Kings 3-0 without Tyreke...

[Spike]

Because Petrie failed at filling the roster with what that team needed to be and could be does not make continuing to center around Webber a good thing at the time.

Webber no longer fit and he didn't seem willing to accept another role.

I can't believe I'm having this debate. I mean come on. This is loony. It's been years. People should know better.

Don't worry, I feel the same way...

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Evans is no Wade, and no Rose.

Good grief, this again? Fine, how about Joe Johnson? Are you willing to say that Evans is as good as Joe Johnson?

 

[Spike]

Good grief, this again? Fine, how about Joe Johnson? Are you willing to say that Evans is as good as Joe Johnson?

No. Johnson has an outside shot. You're right. Evans is like Wade, without the dunking and the driving and the dishing. So, like a homeless man's Larry Hughes, or someone close.

 

[Gary]

Good grief, this again? Fine, how about Joe Johnson? Are you willing to say that Evans is as good as Joe Johnson?

Really? You really think Evans is as good as Rose or Wade?!? REALLY?!

We haven't even found a role for Evans on this team, why the heck would you be comparing him to Johnson?

On INDIVIDUAL TALENT Evans is a top 25 player..... BUT.... (always a but).... in terms of making the team any better than a decent roleplayer would I would say that's still up in the air.... because Evans has not found a role on this team.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

No. Johnson has an outside shot. You're right. Evans is like Wade, without the dunking and the driving and the dishing. So, like a homeless man's Larry Hughes, or someone close.

Johnson is. 443 fg% season, .443 career. Evans is. 439 season, .437 career. That's close enough.

 

[bajaden]

Ah...threads like these take me back to the days of Webber. About the time I quit defending Kings fans to outside peeps.

You know who else would be an "ill-fitting piece" for this team? Dwayne Wade. You know, after we moved him off the ball to SF and told him to spot up. In fact regardless of what Reke is or is not, you can make any great player an ill fitting piece -- just move him out of position and take the ball out of his hands. How do you think DRose would do at SF after we gave the ball to IT? I would ask how you do think Westbrook would do, except Westbrook is fierce and selfish enough IT would porobably go missing and Westbrook wold show up to practice the next day with a bloody ball and a self satisfied smirk on his face. The question isn't turning a great player into an ill-fitting piece. That part's easy (even premeditated?). The question is if you're a stupid enough franchise to do such a thing. You have the potential to make the very worst mistake in the history of the Sacto era, and there have been some doosies.

Well, I'm trying to deal with what is, and not what I think it should be. Thats reality. And its not a reality I wanted, or created. For that you can blame the powers that be. Fill in the names you want, Petrie, Smart, George Bush, or God. Someone decided that Tyreke isn't a PG. And I think that handwriting was on the wall when they decided to draft Jimmer. I can't think of a worse position to put Tyreke in, than to ask him to play SF, taking away every advantage he previously had. Both offensively and defensively. So rather than ***** and moan about how it should be, I'm trying to figure out how to make the situation work. My first choice is to play Tyreke at SG and move Thornton to the bench. We lose some outside shooting, but defensively, we improve dramaticly at that position. And to address you point about Wade. If we had him, thats where we would play him.

But we have to be honest about this thing. Wade has a great midrange game, and Tyreke doesn't. If he did, this wouldn't even be an issue, and Thornton would already be sitting on the bench. The greatest diservice that Westphal did for this team, not counting, trying to get the best player on the team traded, was slowing the progress of Tyreke's overall improvement. For that reason, I would hate to give up on Tyreke. As I said, he's a unique talent, but he can no longer get by on just that talent. He has to improve his game. And this may be the first offseason that anyone is putting real pressure on him to do just that.

I'm a firm believer that players should, can and do improve. Some take longer than others. JT is an example of that. So I'd like to see what Tyreke can bring to the table next season and at the SG positon. Thats where Wade plays, and gets plenty of touches. And if Thornton doesn't like that, then make sure we sign Williams for insurance. But if someone comes and offers me a deal I can't refuse for Tyreke, then thats another story. Because Cousins is the only player on this team I deem untouchable.

 

[Tetsujin]

Well, I'm trying to deal with what is, and not what I think it should be. Thats reality. And its not a reality I wanted, or created. For that you can blame the powers that be. Fill in the names you want, Petrie, Smart, George Bush, or God. Someone decided that Tyreke isn't a PG. And I think that handwriting was on the wall when they decided to draft Jimmer. I can't think of a worse position to put Tyreke in, than to ask him to play SF, taking away every advantage he previously had. Both offensively and defensively. So rather than ***** and moan about how it should be, I'm trying to figure out how to make the situation work. My first choice is to play Tyreke at SG and move Thornton to the bench. We lose some outside shooting, but defensively, we improve dramaticly at that position. And to address you point about Wade. If we had him, thats where we would play him.

