Keon Ellis

[pdxKingsFan]

My 2 cents which have been shared before, I think a savvier GM could have gotten an additional FRP included in the deal instead of the second or whatever Monte got back from Indy. Haliburton would never have ascended if he stayed on the Kings and they hadn't made a major move. Domas was the right move to kickstart the org, along with Keegan (which was lotto luck we may not have had without the trade). Had there been any way to move Fox instead of Hali, that would have been optimal but I think this only works in a video game and the team probably wins a few extra games and misses out on Keegan.

 

[BuddyBuckets]

Us being "forced" to take LaVine feels like a bit of a stretch. Especially with Viveks past history with LaVine, that smells like him all the way so we can "stay competitive"

This is absolute copium trash being put out to run cover for Vivek. In what world does this series of events even make sense?
Klutch forces Fox out from Sac, and to his desired destination. We agree to send him to said destination. After all that, Klutch says not good enough, now you must pay for the luxury of LaVine?
A complete joke, and I cannot believe anyone in their right mind is falling for that. Ya lets just f you out of your best player and stick you with an awful contract. But don't worry we will take care of you in the future. lol stop

 

[SacTownKid]

Why is everyone trying to force Carter to play point when he really isn't one? He's a combo guard, at best. Let's quit trying to force square pegs in round holes, shall we? Put players in a position to succeed, not fail.

That's the thing though? What IS a PG? Plenty of defense/score first guards were technically a teams PG. Pat Bev, Derek Fisher, and so on. By the end of summer league Carter ended up the leading assist guy. The potential is there still. If they are trying to turn him into the next Rondo yeah, that's stupid, no team has a Rondo right now. It's lead on ball scoring stars and then defense around them. Not PG's.

 

[ESP47]

That's the thing though? What IS a PG? Plenty of defense/score first guards were technically a teams PG. Pat Bev, Derek Fisher, and so on. By the end of summer league Carter ended up the leading assist guy. The potential is there still. If they are trying to turn him into the next Rondo yeah, that's stupid, no team has a Rondo right now. It's lead on ball scoring stars and then defense around them. Not PG's.

It's really just the ability to keep the offense going. I think of it as a guy who can be the engine on offense. Carter stalls out when he's asked to be the engine. He has moments where he really shines when he's just out there doing secondary work. He has the capabilities to make solid reads but he really dribbles the air out of the ball and just flat out doesn't know what to do a lot of the time when he's the primary ball handler. Kicking the ball to Cardwell at the 3pt line and trotting away is something a player that doesn't quite know what he's doing is going to do. A real playmaker might kick the ball to Cardwell to get out of a bad position and then go right back to the ball and either reset or run a pick right there.

He doesn't need to be a 7+ assist guy or even a 5+ assist guy on this team. I'd just like to see him keep things rolling smoothly out there instead of playing hot potato at the end of the shot clock like he was doing with Mason Jones early on. I don't think it's do or die for his career but it would certainly help his ability to stick around in Sacramento if he could develop the skills to fill that need so he doesn't wind up getting traded for players that better "fit" with our old players that won't be around for a future run anyway.

 

[The_Jamal]

My 2 cents which have been shared before, I think a savvier GM could have gotten an additional FRP included in the deal instead of the second or whatever Monte got back from Indy. Haliburton would never have ascended if he stayed on the Kings and they hadn't made a major move. Domas was the right move to kickstart the org, along with Keegan (which was lotto luck we may not have had without the trade). Had there been any way to move Fox instead of Hali, that would have been optimal but I think this only works in a video game and the team probably wins a few extra games and misses out on Keegan.

Explain how a "savier" GM would have gotten more out of Hali-Domas swap.

Padrino is 100% correct in his evaluation. They've essentially had the same exact impact on winning, almost to a T, which is pretty funny. But the Kings built their team around Fox, who snaked them and the organization has failed to ascend since that time through typical Kings incompetence. While competing in the far superior conference. While Indy put stability and a perfect team system to fully maximize what Hali is elite at in the soft conference

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Explain how a "savier" GM would have gotten more out of Hali-Domas swap.

