Kevn Martin's injury a blessing in disguise

[SacTownGrantFan]

exactly... people seem to block out the fact that mason and may were starting.... we were playing 3 on 5 on offense... it has less to do with the tyreke/martin backcourt than it did with having our starting sf and c averaging 5 points a game... when martin comes back having beno come off the bench wont change anything because now that evans is a bit more comfortable scoring he can give martin a rest at the 2 when beno comes in and there wont be such a huge drop off in scoring. mason was horrible, may is horrible and oddly enough he hasnt played since martin went down...

i dont know why everyone wants to trade players when another player plays well.... unless of course youre talking about nocioni or beno being traded.

Listen, we use Martin for 1 reason: to score the ball. He is not an all around player. If we are an efficient offense without Martin, we would be better trading for actual needs such as defense, blocks, rebounding, etc.

 

[SacTownGrantFan]

Was until I got a feel for our presumed #1's game.

If for instance our #1 had been Amare...just to bring up a name tossed around last year, or Bosh, those pairings with Kevin made sense. Now I think we would still have lost -- pairing up two softies doesn't make one "hardie". But they would have complemented each other to a certain degree, the classic inside/outside pairing, and players with a similar "feel" -- i.e. soft big scorers most comfortable in an uptempo no defense setting. They actually would not have worked at all minus a third cirtical piece in that case -- the mythical pure point long talked about around here that would be needed to get the ball not only to two hungry scorers, but set up everyone else as well since the hungry scorers in question don't make anybody else but themselves better. But there would be a theory there -- a coherent team picture where the pieces fit. I could also have seen Kevin with a star pure PG type -- the problem tehre being many/most of those are very soft themselves and again maybe there is no defense in Sactown. But a player who spent most of his time trying to set others up, including Kevin, could have fit. In that case Kevin is probably even still the #1 scorer, just not the #1 most important player.

But now along comes Reke...and even setting the first 5 games aside, where he was clearly deferring too much to Kevin and muting his impact as we did our normal losing thing, Reke's game does not seem suited for a Kevin style wing scorer. And I mean this setting aside whether Kevin can coherently fit into a crew winning games on heart and hustle. I am referring to offense.

Think about Kevin's game, here would be elements:
1) 3pt shooting
2) leak outs on the break
3) one on ones, normally with picks etc. to get him room
4) cuts/backdoor cuts
5) popping free off of staggered screens

now 1) and 2) can work with Reke's game. But 3) takes the ball out of his hands, and unlike the current situation where it is then in Beno's hands, who is a capable PG able to get others involved wiht plays on the other side of the court, instead it goes to a player who is basically only good at setting himself up to score. Team involvement plummets. It becomes whatever Reke can produce for others, and then Kevin gets his own. #'s 4 & 5 as I have mentioend in the past, largely hijackl entire offensive sets and various teammates who's big purpose is to set up a Kevin shot. Again, while this is going on the ball is essentially out of Reke's hands. Its not an organic thing he can contribute to. Now Reke could work with a star big man -- the big man would be in front of him, he could play pick and roll with him, drop passes off to him, use his screens etc. But put him with Kevin...and its not organic. The structured scoring that Kevin does woudl largely come at the expense of Reke creating. He is reduced to spectator while the play for Kevin either works or doesn't. Nor is Reke of much help as a spot shooter should Kevin's play break down. Now Kevin's 3pt shooting and speed on the break (assuming that he gets the new teamwide dedication to staying in on defense and fighting until that ball is secured) both could fit. Those things fit naturally around Reke's game. But those two traits alone are possessed by quite a few players in the NBA, including a number of roleplayers who provide extra help in other areas of the game (defense etc.). If that is all you use Kevin for, you are wasting him (and his $11mil), and you are not really gaining all those other areas (defense) etc. you could with a more limited offensive player who did other things well.

Its not Kevin changing as a #2 option (although I have long said I think he would be a great #3 ala Ray Allen, but have less confidence in him as #2). Its about the apparent #1 we have found here. If CWebb were still here as a #1 (in his prime obviously) Kevin could have played the Peja #2 role, and well. Put Kevin out in Phoenix next to Nash and Amare in the run n gun and his scoring should be huge. But now put him there next to Tyreke Evans...and it begins to look apples and oranges. Like two guys with talent who share a backcourt and take turns rather than two guys who complement each other and make the other player, and team better.

