[Game] Kings at Timberwolves, 4/5/2021, 4 PM Pacific 7PM Eastern

[EIM86]

This was a nice loss for the draft cause I had this as a win. Get a few more of these that we “should” win but end up losing. Hello 7th/8th and if we get lucky get a top 4 from the lotto

 

[mac]

Because Jimmy Butler was right. KAT got no fire in him to win and the organization double-down on the attitude by bringing his friend D'Angelo Russell in. Mentally they are the softest team in the league and it's not even close...

...which is why it is an embarrassment for us tonight.

Honestly our team isn't far off. Dating back to 2-3 years ago, Fox and co have always talked about disrespect whenever the media slams him or Fox, but at the end of the day we have not proven the media wrong whatsoever. All bark and no bite.

 

[KainLear]

Honestly our team isn't far off. Dating back to 2-3 years ago, Fox and co have always talked about disrespect whenever the media slams him or Fox, but at the end of the day we have not proven the media wrong whatsoever. All bark and no bite.

I hope that you're wrong.

But I have no proof of that whatsoever.

 

[Livinthedream]

As long as Fox is our best player (assuming he doesn't change), we simply aren't going to be a good team. Not a knock on Fox per se - he just doesn't make guys better right now. He's basically playing like Houston Harden a few years back where his usage is ridiculous and he just scores for himself; he racks up assists but doesn't look to set guys up, if that makes sense. He's at his best when he's just going downhill, but in the long run a team isn't going to win when you go for long stretches of multiple possessions without moving the ball around, even if just one guy is scoring. When Fox has a bad scoring game that's it, we're toast. I will caveat this with my belief that Walton isn't a great coach either, and it's no doubt also a function of coaching and scheme, as well as an overall weak supporting roster.

It's kinda like Westbrook. If you want to win games with him as your main guy you probably need him to score 30-40ppg because he isn't going to elevate the rest of the team in other ways.

Now on the flip side, the good thing is that we do have Hali who is more of a prototypical facilitator. The problem is Fox needs to dribble (a lot) to be a dominant scorer; this makes it quite different from other top perimeter guys like Klay/Curry/Dame/CJ/Durant/Booker etc. who can consistently be scoring threats even without the ball in their hands.

Why am I harping on our best player who just scored 30? Cos we just lost to the frikin T'Wolves while getting torched by Russell and I'm sick of all this talk about how Fox and Hali are going to lead us to the playoffs just like that.

Correct

 

[SwipaTical]

As long as Fox is our best player (assuming he doesn't change), we simply aren't going to be a good team. Not a knock on Fox per se - he just doesn't make guys better right now. He's basically playing like Houston Harden a few years back where his usage is ridiculous and he just scores for himself; he racks up assists but doesn't look to set guys up, if that makes sense. He's at his best when he's just going downhill, but in the long run a team isn't going to win when you go for long stretches of multiple possessions without moving the ball around, even if just one guy is scoring. When Fox has a bad scoring game that's it, we're toast. I will caveat this with my belief that Walton isn't a great coach either, and it's no doubt also a function of coaching and scheme, as well as an overall weak supporting roster.

It's kinda like Westbrook. If you want to win games with him as your main guy you probably need him to score 30-40ppg because he isn't going to elevate the rest of the team in other ways.

Now on the flip side, the good thing is that we do have Hali who is more of a prototypical facilitator. The problem is Fox needs to dribble (a lot) to be a dominant scorer; this makes it quite different from other top perimeter guys like Klay/Curry/Dame/CJ/Durant/Booker etc. who can consistently be scoring threats even without the ball in their hands.

Why am I harping on our best player who just scored 30? Cos we just lost to the frikin T'Wolves while getting torched by Russell and I'm sick of all this talk about how Fox and Hali are going to lead us to the playoffs just like that

I think you're looking way too deep. Not gonna win many games when you're 29th in defense. Even the great lebron James stood no chance with a walton led team. Fox is fine.

 

[steelevt]

Can someone just tell me what to do cuz I think I’m doing it wrong. Go on a win streak, I start to hope we make the playoffs. Then we lose 9 straight. I guess I jump on the tank wagon. Then we go on another win streak? Ok, play in games I guess. Nope lose 4 straight (so far) including a loss to the t-wolves. I’m afraid to jump on that tank wagon again.