Padrino is 100% correct in his evaluation. They've essentially had the same exact impact on winning, almost to a T, which is pretty funny. But the Kings built their team around Fox, who snaked them and the organization has failed to ascend since that time through typical Kings incompetence. While competing in the far superior conference. While Indy put stability and a perfect team system to fully maximize what Hali is elite at in the soft conference

At the time of the trade - before the Kings enjoyed the 22-23 run - most pundits had us getting crushed by this deal. Many GMs were reported to have been shocked that Haliburton was on the table and flustered that they did not get a chance to make an offer.

Monte got his man but I think he left value on the table in trading a younger, cost-controlled player.

It just is what it is, I'm not very critical of the trade and love Domas. But I think in hindsight we could and should have gotten their pick that year too.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

This is where its near impossible to overcome a bad owner. Clearly, vivek was the one who demanded we take LaVine back in a deal. Otherwise, why would Monte have gotten fired?

Thinking back, its kind of insane Vivek signed off on letting Fox get traded to only fire that GM 2 months later. Really just shows that Monte likely hasn't been calling the shots for quite awhile

Ya no way Monte wanted Lavine and that contract

Errrr, I preferred Nique as a prospect over Carter Bryant anyways.

Why not both… buy if we’re picking at 12 you take the Pelicans deal and run before Dumars is drug tested

I can't answer this question but if you look around the league it's pretty clear that players and their agents basically have free reign to demand to play wherever the hell they want now. Even the first round of the draft looked heavily manipulated this year. Paul is the most powerful agent in basketball and if he blacklists your team to his clients you're cooked.

My only thoughts are this is some kind of response to the new CBA but this level of player agency was already beginning before it was negotiated.

This is true but that’s usually when a player doesn’t want to go to a team how could an agent say you’re getting this guy deal with it. Lavine was on the block for years and was never traded I’m sure Klutch didn’t zero in on Sacramento like that Denver’s was close to trading for him in the off season and the deadline and passed both times.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

This is true but that’s usually when a player doesn’t want to go to a team how could an agent say you’re getting this guy deal with it. Lavine was on the block for years and was never traded I’m sure Klutch didn’t zero in on Sacramento like that Denver’s was close to trading for him in the off season and the deadline and passed both times.

San Antonio wasn't going to budge and only offered bad contracts. Meanwhile Fox was destroying morale and chemistry in our locker room after what had been an impressive run after Brown's firing.

I think that today - Summer 2025 - knowing we were bounced embarrasingly in the playoffs and the Spurs wound up with the #2 overall (and we were very near picking first, if you believe the lotto isn't rigged) you probably just tell Fox to F himself and ban him from the locker room and go into the offseason, but if you do that things might have shaken out very differently, Spurs could have wound up picking later, Fox could still be demanding to go there, etc.

Klutch had another client that badly wanted out of Chicago and his best friend (apparently, I don't think we knew this) had just moved here.

again I ask why the heck would Peja make it up, he has nothing to gain from it.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

This is absolute copium trash being put out to run cover for Vivek. In what world does this series of events even make sense?
Klutch forces Fox out from Sac, and to his desired destination. We agree to send him to said destination. After all that, Klutch says not good enough, now you must pay for the luxury of LaVine?
A complete joke, and I cannot believe anyone in their right mind is falling for that. Ya lets just f you out of your best player and stick you with an awful contract. But don't worry we will take care of you in the future. lol stop

And why is Lavine trade destination Sacramento and not denver or anywhere else

At the time of the trade - before the Kings enjoyed the 22-23 run - most pundits had us getting crushed by this deal. Many GMs were reported to have been shocked that Haliburton was on the table and flustered that they did not get a chance to make an offer.

Monte got his man but I think he left value on the table in trading a younger, cost-controlled player.

