KING DEMAR

twslam07 said:
I think playing with Monk has helped him develop that skill. He very often defers to him when they’re on the court together.

I’m not really worried about Fox playing off the ball considering he can space the floor for DeRozan. I’m immensely more worried about DeRozan playing off the ball considering he’s not a good floor spacer for Fox. We’ll have to see how it works/plays out…
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Considering that DeRozan is a threat with the ball in his hands even at the three point line -- where he can take two dribbles then rise up for a high percentage mid-range shot -- his presence on the court might not impact spacing that much. He isn't another big who can be left wide open out there. If they do leave him wide open he can also catch the ball and drive into an out of position defender which is likely to earn him a trip to the free throw line or result in a pass back out to a wide open shooter. All good outcomes for our offense. And I think most of us would be happy if the Kings weren't quite so fixated on only shooting threes. More layers to the offense would make it tougher to predict and thus tougher to defend.
 
hrdboild said:
Considering that DeRozan is a threat with the ball in his hands even at the three point line -- where he can take two dribbles then rise up for a high percentage mid-range shot -- his presence on the court might not impact spacing that much. He isn't another big who can be left wide open out there. If they do leave him wide open he can also catch the ball and drive into an out of position defender which is likely to earn him a trip to the free throw line or result in a pass back out to a wide open shooter. All good outcomes for our offense. And I think most of us would be happy if the Kings weren't quite so fixated on only shooting threes. More layers to the offense would make it tougher to predict and thus tougher to defend.
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I never made a claim counter to the bolded.

Funny enough, a players ability to space the floor can help a team score in ways other than threes considering it opens up the lane.

Taking two dribbles into the arc gives a lot more time for defenses to shift and recover which gives opposing defenses the luxury to sag off of DeRozan knowing they will have more time to recover. I’m not saying DeRozan is equivalent to playing a C from a floor spacing standpoint but it’s definitely something that can collapse/condense the paint more than what we’ve been used to.

It really boils down to these questions…do you think the floor will be better spaced with DeRozan in the lineup vs. Barnes? I don’t. So the next question becomes will the reduction in floor spacing hurt us or put a cap on our offensive ceiling? I’m not sure yet.
 
twslam07 said:
I never made a claim counter to the bolded.

Funny enough, a players ability to space the floor can help a team score in ways other than threes considering it opens up the lane.

Taking two dribbles into the arc gives a lot more time for defenses to shift and recover which gives opposing defenses the luxury to sag off of DeRozan knowing they will have more time to recover. I’m not saying DeRozan is equivalent to playing a C from a floor spacing standpoint but it’s definitely something that can collapse/condense the paint more than what we’ve been used to.

It really boils down to these questions…do you think the floor will be better spaced with DeRozan in the lineup vs. Barnes? I don’t. So the next question becomes will the reduction in floor spacing hurt us or put a cap on our offensive ceiling? I’m not sure yet.
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How were there high scoring offenses before the 3 point shot volume went way up? How did those teams create enough space to be successful
 
twslam07 said:
I never made a claim counter to the bolded.

Funny enough, a players ability to space the floor can help a team score in ways other than threes considering it opens up the lane.

Taking two dribbles into the arc gives a lot more time for defenses to shift and recover which gives opposing defenses the luxury to sag off of DeRozan knowing they will have more time to recover. I’m not saying DeRozan is equivalent to playing a C from a floor spacing standpoint but it’s definitely something that can collapse/condense the paint more than what we’ve been used to.

It really boils down to these questions…do you think the floor will be better spaced with DeRozan in the lineup vs. Barnes? I don’t. So the next question becomes will the reduction in floor spacing hurt us or put a cap on our offensive ceiling? I’m not sure yet.
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That's just it... I don't think the floor spacing will be worse with DeRozan taking Barnes' spot on the floor. I think you can put DeRozan in the same spots on the floor and even if he isn't equivalent as a catch and shoot three point threat, he can create offense from those positions because he's a threat to drive or pass and he's really hard to check one on one. His defender can't sag off and recover because he's already gotten to his spot by the time they recover and he's absolutely elite at scoring over, around, and through defenders once he's at his spot.

