Kevin? or Francisco?
- Thread starter sactownsfinest
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Cisco has been exposed to the "big time" more than Kevin. He's been an integral part of a run toward a title, he's even experienced criticism for shrinking under PRESSURE. He's played a big role in a big program under a big coach.
When was The Big Cereal ever exposed to pressure?
Not trying to be argumentative - I'm called Positive Frank because I'm never argumentative. I'm just explaining the source of my OPINION that Cisco is at this moment better equipped to play under pressure.
I think he's older too - not that it means anything absolutely.
When was The Big Cereal ever exposed to pressure?
Not trying to be argumentative - I'm called Positive Frank because I'm never argumentative. I'm just explaining the source of my OPINION that Cisco is at this moment better equipped to play under pressure.
I think he's older too - not that it means anything absolutely.
i absolutely disagree. kevin martin, despite his limited minutes, has already tasted the nba. even if it was just a morsel, he's got a better feel for the nba game than cisco, who hasnt yet stepped onto an nba basketball court. whatever "big time" he's been exposed to in college doesnt mean a whole lot when ya reach the nba. it's already been reported that garcia is frustrated by his play thus far in the summer league. with all the new play sets he's had to learn, don't ya think he might be a little flustered? a flustered player is neither composed or "better equipped to play under pressure." special k already knows the plays the kings run. and he's tearing it up in summer league, completely undaunted by the competition. means nothing as far as the regular season is concerned, but then again, we're just talking about enigmas at this point, anyways. neither is "proven" in the nba. they will have to fight for the starting position, assuming mo evans doesnt come back, and that the kings don't sign or trade for another shooting guard.
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well, from the summer league stats and reports, it looks as if Kevin Martin is doing a superb job compared to Cisco and the rest of the squad. I think this competition between the two of them is only going to better them both. There shouldn't even be an argument over this, we should be excited that there is competition between two young bucks.
Cisco being older and from a "larger" program means nothing at this point. He's a NBA rookie. He's starting over just like everyone else does their rookie year. I think there are some newer posters here like myself who are really pulling for Cisco. However i for one, am not underestimating Martin. I saw him last year and i have heard how hard he has worked to improve this summer. Competition is a good thing and they can battle it out. Martin certainly has the edge. Experience means everything........
Cisco may have been exposed to the 'big time' in college, but this isn't college anymore. Like I said, I expect he will go through the same thing every other rookie goes through. He's even going through a bit of an adjustment in the summer league. It's to be expected. I'm not real sure how the the shrinking under pressure angle helps your argument that he's more ready?
I agree 100% with those who have corrected me in this thread. Kevin was quite obviously holding back last season in deference to the veterans. Lots of great athletes have begun this career in just this way.
I retract my previous posts which gave undeserved "credit" to Cisco based on playing for a first class college program under a first class coach.
I must agree - Cisco's college experience means nothing. It is clearly a misguided notion that years spent in a first class college program translate into maturity or amount to any real experience.
Thanks for setting me straight. For a minute there I forgot how great The Big Cereal is and... well... just lost my head. Sorry.
By the way - it's been a while since I mentioned it - but Kevin has beautiful slasher/leaper athleticism and I think everyone who is in the least reasonable will agree that he is a very handsome man!
I retract my previous posts which gave undeserved "credit" to Cisco based on playing for a first class college program under a first class coach.
I must agree - Cisco's college experience means nothing. It is clearly a misguided notion that years spent in a first class college program translate into maturity or amount to any real experience.
Thanks for setting me straight. For a minute there I forgot how great The Big Cereal is and... well... just lost my head. Sorry.
By the way - it's been a while since I mentioned it - but Kevin has beautiful slasher/leaper athleticism and I think everyone who is in the least reasonable will agree that he is a very handsome man!
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Dude, who cares about leading a team to the Final Four, he hasn't sat an NBA bench for a year yet, OR missed a playoff roster. Until he does that, he doesn't know much about the NBA game. 
Also, who is this Pitino guy who coached him? What does that have to do with anything?
Also, who is this Pitino guy who coached him? What does that have to do with anything?
We'll begin to see what both guys have when training camp rolls around. Summer league rarely means much for NBA success, and barring anymore moves both guys will be in camp to start playing against real NBA players. Until then this is all just silly bickering based on hometown favorites and sheerest speculation. There is next to nothing to go on. Nothing that matters in the NBA at least.
I should also note that one does not have to fail for the other to succeed. They could both succeed. Or both fail.