It just is what it is, I'm not very critical of the trade and love Domas. But I think in hindsight we could and should have gotten their pick that year too.

Same as the demar deal we got laughed at and the sac media and people in here swore it was the right move as usual

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Same as the demar deal we got laughed at and the sac media and people in here swore it was the right move as usual

The Fox/LaVine deal was universally panned I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Padrino]

Explain how a "savier" GM would have gotten more out of Hali-Domas swap.

Padrino is 100% correct in his evaluation. They've essentially had the same exact impact on winning, almost to a T, which is pretty funny. But the Kings built their team around Fox, who snaked them and the organization has failed to ascend since that time through typical Kings incompetence. While competing in the far superior conference. While Indy put stability and a perfect team system to fully maximize what Hali is elite at in the soft conference

I think what I find the most hilarious is that nobody here at KF.com is about to go to bat for this franchise's stability. It's, like, the one area where we have achieved near total consensus as a forum. We are top-to-bottom critical of Vivek's stewardship since he bought the team. But somehow gross franchise mismanagement shouldn't have any bearing whatsoever on how we evaluate Domantas Sabonis' value to this franchise vs. Tyrese Haliburton's value to the Pacers when their impact on winning is a wash. I say it again and again and again and I feel like I'm just shouting into a void, but... context matters.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

The Fox/LaVine deal was universally panned I have no idea what you are talking about.

Not by the Sac media at first

 

[sactowndog]

My 2 cents which have been shared before, I think a savvier GM could have gotten an additional FRP included in the deal instead of the second or whatever Monte got back from Indy. Haliburton would never have ascended if he stayed on the Kings and they hadn't made a major move. Domas was the right move to kickstart the org, along with Keegan (which was lotto luck we may not have had without the trade). Had there been any way to move Fox instead of Hali, that would have been optimal but I think this only works in a video game and the team probably wins a few extra games and misses out on Keegan.

For the record my acquaintance who was on an NBA front office felt it was a poor trade at the time. He said it was clear Haliburton was going to be very special and he felt Domas was not a winning player.

Let’s just say I have heard more than a few told you so’s.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I think what I find the most hilarious is that nobody here at KF.com is about to go to bat for this franchise's stability. It's, like, the one area where we have achieved near total consensus as a forum. We are top-to-bottom critical of Vivek's stewardship since he bought the team. But somehow gross franchise mismanagement shouldn't have any bearing whatsoever on how we evaluate Domantas Sabonis' value to this franchise vs. Tyrese Haliburton's value to the Pacers when their impact on winning is a wash. I say it again and again and again and I feel like I'm just shouting into a void, but... context matters.

Even if you can statistically prove their impact on winning is a wash their cost and age favors Indiana (at least until Hali's recent injury).

That's why I think we could have gotten a first round pick out of it.

Apparently Siakam also wanted to play with Haliburton and was a large part of the reason he said he would re-sign with Indy if they traded for him whereas he told the Kings he would test free agency.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Not by the Sac media at first

Links please.

 

[SacTownKid]

It's really just the ability to keep the offense going. I think of it as a guy who can be the engine on offense. Carter stalls out when he's asked to be the engine. He has moments where he really shines when he's just out there doing secondary work. He has the capabilities to make solid reads but he really dribbles the air out of the ball and just flat out doesn't know what to do a lot of the time when he's the primary ball handler. Kicking the ball to Cardwell at the 3pt line and trotting away is something a player that doesn't quite know what he's doing is going to do. A real playmaker might kick the ball to Cardwell to get out of a bad position and then go right back to the ball and either reset or run a pick right there.

He doesn't need to be a 7+ assist guy or even a 5+ assist guy on this team. I'd just like to see him keep things rolling smoothly out there instead of playing hot potato at the end of the shot clock like he was doing with Mason Jones early on. I don't think it's do or die for his career but it would certainly help his ability to stick around in Sacramento if he could develop the skills to fill that need so he doesn't wind up getting traded for players that better "fit" with our old players that won't be around for a future run anyway.