But we have to be honest about this thing. Wade has a great midrange game, and Tyreke doesn't. If he did, this wouldn't even be an issue, and Thornton would already be sitting on the bench. The greatest diservice that Westphal did for this team, not counting, trying to get the best player on the team traded, was slowing the progress of Tyreke's overall improvement. For that reason, I would hate to give up on Tyreke. As I said, he's a unique talent, but he can no longer get by on just that talent. He has to improve his game. And this may be the first offseason that anyone is putting real pressure on him to do just that.

I'm a firm believer that players should, can and do improve. Some take longer than others. JT is an example of that. So I'd like to see what Tyreke can bring to the table next season and at the SG positon. Thats where Wade plays, and gets plenty of touches. And if Thornton doesn't like that, then make sure we sign Williams for insurance. But if someone comes and offers me a deal I can't refuse for Tyreke, then thats another story. Because Cousins is the only player on this team I deem untouchable.

Reke at Center

 

[Gary]

Johnson is. 443 fg% season, .443 career. Evans is. 439 season, .437 career. That's close enough.

?!?! so because Evans FG% is almost the same as Johnson's FG% he's the same player? Sorry man but FG% does not make a player.

Kobe Bryant only has a 42.6% this year.. That means Evans > Bryant..

On the other hand..

Steve Novak is shooting 48% FG and a tremendous 48% from 3pt range so he's lightyears ahead of both Evans, and Bryant!!!!

BTW I really do like Novak. I have wanted the Kings to pick him up as a "off the bench" 3pt threat FOREVER!!! I wanted us to use a 2nd round pick and draft him a few years back.

 

[bajaden]

Probably worth mentioning that Webb dominating the ball was still most likely better than the ball dominating trinity of Peja/Brad/Bibby that followed.

I would hardly call Peja a ball dominator. As a matter of fact, I don't think any of those three dominated the ball. I suspect you were speaking in jest. No?

 

[Tetsujin]

I would hardly call Peja a ball dominator. As a matter of fact, I don't think any of those three dominated the ball. I suspect you were speaking in jest. No?

It was in semi-jest. THe key point being that pretty much every single team that has ever done anything has gotten to that point by riding their big dogs.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Really? You really think Evans is as good as Rose or Wade?!? REALLY?!

Whether or not Evans is as good as Wade or Rose is not the god damned point. Well, it might be Brick's point, or somebody else's point, but it's not my point.

My point is that I am ****ing sick and tired of seeing people here go all apoplectic and BSOD and, I don't know, Rage Comic-y, and reject the point outright because the name of the sainted Wade is invoked. I want to establish common ground, so that a point can be argued, for or against, on its own merit, and I want to know what it's going to take.

I mean, okay, Evans isn't as good as one of the five best players in the entire league, I guess you showed us. What is the value of Player X? Who in the hell are we allowed to use as a player comparison? Who is Player X equal to, that will enable us to go back to having arguments without people being compelled to pollute the discussion with any more of this OMGREKENOTGOODASPLAERXWTFBBQ~! brand of verbal diarrhea? Who's the guy? Who are we allowed to compare Evans to, that is not going to invoke this utter brain lock?

The gist of the argument is, you can't take a ball-dominant player, and then tell them to play off the ball, and then expect them to be good at it in less than a year. What player are we allowed to compare Evans to, that is going to stop people from immediately rejecting that argument out of hand?

 

[Spike]

Johnson is. 443 fg% season, .443 career. Evans is. 439 season, .437 career. That's close enough.

Sorry Slim, I was being facetious.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

?!?! so because Evans FG% is almost the same as Johnson's FG% he's the same player? Sorry man but FG% does not make a player.

Kobe Bryant only has a 42.6% this year.. That means Evans > Bryant..

On the other hand..

Steve Novak is shooting 48% FG and a tremendous 48% from 3pt range so he's lightyears ahead of both Evans, and Bryant!!!!

BTW I really do like Novak. I have wanted the Kings to pick him up as a "off the bench" 3pt threat FOREVER!!! I wanted us to use a 2nd round pick and draft him a few years back.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Kobe Bryant has been in the league sixteen years. The numbers say that he is not a. 429 shooter, so much as he is having a bad shooting season. Contrast him with Joe Johnson who, after eleven years in the league, I think we can comfortably say is a. 443 shooter. For as much as Johnson is supposed to be a better jump shooter than Evans, he's still only. 006 better for his career than Evans, better jump shot, and all. Water seeks its own level, at some point.