I don't know if you watched that 176-175 2OT game against the Clippers a year ago. What I remember most about that game is Kawhi Leonard scoring from the mid-range just about every time down the floor in the 4th and OT. With all the talk about spacing and three point shooting taking over the NBA I think some of these analysts have forgotten that the scariest thing in basketball isn't a team that consistently shoots 38-40% from three, it's a player who scores every time down the floor no matter what you do to try and stop them. We had a taste of that already with Fox and now we have another 4th Quarter specialist who can and does go on that sort of run with regularity.
 
hrdboild said:
That's just it... I don't think the floor spacing will be worse with DeRozan taking Barnes' spot on the floor. I think you can put DeRozan in the same spots on the floor and even if he isn't equivalent as a catch and shoot three point threat, he can create offense from those positions because he's a threat to drive or pass and he's really hard to check one on one. His defender can't sag off and recover because he's already gotten to his spot by the time they recover and he's absolutely elite at scoring over, around, and through defenders once he's at his spot.

I don't know if you watched that 176-175 2OT game against the Clippers a year ago. What I remember most about that game is Kawhi Leonard scoring from the mid-range just about every time down the floor in the 4th and OT. With all the talk about spacing and three point shooting taking over the NBA I think some of these analysts have forgotten that the scariest thing in basketball isn't a team that consistently shoots 38-40% from three, it's a player who scores every time down the floor no matter what you do to try and stop them. We had a taste of that already with Fox and now we have another 4th Quarter specialist who can and does go on that sort of run with regularity.
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I'm somewhere in the middle here. DeRozan WILL have to take and make some catch and shoot threes, but by and large he shouldn't have too much of a negative effect on spacing because letting him catch the ball at the three point line with several steps of cushion just gives him a runway to attack the midrange or get all the way to the basket.

Barnes' shooting definitely meant his man couldn't help too far off so that opened up things for Domas to operate in the high post and Fox to attack the paint. But HB (at least most nights) wasn't great at attacking closeouts or making plays on offense with the ball in his hands. DeRozan will put DIFFERENT pressure on defenses when he gets the ball beyond the arc and immediately attacks his man for helping off too far.
 
hrdboild said:
That's just it... I don't think the floor spacing will be worse with DeRozan taking Barnes' spot on the floor. I think you can put DeRozan in the same spots on the floor and even if he isn't equivalent as a catch and shoot three point threat, he can create offense from those positions because he's a threat to drive or pass and he's really hard to check one on one. His defender can't sag off and recover because he's already gotten to his spot by the time they recover and he's absolutely elite at scoring over, around, and through defenders once he's at his spot.

I don't know if you watched that 176-175 2OT game against the Clippers a year ago. What I remember most about that game is Kawhi Leonard scoring from the mid-range just about every time down the floor in the 4th and OT. With all the talk about spacing and three point shooting taking over the NBA I think some of these analysts have forgotten that the scariest thing in basketball isn't a team that consistently shoots 38-40% from three, it's a player who scores every time down the floor no matter what you do to try and stop them. We had a taste of that already with Fox and now we have another 4th Quarter specialist who can and does go on that sort of run with regularity.
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Then that is where we disagree.

I’m full on expecting the spacing to be worse with DeRozan in the lineup vs. Barnes. Teams can sag off DeRozan more than Barnes knowing…
  1. He’s not a good 3 pt shooter so if the defense can’t rotate quickly enough, it won’t be as bad of a result as having someone like Barnes take the shot
  2. If DeRozan passes up the open 3 and puts the ball on the ground, that gives the defense that much more time to rotate and cut him off. There’s a reason why teams don’t have 5 guys with DeRozan’s shooting ability out there at one time. It can be something defenses try to exploit to give them a slight edge.