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I don't know what prompted this little diatribe. I was trying to have a nice discussion with you. I merely pointed out that the step from college (even a great college program) to the NBA is a big one and that it takes a little adjustment. Obviously, having any reasonable give and take on this issue is probably not going to happen between us given your response, so I will leave you to your exagerations and rather grandoise posturing. (why the need to bag on Kevin to build up Cisco? They are both Kings) I only weighed in on this thread because I think it's a little pre-mature. Obviously, you know better.
I sincerely agree it is pre-mature.
I have not bagged on Kevin Martin in this thread. I'm enthusiastic about Cisco and there are plenty of professional draft pundits with good things to say about his NBA readiness.
I didn't really feel your response to my thread was anything resembling nice, but that's not too important. I respect all the posters and I don't think I automatically have the perfect take. This board is not my blog. Sorry if you don't like my opinions or how I express them but I am really just trying to have an interesting chat about the two kids - that's all.
I have not bagged on Kevin Martin in this thread. I'm enthusiastic about Cisco and there are plenty of professional draft pundits with good things to say about his NBA readiness.
I didn't really feel your response to my thread was anything resembling nice, but that's not too important. I respect all the posters and I don't think I automatically have the perfect take. This board is not my blog. Sorry if you don't like my opinions or how I express them but I am really just trying to have an interesting chat about the two kids - that's all.
You know. aside from having some superstar stud, or defensive wiz at shooting guard, I think having the two youngins duke it out for minutes/a starting role is really the best alternative. They both seem like talented young guys who could make it in the NBA, if we're really lucky they'll both rise to the challenge and we'll be stuck with the impossible task of having to choose which star SG will we ride into the future. For now I guess we'll have to wait for the season to start to see the real competition begin. Unfortunately(or maybe fortunately?) for Special K and Cisco they won't just be competing on game nights, but every pratice as well.
Go Get'em guys!
Go Get'em guys!
Well, he'd better get his NBA-ready butt in gear real quick, since he's been less than stellar in two games against mostly guys that will NOT make the NBA and only three games to turn it around.
I'm confident that Petrie did not pick a stinker in the 1st round, and we do not have just another towel waver for this year's bench mob. It's merely what the wiser folks in this thread have said, there is an adjustment period for all rookies.
I'm confident that Petrie did not pick a stinker in the 1st round, and we do not have just another towel waver for this year's bench mob. It's merely what the wiser folks in this thread have said, there is an adjustment period for all rookies.
Here's how the two players profiled in this thread stack up offensively through 2 of 5 summer league games:
Cisco Garcia
http://www.vegassummerleague.com/players_info.cfm?player=237&season=2&team=15
Kevin Martin
http://www.vegassummerleague.com/players_info.cfm?player=240&season=2&team=15
Cisco Garcia
http://www.vegassummerleague.com/players_info.cfm?player=237&season=2&team=15
Kevin Martin
http://www.vegassummerleague.com/players_info.cfm?player=240&season=2&team=15
You could have made your points without the dripping sarcasm. You talk about a Kevin Martin bandwagon as though it's something sinister...and yet you're singing Cisco's praises from the rafters as though it's some kind of instant and immediate requirement for people to take sides.
Hello? THEY'RE BOTH KINGS!!
Instead of arguing which of them might do better, why not hope against all hope they both justify the faith Geoff Petrie showed them by picking them?
Hello? THEY'RE BOTH KINGS!!
Instead of arguing which of them might do better, why not hope against all hope they both justify the faith Geoff Petrie showed them by picking them?
Good points, Venom - right up to the point where you had to make the garbage comment.
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Now, in a totally different vein and NOT directly in any way at Venom:
I have to wonder what it is that forces a very few people to attack Martin when he's done nothing but work hard, do what was asked of him, have a great attitude, and show progress as he's entering his second year as a King?
We're KINGS fans. We're here because we support the team. Why shouldn't we be enthusiastic and hopeful about BOTH our newest rookie and Martin?
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Now, in a totally different vein and NOT directly in any way at Venom:
I have to wonder what it is that forces a very few people to attack Martin when he's done nothing but work hard, do what was asked of him, have a great attitude, and show progress as he's entering his second year as a King?
We're KINGS fans. We're here because we support the team. Why shouldn't we be enthusiastic and hopeful about BOTH our newest rookie and Martin?
I like Cisco's show of defense (stat wise) in game 2: 1 blocked shot, 3 steals and 7 boards (boards were more than double the team high, and tied game high) in 32 minutes, plus a game high 4 assists! Those are just stats, but they're DEFENSIVE stats, and the assist high speaks to "team" play, yay!