 

[jpsls]

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Kobe Bryant has been in the league sixteen years. The numbers say that he is not a. 429 shooter, so much as he is having a bad shooting season. Contrast him with Joe Johnson who, after eleven years in the league, I think we can comfortably say is a. 443 shooter. For as much as Johnson is supposed to be a better jump shooter than Evans, he's still only. 006 better for his career than Evans, better jump shot, and all. Water seeks its own level, at some point.

Joe Johnson is a perimeter player while Evans lives in the paint, which is why the FG% are so close.

 

[jpsls]

?!?! so because Evans FG% is almost the same as Johnson's FG% he's the same player? Sorry man but FG% does not make a player.

Kobe Bryant only has a 42.6% this year.. That means Evans > Bryant..

On the other hand..

Steve Novak is shooting 48% FG and a tremendous 48% from 3pt range so he's lightyears ahead of both Evans, and Bryant!!!!

BTW I really do like Novak. I have wanted the Kings to pick him up as a "off the bench" 3pt threat FOREVER!!! I wanted us to use a 2nd round pick and draft him a few years back.

Instead we used our first round pick to draft a one dimensional 3 point shooter so he could sell tickets.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Joe Johnson is a perimeter player while Evans lives in the paint, which is why the FG% are so close.

If that's all there was to it, one of their FG% should be closer to James Harden or John Wall, respectively.

 

[Gary]

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Kobe Bryant has been in the league sixteen years. The numbers say that he is not a. 429 shooter, so much as he is having a bad shooting season. Contrast him with Joe Johnson who, after eleven years in the league, I think we can comfortably say is a. 443 shooter. For as much as Johnson is supposed to be a better jump shooter than Evans, he's still only. 006 better for his career than Evans, better jump shot, and all. Water seeks its own level, at some point.

You can't toss player fg% out there and say they are just as good as one another because they are close in overall %.

Also, Evans is NOT even close to being a better jumpshooter as Joe Johnson. Maybe down the road he can develop a jump shot, but as it stands now all those fg% you are throwing out don't mean a lick of anything if the players aren't even close in play style. Not to mention FG% doesn't even tell a fraction of the story.

 

[The Hammer]

Tyreke at this point is best used as trade bait. Williams might have come to this team and made Tyreke expendable. So far, Williams kinda seems to be what we had hoped Tyreke would turn into by this year. Hard to not look at him and see that.

I didn't quote this to reply.

I quoted this so you'd be forced to have to re-read what you wrote. I encourage others to do the same.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

You can't toss player fg% out there and say they are just as good as one another because they are close in overall %.

Also, Evans is NOT even close to being a better jumpshooter as Joe Johnson. Maybe down the road he can develop a jump shot, but as it stands now all those fg% you are throwing out don't mean a lick of anything if the players aren't even close in play style. Not to mention FG% doesn't even tell a fraction of the story.

Even with a better jump shot, Johnson is only 0.6% better at converting field goals, so he certainly doesn't appear to be that much more effective.

And, I'm jumping off this tangent, and I'll ask again, who's the guy? Who is the guy? Stop giving me **** over who's not an accurate comparison, and just tell me who the **** is, already! Who's going to put this madness to an end?

 

[Gary]

If that's all there was to it, one of their FG% should be closer to James Harden or John Wall, respectively.

You have seen Evans, and Johnson play right? Their games are nothing alike.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

You have seen Evans, and Johnson play right? Their games are nothing alike.

Damn it, who is the guy? Give me a name, so I can get off this train!

 

[Spike]

Even with a better jump shot, Johnson is only 0.6% better at converting field goals, so he certainly doesn't appear to be that much more effective.

And, I'm jumping off this tangent, and I'll ask again, who's the guy? Who is the guy? Stop giving me **** over who's not an accurate comparison, and just tell me who the **** is, already! Who's going to put this madness to an end?

Maybe the reason is that there is no apt comparison. We have a unique, one of a kind, talent. We're wasting a unique, one of a kind, talent.

 

[Gary]

Even with a better jump shot, Johnson is only 0.6% better at converting field goals, so he certainly doesn't appear to be that much more effective.

And, I'm jumping off this tangent, and I'll ask again, who's the guy? Who is the guy? Stop giving me **** over who's not an accurate comparison, and just tell me who the **** is, already! Who's going to put this madness to an end?

I can't even reply to your posts because I have no idea what kind of point you are trying to prove.

The ONLY stat you threw out there was FG% and then compared a couple players to each other who are nothing alike. Then you bring up converting FGs as if that's the end all to tell if a player is as good as another payer.

So would you rather have Novak over Evans? They are both playing SF right now, and Novak is hitting 48% of his FGs and 3pt shots. That must mean he's better than Evans right? You can't expect to toss out one stat and compare two different players with that one stat and then argue it. Doesn't make sense.

 

[Gary]

Damn it, who is the guy? Give me a name, so I can get off this train!