Now just because the spacing will be worse it doesn’t mean we don’t have the talent to overcome that lack of spacing, more congested lanes, etc. and hit contested shots at a high enough clip (we certainly have our fair share of difficult shot makers). However, I think these questions remain unanswered for me…
  1. Can the talent upgrade overcome the worse floor spacing?
  2. And if it can overcome it (meaning we have a better offensive season vs. last year), can it overcome it enough to where it can be relied on deep into the playoffs?

I’m not convinced that the answer to those questions is what we all want to hear, but one thing is for sure…it’ll be really interesting to watch our offense this year. ;)
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
How were there high scoring offenses before the 3 point shot volume went way up? How did those teams create enough space to be successful
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There’s been a league wide trend for years now where ORTG has been increasing while 3PA has also been increasing.

As for your comment and how it relates to my post, I didn’t say that we couldn’t overcome the worse floor spacing. We’ll have to see if the talent upgrade is enough to overcome that decrease in spacing.

But the key question for me at the end of the day (which ties in with your post and my comment above referencing the league wide trend in ORTG)…is the talent upgrade able to overcome the lack of spacing enough to catapult us up to being a top offensive team in the league and an offense that can’t be throttled deep in the playoffs?

I’m not overly optimistic that a team with DeRozan and Sabonis getting 34+ mpg is going to be a top defensive team in the league, but I do think we can put the right defensive pieces around them and be in that top 10-15 range defensively. That means our offense is going to need to be in that top 5 range if we want to one day enter contender discussions.

Essentially 2 things can be true at once…
  1. Our offense/ORTG improved after we swapped DeRozan for Barnes
  2. Our offense/ORTG is not able to jump into that elite category because the lack of spacing lowers our offensive ceiling.
The jury is still out for both of those questions but both of those questions need to have favorable answers if we want to try and compete one day with this current core.
 
twslam07 said:
There’s been a league wide trend for years now where ORTG has been increasing while 3PA has also been increasing.

As for your comment and how it relates to my post, I didn’t say that we couldn’t overcome the worse floor spacing. We’ll have to see if the talent upgrade is enough to overcome that decrease in spacing.

But the key question for me at the end of the day (which ties in with your post and my comment above referencing the league wide trend in ORTG)…is the talent upgrade able to overcome the lack of spacing enough to catapult us up to being a top offensive team in the league and an offense that can’t be throttled deep in the playoffs?

I’m not overly optimistic that a team with DeRozan and Sabonis getting 34+ mpg is going to be a top defensive team in the league, but I do think we can put the right defensive pieces around them and be in that top 10-15 range defensively. That means our offense is going to need to be in that top 5 range if we want to one day enter contender discussions.

Essentially 2 things can be true at once…
  1. Our offense/ORTG improved after we swapped DeRozan for Barnes
  2. Our offense/ORTG is not able to jump into that elite category because the lack of spacing lowers our offensive ceiling.
The jury is still out for both of those questions but both of those questions need to have favorable answers if we want to try and compete one day with this current core.
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I don't think the front office really thinks they can win a championship. They want to win 50 games and a playoff series or two... then re-evaluate from there
 
twslam07 said:
Well that counts as “deep in the playoffs” so, yes, that’s still my question :)
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I think they would have won 50+ games last season, if Keon Ellis had been the starter for most of the season. With the addition of DeRozan, and Keon still in the starting lineup, I think they're a better team.

McNair has done the best that he reasonably could have this off season. Will be interesting to see how it unfolds
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
I think they would have won 50+ games last season, if Keon Ellis had been the starter for most of the season. With the addition of DeRozan, and Keon still in the starting lineup, I think they're a better team.

McNair has done the best that he reasonably could have this off season. Will be interesting to see how it unfolds
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I’ve been on the record multiple times that I like the low risk move by McNair. If it doesn’t work out, he has maintained many assets to pivot, but just because I like the calculated risk, it doesn’t mean I feel very confident that it can reach the offensive ceiling we’d need to reach to be a top team.

You very well could be right on our record from last year but we need to keep in mind the improvements of other teams in the west. It’s not just about our improvements. It’s about our improvements relative to their improvements.
 