 

[sactowndog]

Can someone just tell me what to do cuz I think I’m doing it wrong. Go on a win streak, I start to hope we make the playoffs. Then we lose 9 straight. I guess I jump on the tank wagon. Then we go on another win streak? Ok, play in games I guess. Nope lose 4 straight (so far) including a loss to the t-wolves. I’m afraid to jump on that tank wagon again.

kings have managed to be 6 games away from 8th and 5 games away from 5th. While other teams move decisively one way or another Monte muddles.

 

[Dongoodboy]

Can someone just tell me what to do cuz I think I’m doing it wrong. Go on a win streak, I start to hope we make the playoffs. Then we lose 9 straight. I guess I jump on the tank wagon. Then we go on another win streak? Ok, play in games I guess. Nope lose 4 straight (so far) including a loss to the t-wolves. I’m afraid to jump on that tank wagon again.

I have been pro-tank all along. Honestly, you look at the starting lineup of Fox-Hali-Buddy-Barnes-Holmes, which team in the West you can comfortably say we are better.

None, maybe the Rockets but I would doubt that if they are full team. OKC may already have a better squad with 30 more draft picks in hand.

 

[mac]

I think you're looking way too deep. Not gonna win many games when you're 29th in defense. Even the great lebron James stood no chance with a walton led team. Fox is fine.

Well .. that Lakers team was 12th in defense and look where that got them. I really don't like it when people point to defense or offense in isolation; it's the mix of the two that get you results. Those Nash PHX teams were bottom 5 in opp ppg and/or def rtg, but still won 50+ games consistently. The year they made the WCF they were 26th in opp ppg and 23rd in def rtg, but 1st on the offensive end of both metrics.

Put it this way, right now, what can you point to that suggests Fox is significantly different from KAT?

It all depends what you mean by Fox is "fine". I don't doubt his ability or potential as a scorer, but I do think it's reasonable to question if he can be the #1 guy on a deep playoff team, which is what we're setting him up to be right now. And let's be real - our entire style of play is designed to get Fox high numbers right now. He's still our best player now, but how far is that going to get us?

 

[Siranthony]

Something is strange the way our team is throwing up bricks the way they have been the last four games. I don't understand the Jekyll and Hyde personality of this team. We are better than we look now. I think the losses against the Spurs and Lakers showed that we need a real rebounder who can compete against physical teams. Since then the team looks totally demoralized. I can't think of what changes other than good coaching (which maybe we don't have) would remedy the situation. Or maybe it's all part of the plan.......

 

[Livinthedream]

No matter what new players are brought in, who starts or comes off the bench, the results are the same. There is something fundamentally wrong with this team. It starts with leadership. Teams take on the personality of their leaders and there is no way around that fact.

 

[serbiangoat]

No matter what new players are brought in, who starts or comes off the bench, the results are the same. There is something fundamentally wrong with this team. It starts with leadership. Teams take on the personality of their leaders and there is no way around that fact.

It' starts with 50million tied to Barnes/Buddy and thinking Fox is a superstar when he's not even an All-Star yet.

 

[ESP47]

Well .. that Lakers team was 12th in defense and look where that got them. I really don't like it when people point to defense or offense in isolation; it's the mix of the two that get you results. Those Nash PHX teams were bottom 5 in opp ppg and/or def rtg, but still won 50+ games consistently. The year they made the WCF they were 26th in opp ppg and 23rd in def rtg, but 1st on the offensive end of both metrics.

Put it this way, right now, what can you point to that suggests Fox is significantly different from KAT?

It all depends what you mean by Fox is "fine". I don't doubt his ability or potential as a scorer, but I do think it's reasonable to question if he can be the #1 guy on a deep playoff team, which is what we're setting him up to be right now. And let's be real - our entire style of play is designed to get Fox high numbers right now. He's still our best player now, but how far is that going to get us?

Those Suns teams always had the best or 2nd best offense with a defensive rating right around 13th-17th or so with a net rating of like +7.

Kings are something like 11th on offense and 30th on defense with a net rating of -4.

It's understandable that the last place defense jumps out at everyone because this team has one of the all time worst defenses in history.