That does not mean that I am 100% sure that if Kevin returns we'll get worse. I could see it happening, but I don't consider Kevin a cancer so much as just somebody who is by the very nature of his game going to compete for the ball with a player who makes thing happen. So mayeb the additinal talent outweighs that and we still do the same, or maybe even better. But do we do as much better as we would with a different, better fitting piece who we might be able to bring back in a Kevin trade?

I agree, it feels like there is some waste of talent because Reke and Martin's styles do not seem to complement each other. They do not seem to make each other better, but split the ball doing their own thing. No fault for selfishness, just seems to me that their games do not match up style-wise. And from what it looks like, we would be better in the furture with Reke instead of Martin, no doubt about it.

 

[Kingster]

Was until I got a feel for our presumed #1's game.

If for instance our #1 had been Amare...just to bring up a name tossed around last year, or Bosh, those pairings with Kevin made sense. Now I think we would still have lost -- pairing up two softies doesn't make one "hardie". But they would have complemented each other to a certain degree, the classic inside/outside pairing, and players with a similar "feel" -- i.e. soft big scorers most comfortable in an uptempo no defense setting. They actually would not have worked at all minus a third cirtical piece in that case -- the mythical pure point long talked about around here that would be needed to get the ball not only to two hungry scorers, but set up everyone else as well since the hungry scorers in question don't make anybody else but themselves better. But there would be a theory there -- a coherent team picture where the pieces fit. I could also have seen Kevin with a star pure PG type -- the problem tehre being many/most of those are very soft themselves and again maybe there is no defense in Sactown. But a player who spent most of his time trying to set others up, including Kevin, could have fit. In that case Kevin is probably even still the #1 scorer, just not the #1 most important player.

But now along comes Reke...and even setting the first 5 games aside, where he was clearly deferring too much to Kevin and muting his impact as we did our normal losing thing, Reke's game does not seem suited for a Kevin style wing scorer. And I mean this setting aside whether Kevin can coherently fit into a crew winning games on heart and hustle. I am referring to offense.

Think about Kevin's game, here would be elements:
1) 3pt shooting
2) leak outs on the break
3) one on ones, normally with picks etc. to get him room
4) cuts/backdoor cuts
5) popping free off of staggered screens

now 1) and 2) can work with Reke's game. But 3) takes the ball out of his hands, and unlike the current situation where it is then in Beno's hands, who is a capable PG able to get others involved wiht plays on the other side of the court, instead it goes to a player who is basically only good at setting himself up to score. Team involvement plummets. It becomes whatever Reke can produce for others, and then Kevin gets his own. #'s 4 & 5 as I have mentioend in the past, largely hijackl entire offensive sets and various teammates who's big purpose is to set up a Kevin shot. Again, while this is going on the ball is essentially out of Reke's hands. Its not an organic thing he can contribute to. Now Reke could work with a star big man -- the big man would be in front of him, he could play pick and roll with him, drop passes off to him, use his screens etc. But put him with Kevin...and its not organic. The structured scoring that Kevin does woudl largely come at the expense of Reke creating. He is reduced to spectator while the play for Kevin either works or doesn't. Nor is Reke of much help as a spot shooter should Kevin's play break down. Now Kevin's 3pt shooting and speed on the break (assuming that he gets the new teamwide dedication to staying in on defense and fighting until that ball is secured) both could fit. Those things fit naturally around Reke's game. But those two traits alone are possessed by quite a few players in the NBA, including a number of roleplayers who provide extra help in other areas of the game (defense etc.). If that is all you use Kevin for, you are wasting him (and his $11mil), and you are not really gaining all those other areas (defense) etc. you could with a more limited offensive player who did other things well.

Its not Kevin changing as a #2 option (although I have long said I think he would be a great #3 ala Ray Allen, but have less confidence in him as #2). Its about the apparent #1 we have found here. If CWebb were still here as a #1 (in his prime obviously) Kevin could have played the Peja #2 role, and well. Put Kevin out in Phoenix next to Nash and Amare in the run n gun and his scoring should be huge. But now put him there next to Tyreke Evans...and it begins to look apples and oranges. Like two guys with talent who share a backcourt and take turns rather than two guys who complement each other and make the other player, and team better.

That does not mean that I am 100% sure that if Kevin returns we'll get worse. I could see it happening, but I don't consider Kevin a cancer so much as just somebody who is by the very nature of his game going to compete for the ball with a player who makes thing happen. So mayeb the additinal talent outweighs that and we still do the same, or maybe even better. But do we do as much better as we would with a different, better fitting piece who we might be able to bring back in a Kevin trade?