Jason Timpf was on the DLo and KC show (they are both out for this interview) he always offers fair takes on the kings and around the nba. His interview starts at the 4 hour and 3 minute mark. He believes the kings and bulls ran a similar offense and that his transition and fit will be easy. He does have concerns about the kings defense and still thinks we need an athletic 4 that can play defense. Check it out, he included a ton of advanced metrics including DDR’s ppp on open catch and shoot opportunities

https://www.youtube.com/live/Ua_AqWvQZUY?si=009BIgVopsHMMCx-
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
I don't think the front office really thinks they can win a championship. They want to win 50 games and a playoff series or two... then re-evaluate from there
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This exactly, success brings an engaged fanbase which brings expectations. They knew if they didn’t deliver something this off-season it would be torches and pitch-forks. I think the kings are a handful of role players away from cracking the top 5. Some of those players may already be in the organization, but it remains to be seen. It’s about keeping the fans happy enough with results to continue going to games in the meantime.
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
I think they would have won 50+ games last season, if Keon Ellis had been the starter for most of the season. With the addition of DeRozan, and Keon still in the starting lineup, I think they're a better team.

McNair has done the best that he reasonably could have this off season. Will be interesting to see how it unfolds
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Honestly, you do get teams like the Celtics this year, or the Warriors with KD, but the NBA has now seen 6 straight different champions. And I think any team that's like 55+wins-ish basically has the opportunity to go win a title; if they run into good luck with injuries and health with their own team.

Pacers as a perfect example this past year. Good team, but ran into a MIL squad no Dame/Giannis and a NYK squad no Randle/OG/Bojan, etc.
 
twslam07 said:
Then that is where we disagree.

I’m full on expecting the spacing to be worse with DeRozan in the lineup vs. Barnes. Teams can sag off DeRozan more than Barnes knowing…
  1. He’s not a good 3 pt shooter so if the defense can’t rotate quickly enough, it won’t be as bad of a result as having someone like Barnes take the shot
  2. If DeRozan passes up the open 3 and puts the ball on the ground, that gives the defense that much more time to rotate and cut him off. There’s a reason why teams don’t have 5 guys with DeRozan’s shooting ability out there at one time. It can be something defenses try to exploit to give them a slight edge.


Now just because the spacing will be worse it doesn’t mean we don’t have the talent to overcome that lack of spacing, more congested lanes, etc. and hit contested shots at a high enough clip (we certainly have our fair share of difficult shot makers). However, I think these questions remain unanswered for me…
  1. Can the talent upgrade overcome the worse floor spacing?
  2. And if it can overcome it (meaning we have a better offensive season vs. last year), can it overcome it enough to where it can be relied on deep into the playoffs?

I’m not convinced that the answer to those questions is what we all want to hear, but one thing is for sure…it’ll be really interesting to watch our offense this year. ;)
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They can’t sag off derozan. He will if they do he has the step on them to hit the midrange.
 
Folsomkingsfan said:
He didn't think the Kings gave up much for him, but also doesn't think DeRozan is enough of a needle mover to justify Barnes and an unprotected swap going into age 35. Again, I don't think this is an unreasonable take.
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Believing that a perennial all-star the class of DeRozan isn’t a needle mover over Harrison Barnes is the classic example of an unreasonable take. Especially considering the widespread media opinion on HB while the KINGS were the ones with him on the roster and extending his contract last year.

Folsomkingsfan said:
There is a totally realistic chance the Kings are rebuilding when that pick conveys. But he also thinks this was a move the Kings needed to make because of their current team make up and their previous 15 years of futility. The more I think about, the more I think he actually has the perfect take on the situation lol.
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There’s a totally realistic chance the Knicks and Suns are rebuilding when some of their future picks convey as well. And most of those are outright draft picks, not swaps. Yet those org’s aren’t receiving the same level of skepticism and criticism from the likes of this guy.

I got news for you — it’s nowhere near the perfect take on the situation. Not even close.
 
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