 

[hrdboild]

Yo! We just lost by double digits to the worst team in the league? I don't even think we deserve to make the playoffs if we can't beat Minnesota with a healthy roster. It's bad enough that we keep losing games that we should probably win on paper. The lack of in-game adjustments has been a problem all year long. We had a body of work that showed we could play enough defense to win some tough games though and we apparently can't even apply the lessons we learned during our own brief success into sustained improvement. That is really distressing. This team is too young to blame fatigue. I don't see how any lottery prospect is going to fix this team if they can't even play up to their talent level right now.

 

[Folsomkingsfan]

I think you're looking way too deep. Not gonna win many games when you're 29th in defense. Even the great lebron James stood no chance with a walton led team. Fox is fine.

You guys are both right.

 

[mac]

Those Suns teams always had the best or 2nd best offense with a defensive rating right around 13th-17th or so with a net rating of like +7.

Kings are something like 11th on offense and 30th on defense with a net rating of -4.

It's understandable that the last place defense jumps out at everyone because this team has one of the all time worst defenses in history.

Correct me if I'm we wrong, but this "all time worst" stat is referring to opponent PPG. I don't put too much stock into the "all time" or history aspect of it, simply because scoring is up so much around the league as a result of pace, rules, 3s taken etc. We're also easily averaging around the all time highs in scoring. The relative ranking for this season is what matters, and as we've seen in the example of Phoenix, you can be a bottom 5 team and still be really good if you're that much better offensively.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that we shouldn't need to get better defensively to win games. I'm saying that technically, it's too simplistic to say that the reason we're losing is because of some sort of historically bad defense (which is a point that many media members/talking heads keep simplisticallyrepeating)

 

[206Fan]

Well .. that Lakers team was 12th in defense and look where that got them. I really don't like it when people point to defense or offense in isolation; it's the mix of the two that get you results. Those Nash PHX teams were bottom 5 in opp ppg and/or def rtg, but still won 50+ games consistently. The year they made the WCF they were 26th in opp ppg and 23rd in def rtg, but 1st on the offensive end of both metrics.

Put it this way, right now, what can you point to that suggests Fox is significantly different from KAT?

It all depends what you mean by Fox is "fine". I don't doubt his ability or potential as a scorer, but I do think it's reasonable to question if he can be the #1 guy on a deep playoff team, which is what we're setting him up to be right now. And let's be real - our entire style of play is designed to get Fox high numbers right now. He's still our best player now, but how far is that going to get us?

I kinda predicted that fans will sooner or later start questioning whether or not Fox is a winning player.

With building any team around Fox, you need shooting around him. Most of the top guys in this years’ draft struggle with it. Now that we’ve actually committed to Fox as a franchise player with a 5yr deal, do we consider draft fit? Also, can the Kings afford to sit around and try to develop raw talents?

Next season, it’ll be his 5th season and he’ll only be 24. However, how many more losing/development seasons can we have with him?

I see some parallels with the Cousins’ tenure right now. Cousins’ 5th season was the season where Malone got fired(it could possibly be Fox’s 3rd coach in 5 years after this season). It’s also the year Cousins made his first All-Star appearance. Despite career highs across the board, people were already talking about how he’s not a winning player and that we need to move on from him. Fox isn’t as good as Cousins was, but I think it’s fair to start considering Fox’s projectory and long-term development with this team.

I don't think we can blame Fox for our woes because this is the first real year where has even shown any type of #1 scoring ability. He was a late bloomer. Last year he had flashes, but he was never consistent like this year, nor did he ever take over games the same way. I think we need to give Fox a legitimate #2 star before judging him. We need players that can elevate the team. Just not seeing it from these guys.

I said it before, but I think Fox ends up more like a Kyrie than a Lillard.

 

[Section 101]

Jordan's first seven years in the league people said he would never win a title.

 

[gunks]

Not enough talent and horrible coaching.

Fox is great and should continue to grow. I also have high hopes for Hali.

Buddy and Holmes would probably be coming off the bench on a legit playoff squad. Barnes could probably start on a good team but dude is a 4th option.

Nobody else is worth mentioning.

And that’s the team Vivek considers playoff caliber.

 

[sactowndog]

Not enough talent and horrible coaching.

Fox is great and should continue to grow. I also have high hopes for Hali.