#3 has never been and never will be Kevin's game. If you saw it on the court it was because Martin wanted to be something he's not or a coach wanted to be something he's not. It's not even arguable. 1,2, and 4 are all complementary to Tyreke and all can be accomplished in an organic, dyanamic offense, not rigid, static, predetermined sets. (#5 has rarely been used over the years and probably will not be used, so it's moot). Your argument is one that they are inherently incompatible. I don't think that's it at all. It has to do with willingness on the part of the veteran Martin to forego his belief that he can do #3 and subvert what he perceives to be his "game" to that of Tyreke's, or in actuallity that of the team's. Martin has to go back to the "old Martin" of a couple of years ago, but a better older version - shooting 3s, moving without the ball, and short two-dribble drives to the basket. You also left out something. Kevin can definitely post up smaller players. He's shown it repeatedly. If the opposing team uses their two guard to guard Tyreke, Martin has a field day with the little guy. That also augments Tyreke's game.

That's not to say Martin is necessarily the long term answer for the Kings at two guard. He's shown he's injury prone. How can anyone not have doubts about him long term at the 2 with that kind of history? As you know, he's inherently weak is on the defensive end; he can't do it for extended periods because his physique will just not abide it. Personally, I don't want Tyreke to take the harder defensive assignment of the two guards every night on the defensive end. I worry that long term it will wear on him, and it could eventually promote some ill will, as with Shawn Marion with Nash.

 

[Bricklayer]

Kevin can post up? Do tell.

I have seen him try to do so, no doubt recognizing that it makes sense. I am not sure I have ever seen him score out of that position. And if you consider Kevin's personal history that makes sense -- he was the ultimate 90lb weakling for all of his developmental years and probably never posted up a player in his life until he hit the NBA and figured it would be a useful wrinkle to have. Could he learn it? Perhaps. But its another apples and oranges thing for a non-physical finesse player. Methinks this may end up like Peja's post game -- long looked for but just alien to the nature of the player involved. Indeed, I think normally maybe the BEST way you defend Kevin Martin is by putting your PG on him and defending him with quickness. He loves to be matched against slower players. Has had some of his toughest macthups against little guys quick enough to stay in front of him.

 

[SkinnerBox]

Kevin can post up? Do tell.

I have seen him try to do so, no doubt recognizing that it makes sense. I am not sure I have ever seen him score out of that position. And if you consider Kevin's personal history that makes sense -- he was the ultimate 90lb weakling for all of his developmental years and probably never posted up a player in his life until he hit the NBA and figured it would be a useful wrinkle to have. Could he learn it? Perhaps. But its another apples and oranges thing for a non-physical finesse player. Methinks this may end up like Peja's post game -- long looked for but just alien to the nature of the player involved. Indeed, I think normally maybe the BEST way you defend Kevin Martin is by putting your PG on him and defending him with quickness. He loves to be matched against slower players. Has had some of his toughest macthups against little guys quick enough to stay in front of him.

Kevin should probably not ever post up, but you're picking pretty much the weakest part of Kingster's post and arguing with it. His point was not that Kevin was going to become a beast in the post, his point was that Kevin has skills that could be complimentary.

So much of this board has already decided that Kevin and Tyreke can't play together after seeing them for 5 games.

 

[Kingster]

Kevin can post up? Do tell.

I have seen him try to do so, no doubt recognizing that it makes sense. I am not sure I have ever seen him score out of that position. And if you consider Kevin's personal history that makes sense -- he was the ultimate 90lb weakling for all of his developmental years and probably never posted up a player in his life until he hit the NBA and figured it would be a useful wrinkle to have. Could he learn it? Perhaps. But its another apples and oranges thing for a non-physical finesse player. Methinks this may end up like Peja's post game -- long looked for but just alien to the nature of the player involved. Indeed, I think normally maybe the BEST way you defend Kevin Martin is by putting your PG on him and defending him with quickness. He loves to be matched against slower players. Has had some of his toughest macthups against little guys quick enough to stay in front of him.

You better review your memory banks. Martin has oftentimes taken apart little point guards who got switched off on him. A dribble or two, in the paint, rise up, 2 points. Or, he's had his back to the little guy and done a turnaround jumper. You probably just didn't notice. He loves those situations. Other people on this board have also commented to that effect. It may not fit into your picture of Martin, but it is a skill that he has. I've paid particular attention to this because I wondered early-on whether he would be Peja-like in this regard. Teams that tried to play little guys on him like Nelson have gotten burned repeatedly.