I am excited about seeing these two duke it out for a spot. Finally some competition for a starting position, how long has it been since THAT'S happened? And with Mo Evans taking a peak at the possible competition for a starting role, he may be getting pumped and could be we get to triple our pleasure if he re-signs. It will be good for the rest of the team also, all this inter-competition.
I like the new look Cisco brings, and Kevin seems primed to compete this year. We couldn't ask for more at the 2, I don't think.
Now all we need is....oh, sorry. This is about Kevin and Cisco, LOL.
I am excited about seeing these two duke it out for a spot. Finally some competition for a starting position, how long has it been since THAT'S happened? And with Mo Evans taking a peak at the possible competition for a starting role, he may be getting pumped and could be we get to triple our pleasure if he re-signs. It will be good for the rest of the team also, all this inter-competition.
I like the new look Cisco brings, and Kevin seems primed to compete this year. We couldn't ask for more at the 2, I don't think.
Now all we need is....oh, sorry. This is about Kevin and Cisco, LOL.
Having competition for starting spot is generally not a good sign -- it means you don;t have anyone good enough or established enough to just seize the position. Its certainly an indication of how far we have fallen. But if you are going young, its my preferred modus operandi -- I don't trust either kid to necessarily make it as an NBA starter. But now you double them up, and your odds get much better than one or the other will emerge and be somebody. You can't do it in a year when you're trying to win a title, but if that pressure is off, and it most certainly is for us as we're currently constructed, you cna at least take the time to explore and see what you have.
My thing is that if you are already doing that at one position, already letting two late first round picks fight it our for minutes, then you are tacitly admitting that you aren't really serious about a title run this year. Fine -- sometimes you need to take a step back to take two steps forward (althoguh sometimes it just turns out to be a step back). But if you're making that commitment, then now is the time to make it at other positions as well. PF obviously, but maybe even some of those occupied by our putative "core". In 5 years our "core" will be 34, 33, 32 (Brad/Peja/Mike) and pretty much beyond the age where they would have chance to contend. If we are going to add an infusion of youth in an attempt to find a special player to get us back to the top, it has to start NOW if that kid or kids is going to be ready in time to do anything but wheel the "core" into the NBA retirement home.
My thing is that if you are already doing that at one position, already letting two late first round picks fight it our for minutes, then you are tacitly admitting that you aren't really serious about a title run this year. Fine -- sometimes you need to take a step back to take two steps forward (althoguh sometimes it just turns out to be a step back). But if you're making that commitment, then now is the time to make it at other positions as well. PF obviously, but maybe even some of those occupied by our putative "core". In 5 years our "core" will be 34, 33, 32 (Brad/Peja/Mike) and pretty much beyond the age where they would have chance to contend. If we are going to add an infusion of youth in an attempt to find a special player to get us back to the top, it has to start NOW if that kid or kids is going to be ready in time to do anything but wheel the "core" into the NBA retirement home.
I agree with you, if we are to win a championship then one or more of the core players are gonna need to be traded, but without proper backups to step in in case trades of cores are made for a position other than their own, we are sunk. So, trade the core 3 for another 3, and so on, but the 2 is covered. Can't afford to get a 2 for one of our cores, and it could be we couldn't get anything decent at the 2 for, say Williams. Without Songaila signed we only have adequate BACKUP at the 4, so can't use Skinner or Thomas for a 2. So with the 2 shored up Petrie can concentrate on the 4 with trades and MLE (can you package trade(s) and the MLE together for a player?). But, I'm inclined to believe that the core is NOT going to be together when season starts, just a hunch. I hope I'm right. Because without a major trade we are not going to vie for a championship, imo. So, if one or more of the core is not traded, then developing the young guys is our only hope for a future when contracts expire, is my idea too.
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I have to think this is coming. The market has been set for Peja, w/ the Redd signing, and he's not worth it. So, trade him for a young big, and ideally a young 3. Miller is a nice piece for teams on the cusp of contending, or looking to make a further run in the playoffs. Keep Bibby to run the show, and see what happens. Ideally, do like the Suns and only spend 1 year out of real contention.
That was pretty much my point. For the KINGS to be succdesful, I want them BOTH to succeed.
I wish they were televising these games. I'm not worried about Cisco's offense, that will come. I WAS concerned about his defense. Not so much his help defense, because I think he is good there. His man defense is supposed to be his weak spot, so I wanted to see for myself what it looked like at this level, at least.