Buddy and Holmes would probably be coming off the bench on a legit playoff squad. Barnes could probably start on a good team but dude is a 4th option.

Nobody else is worth mentioning.

And that’s the team Vivek considers playoff caliber.

Exactly and Monte missed an opportunity to reset and get potentially quality picks when he had the chance. He could have sold high on Barnes and maybe Holmes to get young assets and picks.

Instead he spent second round picks and cap space on guys who won’t move the needle. Only Davis is really young enough to be worth the pick.

 

[sactowndog]

This was a nice loss for the draft cause I had this as a win. Get a few more of these that we “should” win but end up losing. Hello 7th/8th and if we get lucky get a top 4 from the lotto

Sadly we have about the same chance of 7/8 as 9/10

 

[whozit]

Exactly and Monte missed an opportunity to reset and get potentially quality picks when he had the chance. He could have sold high on Barnes and maybe Holmes to get young assets and picks.

Instead he spent second round picks and cap space on guys who won’t move the needle. Only Davis is really young enough to be worth the pick.

I suspect that opportunity wasn't there. Not because some other team wasn't willing but because controlling ownership wouldn't allow it.

If true, that begs the question, even if McNair is competent will he be allowed to do what is necessary? Do you remember his celebratory comments right after getting controlling interest, that this was Sacramento's team (i.e. "Your Team")? Has there been anything that he has done to make you believe that he had an ounce of sincerity since then? He has been in the center of the crap fest that Kangz is known for. He is the elephant in the room.

 

[joemama]

Whether you are pro-tank or pro-play-off this team never fails to disappoint. McNair is an idiot. Barely a step above Vlade.

I think the common factors are the idiots in their ears, i.e., Dumars and Vivek.

 

[dude12]

Hot takes against McNair. Sorry, these are really awful.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Hot takes against McNair. Sorry, these are really awful.

Forget it, Jake. It's InternetTown.

 

[The_Jamal]

I suspect that opportunity wasn't there. Not because some other team wasn't willing but because controlling ownership wouldn't allow it.

If true, that begs the question, even if McNair is competent will he be allowed to do what is necessary? Do you remember his celebratory comments right after getting controlling interest, that this was Sacramento's team (i.e. "Your Team")? Has there been anything that he has done to make you believe that he had an ounce of sincerity since then? He has been in the center of the crap fest that Kangz is known for. He is the elephant in the room.

Nah man, don't you know? He has sources that say we passed on NeSmith and a pick for Barnes. Gotta trust him.

 

[SacTownKid]

My question is how many coaches caught in a FO transition have survived 3 streaks of at least 4-5 consecutive losses in 1 season? Especially after the new GM didn't hit the reset button at the deadline? Especially considering the competition they have had recently?

 

[Tetsujin]

Hot takes against McNair. Sorry, these are really awful.

Could it be the awful coach and expensive contracts left over from the previous regime? No, it’s gotta be the new GM and one of the best young players in the league!

 

[SacTownKid]

Could it be the awful coach and expensive contracts left over from the previous regime? No, it’s gotta be the new GM and one of the best young players in the league!

Well again, that mess will quickly spill onto his plate. He went out and made some very marginal win now moves so the grace period is over. And remember the cloud of Joe Dumars still hangs overhead. Fox is kind of turning into Mike Malone in some peoples eyes. He was the only thing keep the franchise afloat at that time and while he had his faults, much like Fox, it doesn't even take much effort to see if it you try. Fox has carried a very mediocre coach and it has literally worn him out in the process twice this season.

 

[whozit]

Well again, that mess will quickly spill onto his plate. He went out and made some very marginal win now moves so the grace period is over. And remember the cloud of Joe Dumars still hangs overhead. Fox is kind of turning into Mike Malone in some peoples eyes. He was the only thing keep the franchise afloat at that time and while he had his faults, much like Fox, it doesn't even take much effort to see if it you try. Fox has carried a very mediocre coach and it has literally worn him out in the process twice this season.

If the Kings don't make the play-in AND Walton is still here then yes it should go on his plate. Dumars is completely on Vivek. Vlade was Dumars in essence before he became the GM. It would not surprise me if Dumars is Walton's safety blanket or at the very least in Walton's corner.