 

[Bricklayer]

You better review your memory banks. Martin has oftentimes taken apart little point guards who got switched off on him. A dribble or two, in the paint, rise up, 2 points. Or, he's had his back to the little guy and done a turnaround jumper. You probably just didn't notice. He loves those situations. Other people on this board have also commented to that effect. It may not fit into your picture of Martin, but it is a skill that he has. I've paid particular attention to this because I wondered early-on whether he would be Peja-like in this regard. Teams that tried to play little guys on him like Nelson have gotten burned repeatedly.

I want some video, because that has NOT happened consistently.

When he gets it there normally he ends up passing it back out. Occasinally he will dribbble out of the position.

 

[Telemachus]

exactly... people seem to block out the fact that mason and may were starting.... we were playing 3 on 5 on offense... it has less to do with the tyreke/martin backcourt than it did with having our starting sf and c averaging 5 points a game... when martin comes back having beno come off the bench wont change anything because now that evans is a bit more comfortable scoring he can give martin a rest at the 2 when beno comes in and there wont be such a huge drop off in scoring. mason was horrible, may is horrible and oddly enough he hasnt played since martin went down...

i dont know why everyone wants to trade players when another player plays well.... unless of course youre talking about nocioni or beno being traded.

I think something else that seems to be getting missed is that Evans was playing in his first games as an NBA player. It is only natural that he was going to improve the more games he played. We will never know if that improvement would have been the same if Martin hadn't been injured. I will also remind some that Evans played a couple games on a sprained ankle as well, which hindered him offensively some.

 

[VF21]

I agree, it feels like there is some waste of talent because Reke and Martin's styles do not seem to complement each other. They do not seem to make each other better, but split the ball doing their own thing. No fault for selfishness, just seems to me that their games do not match up style-wise. And from what it looks like, we would be better in the furture with Reke instead of Martin, no doubt about it.

While this might or might not be accurate, I don't see how you can possibly come to that conclusion after seeing them play together for a whole three games. Just as the team is currently working to get to know each other and their respective games, I think it's only fair that we wait for the same thing before jumping to the conclusion that Reke and Martin cannot work efficiently together.

Since Kev wanted Tyreke more than any other player in the draft that was going to be available to us, I'm thinking it's because he (Martin) has every faith in his ability to work with Evans.

 

[bajaden]

Haven't we been saying that Kevin would be best as a #2 option all along? And now we want to ship Kevin out as soon as we get a potential #1, just because the new guy is better?

This forum makes my head hurt.

Join the club..

 

[bajaden]

exactly... people seem to block out the fact that mason and may were starting.... we were playing 3 on 5 on offense... it has less to do with the tyreke/martin backcourt than it did with having our starting sf and c averaging 5 points a game... when martin comes back having beno come off the bench wont change anything because now that evans is a bit more comfortable scoring he can give martin a rest at the 2 when beno comes in and there wont be such a huge drop off in scoring. mason was horrible, may is horrible and oddly enough he hasnt played since martin went down...

i dont know why everyone wants to trade players when another player plays well.... unless of course youre talking about nocioni or beno being traded.

Correcto mundo! The big difference in the play of the team was moving Hawes and Nocioni into the starting lineup. I admit that I'm surprised that we've been able to score as well as we have. The only bad result that I can see possible with Martin's return, is if the sharing of the ball stops. I think the team is having fun out there because everyone feels that their a part of it. They all get their touches.

If Martin can come back and just take whats there, and not try and force it, then I think it can work. It would probably mean less shots for him. Actually, less playing time for him might be beneficial to his overall health.

Reggie Miller had a hell of a career and he always got his points. And he got them by spotting up, and by moving without the ball. I never once felt like Reggie was dominating the ball. But he put a dagger through the hearts of a lot of fans over the years.

 

[VF21]

If people would look back, one of the early digs on Martin - among many - was that he was too unselfish, that he often passed up his own shot to get his teammates involved. I cannot see him changing his character at this point.

 

[Bricklayer]

Reggie Miller had a hell of a career and he always got his points. And he got them by spotting up, and by moving without the ball. I never once felt like Reggie was dominating the ball. But he put a dagger through the hearts of a lot of fans over the years.

But he WAS dominating ther ball, or rather the offense. Put Reke next to Reggie and there might have been a problem too. Indiana spent an enormous amount of time each possession setting dozens of screens while Reggie ran around trying to get open. That was the offense. He was as "time dominant" in his scoring as any of the more ball dominant guys. His PGs were intentionally non scorers. His SF and PF were defensive roleplayers.