I wish they were televising these games. I'm not worried about Cisco's offense, that will come. I WAS concerned about his defense. Not so much his help defense, because I think he is good there. His man defense is supposed to be his weak spot, so I wanted to see for myself what it looked like at this level, at least.
First off, I obviously want both players to succeed.
Secondly, I didn't take the garbage out with anything I said. No, I have not seen the games and rather rely on the stats PLUS the eyes of journalists to pass along to me what they see. For example, here's one from last game...
Kevin Martin- By far the best player on the floor here, for his second game straight so far. Martin was not only the most explosive player here, he was also the most active. He was leaping all over the place, rebounding in traffic, elevating for beautiful floaters, and playing outstanding defense on Antoine Wright and others. He seemed to be the only player on Sacramento’s roster who was really willing to take the ball and make something happen for his team. He had no problem taking the ball strong to hoop and taking contact or getting dirty in the paint on the other end despite his skinny frame. Martin was just too quick and fluid for most people to keep up with, but he didn’t force the issue too much regardless and had no problem making the extra pass. If he can show the ability to consistently hit the outside shot here in Summer League, you may be looking at Sacramento’s starting two guard next season.
Francisco Garcia – For the second straight game, Garcia looks pretty off and nowhere close to the player he was in college. His shot wasn’t falling for him, he had trouble making the right decisions offensively and just looked completely out of tune. In the 2nd half he came back a little stronger on the defensive end but was absolutely hell bent on scoring on a few consecutive possessions down the floor, resulting in being rejected embarrassingly by Derrick Zimmerman on a mid-range jumper. Garcia finished 1-8 from the field and will surely want to forget the beginning of his summer league career.
Another poster here made a strong point about Garcia's superior NBA readiness. Others commented that he probably needs an adjustment period. My post was to concur with those that believe that the kid needs time to figure out how to play with players one step above what he saw in college, and then, when the REAL NBA starts, two steps above. Cisco will be fine.
Secondly, I didn't take the garbage out with anything I said. No, I have not seen the games and rather rely on the stats PLUS the eyes of journalists to pass along to me what they see. For example, here's one from last game...
Kevin Martin- By far the best player on the floor here, for his second game straight so far. Martin was not only the most explosive player here, he was also the most active. He was leaping all over the place, rebounding in traffic, elevating for beautiful floaters, and playing outstanding defense on Antoine Wright and others. He seemed to be the only player on Sacramento’s roster who was really willing to take the ball and make something happen for his team. He had no problem taking the ball strong to hoop and taking contact or getting dirty in the paint on the other end despite his skinny frame. Martin was just too quick and fluid for most people to keep up with, but he didn’t force the issue too much regardless and had no problem making the extra pass. If he can show the ability to consistently hit the outside shot here in Summer League, you may be looking at Sacramento’s starting two guard next season.
Francisco Garcia – For the second straight game, Garcia looks pretty off and nowhere close to the player he was in college. His shot wasn’t falling for him, he had trouble making the right decisions offensively and just looked completely out of tune. In the 2nd half he came back a little stronger on the defensive end but was absolutely hell bent on scoring on a few consecutive possessions down the floor, resulting in being rejected embarrassingly by Derrick Zimmerman on a mid-range jumper. Garcia finished 1-8 from the field and will surely want to forget the beginning of his summer league career.
Another poster here made a strong point about Garcia's superior NBA readiness. Others commented that he probably needs an adjustment period. My post was to concur with those that believe that the kid needs time to figure out how to play with players one step above what he saw in college, and then, when the REAL NBA starts, two steps above. Cisco will be fine.
I have to agree with Bricklayer's thought regarding these two young players duking it out. Although it makes for good discussion, it certainly doesn't send a wave of confidence with respect to a bonafide starting back court.
The fact is, either one of these two guys will end up being a backup to whomever ends up starting at the 2, or to back up Peja in match up spots. They are virtually fighting to see who comes off the bench first (or right after Bobby Jackson).
I'm with the majority here: I want these guys to both succeed.
But the harsh reality is that the Kings need a better, more solid, productive veteran player to start at the shooting guard spot.
And it isn't Mo Evans...
The fact is, either one of these two guys will end up being a backup to whomever ends up starting at the 2, or to back up Peja in match up spots. They are virtually fighting to see who comes off the bench first (or right after Bobby Jackson).
I'm with the majority here: I want these guys to both succeed.
But the harsh reality is that the Kings need a better, more solid, productive veteran player to start at the shooting guard spot.
And it isn't Mo Evans...