OK I can troll with the best of them, but I was one upped today. You can usually catch me on youtube messing with the Adele and all the other crappy top40 channels Well played. I totally thought you were serious there for a minute.

 

[rainmaker]

Maybe the reason is that there is no apt comparison. We have a unique, one of a kind, talent. We're wasting a unique, one of a kind, talent.

Here's another question to ponder. Name another coach in the league misusing a talent on Reke's level to the extent Smart is.

That's another aspect which makes comparisons to Reke tougher. Every other players of his talent isn't misused and played out of position to this extent.

 

[Spike]

Here's another question to ponder. Name another coach in the league misusing a talent on Reke's level to the extent Smart is.

That's another aspect which makes comparisons to Reke tougher. Every other players of his talent isn't misused and played out of position to this extent.

I was going to save Smart for later, but you beat me to it.
If Smart can't figure him out, I don't think Evans needs to be moved. Smart is a green coach with small ball experience. It's what he did at GS. It's what he's doing here. If someone like JVG, Sloan, or Mac can't figure him out, then I'm going to tend to believe them a little more. OK, a lot more. They have experience.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

OK I can troll with the best of them, but I was one upped today. You can usually catch me on youtube messing with the Adele and all the other crappy top40 channels Well played. I totally thought you were serious there for a minute.

What am I meant to interpret from this statement, that there is no guy? Are you telling me that there is no player in the NBA that I can compare Evans to in an argument, that you will not immediately dismiss and reject the argument based on the comparison itself?

Because that is what you have been doing. In this thread, alone, you have disregarded a valid argument because it compared Tyreke Evans to Dwyane Wade, and you have dismissed a valid argument because it compared Tyreke Evans to Joe Johnson. Since you will not be satisfied by any name that is presented to you, then you need to accept the responsibility of picking a name that will satisfy you, and tell us what it is.

Who is Player X?

 

[rainmaker]

I was going to save Smart for later, but you beat me to it.
If Smart can't figure him out, I don't think Evans needs to be moved. Smart is a green coach with small ball experience. It's what he did at GS. It's what he's doing here. If someone like JVG, Sloan, or Mac can't figure him out, then I'm going to tend to believe them a little more. OK, a lot more. They have experience.

If you were to make a list of the top 10 coaches in the league(sure some lists would be different), and maybe include a few possible coaches who might return to coaching(McMillian/Sloan/JVG/etc), how many with this roster would start an IT/MT/Reke 3 guard trio, with Reke completely taking a backseat to the other two?

I can't think of one. If Reke was failing as a SG in a system under a proven coach after having at least a season to actually learn the system and the position, I'd be much more willing to listen to offers or consider other options. But I can't think of one of the better coaches in the league(not even saying the best coaches) who would do to Reke with this roster what we're currently seeing.

 

[Spike]

If you were to make a list of the top 10 coaches in the league(sure some lists would be different), and maybe include a few possible coaches who might return to coaching(McMillian/Sloan/JVG/etc), how many with this roster would start an IT/MT/Reke 3 guard trio, with Reke completely taking a backseat to the other two?

I can't think of one. If Reke was failing as a SG in a system under a proven coach after having at least a season to actually learn the system and the position, I'd be much more willing to listen to offers or consider other options. But I can't think of one of the better coaches in the league(not even saying the best coaches) who would do to Reke with this roster what we're currently seeing.

Exactly.

 

[Gary]

What am I meant to interpret from this statement, that there is no guy? Are you telling me that there is no player in the NBA that I can compare Evans to in an argument, that you will not immediately dismiss and reject the argument based on the comparison itself?

Because that is what you have been doing. In this thread, alone, you have disregarded a valid argument because it compared Tyreke Evans to Dwyane Wade, and you have dismissed a valid argument because it compared Tyreke Evans to Joe Johnson. Since you will not be satisfied by any name that is presented to you, then you need to accept the responsibility of picking a name that will satisfy you, and tell us what it is.

Who is Player X?

Poor man's Wade circa 2003.........

Rose from his rookie year without the court vision or athleticism...

Reaching here, but maybe a Steve Francis without the jumpshot....

Jrue Holiday with a better all around game, but not as good of court vision?

It's really hard because Evans is at a crossroads. He has the tools of players that were in developmental stages of their careers but he's pretty much leveled off at that developmental stage. Wade, and Rose got better, but of course they have been in the league longer. But they did show improvement where Evans has not.

A lot of the people on the board here take chunks of games and say Evans is improving but don't look at the whole year where his gameplay has been down from years past. So if some stats guy comes through here 20 years from now and looks at Evans stats and the Kings record, would he look at it and say Evans was an improved player? Not that it matters much of course, but watching every game I can say that improvement over 5-8 games does not make a bit of difference if the entire year he's played below what he's capable of.

Show me a year of improved play.