's not developing the way we want. You want to trade him for 0, just so he can get off this team because you don't think we have the patience to deal with him.

That is down right ridiculous.

I'm dumbfounded by your comments.


You'd rather start James Anderson or Caron Butler at SG over Ben McLemore.


I don't understand the rational behind this at all. I really don't.

Ben is not hurting this team by being a bench warmer.

This isn't even about improving the SG position anymore. It's about your clear dislike towards McLemore because he's not improving as much as you want him to. You don't even want to develop him anymore because you think it's a waste of a roster space and time.

 

[sdballer]

Woah. You're saying we should trade a young 22yearold with a high ceiling for pennies because he's not ready to be a starting SG?

What the hell is development?

Paying a young 22yearold SG with a high ceiling $3million to be a 13th man is too much?

$3M is going to cost us 0 with the new cap rising.


You said if we give up on him, we cut our loses. What do we even have to lose with keeping McLemore on the team? Roster space?

It's not like Acy is even a solid PF. It's not like Seth Curry is even an NBA player. It's not like Moreland is a 15th man rotation.

I'm sorry, but this is outrageous.

You're suggesting we cut McLemore because he's not developing the way we want. You want to trade him for 0, just so he can get off this team because you don't think we have the patience to deal with him.

That is down right ridiculous.

I'm dumbfounded by your comments.


You'd rather start James Anderson or Caron Butler at SG over Ben McLemore.


I don't understand the rational behind this at all. I really don't.

Ben is not hurting this team by being a bench warmer.

This isn't even about improving the SG position anymore. It's about your clear dislike towards McLemore because he's not improving as much as you want him to. You don't even want to develop him anymore because you think it's a waste of a roster space and time.

Woah. You're saying we should trade a young 22yearold with a high ceiling for pennies because he's not ready to be a starting SG?

What the hell is development?

Paying a young 22yearold SG with a high ceiling $3million to be a 13th man is too much?

$3M is going to cost us 0 with the new cap rising.


You said if we give up on him, we cut our loses. What do we even have to lose with keeping McLemore on the team? Roster space?

It's not like Acy is even a solid PF. It's not like Seth Curry is even an NBA player. It's not like Moreland is a 15th man rotation.

I'm sorry, but this is outrageous.

You're suggesting we cut McLemore because he's not developing the way we want. You want to trade him for 0, just so he can get off this team because you don't think we have the patience to deal with him.

That is down right ridiculous.

I'm dumbfounded by your comments.


You'd rather start James Anderson or Caron Butler at SG over Ben McLemore.


I don't understand the rational behind this at all. I really don't.

Ben is not hurting this team by being a bench warmer.

This isn't even about improving the SG position anymore. It's about your clear dislike towards McLemore because he's not improving as much as you want him to. You don't even want to develop him anymore because you think it's a waste of a roster space and time.

You're pointing your gun in the wrong direction

 

[Chubbs]

Not sure how? Vlade didn't draft Ben. He did get Karl Belinelli.

Not sure what you're setting me up for counselor but I think it's been pretty clear vlade isn't getting Karl the types of players he covets. That includes Ben.

Kept Ben, traded nik. Why?

Vlade also extended Ben. If Karl didn't want him and was going to bench him then Ben should have been traded this summer.

 

[Gary]

my .02

McLemore is the weakest link on this team and shouldn't be starting. Look for a deal around the trade deadline to get rid of him and bring in a better better starter (if Anderson can't take the job).

All in all though I LOVE the way the Kings as a team have played. We have been in the two looses and WAIT for our chemistry to get better. We will be a team that can definitely contend for a playoff spot.