Yeah, so did Fox. Draw and kick is the name of the game and the early returns are he can pull that off and improved as every game went on in summer league. It's there, the question now is refinement. Depending on how that goes determines what he is or how he'll operate on the offensive side. Right now he's at worst a PG a team can play strictly because he has lockdown potential. With someone like Domas at C it sounds like the most obvious thing possible. The team on paper needs a star and chemistry, not playmaking.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

For the record my acquaintance who was on an NBA front office felt it was a poor trade at the time. He said it was clear Haliburton was going to be very special and he felt Domas was not a winning player.

Let’s just say I have heard more than a few told you so’s.

I don't think we'd have had a winning season without a major move, I just think if Haliburton was on the table he should have at least gotten 2-3 bids instead of secretly closing the deal with Indy.

It's the same reason the Luka deal to LA was such a joke, there were other teams that would have done 10x the offer Dallas got.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Yeah, so did Fox. Draw and kick is the name of the game and the early returns are he can pull that off and improved as every game went on in summer league. It's there, the question now is refinement. Depending on how that goes determines what he is or how he'll operate on the offensive side. Right now he's at worst a PG a team can play strictly because he has lockdown potential. With someone like Domas at C it sounds like the most obvious thing possible. The team on paper needs a star and chemistry, not playmaking.

I think Carter can work at the "1" if his back court mate and one of the forwards can also handle. It would be a point-runner by committee situation and we've seen that work, although it's usually because the primary ball handler is an All-Star.

Thinking back to how De'Aaron didn't even get to bring the ball up court on LeBron's team.

 

[ESP47]

Yeah, so did Fox. Draw and kick is the name of the game and the early returns are he can pull that off and improved as every game went on in summer league. It's there, the question now is refinement. Depending on how that goes determines what he is or how he'll operate on the offensive side. Right now he's at worst a PG a team can play strictly because he has lockdown potential. With someone like Domas at C it sounds like the most obvious thing possible. The team on paper needs a star and chemistry, not playmaking.

Yeah but Fox has the scoring dynamic that Carter doesn't have at the moment. That really helps keep the offense moving. If Fox was a 14ppg player with the same playmaking capabilities, he would basically be Schroder.

I thought Domas at C would allow us to roll without a good primary playmaker but it didn't look like it to me after the Fox trade.

I agree that we need a star but most stars are normally playmakers as well. Most of the top scorers in the league are also 6+ assist guys.

I'm not advocating that we shoe horn Carter into a primary ball handling roll. I guess I'm just saying that it's a legit problem with the core we currently have and the guy we got in free agency to alleviate that is not good enough to make a difference.

 

[serbiangoat]

Yeah but Fox has the scoring dynamic that Carter doesn't have at the moment. That really helps keep the offense moving. If Fox was a 14ppg player with the same playmaking capabilities, he would basically be Schroder.

I thought Domas at C would allow us to roll without a good primary playmaker but it didn't look like it to me after the Fox trade.

I agree that we need a star but most stars are normally playmakers as well. Most of the top scorers in the league are also 6+ assist guys.

I'm not advocating that we shoe horn Carter into a primary ball handling roll. I guess I'm just saying that it's a legit problem with the core we currently have and the guy we got in free agency to alleviate that is not good enough to make a difference.

As good as a playmaker Sabonis is you need a guy that can breakdown the defense at will of the dribble it's the main reason teams don't win aside from injury luck, even Jokic as good as he is needs a guy who can breakdown the defense of the dribble (Murray did it in a couple playoff runs but could not do it vs Twolves/OkC ), having a elite play maker from the bigman/post is nearly pointless (Jokic rare exception) unless you have elite or near elite wing who can its why these guys tend to be top 5 picks

 

[sactowndog]

I don't think we'd have had a winning season without a major move, I just think if Haliburton was on the table he should have at least gotten 2-3 bids instead of secretly closing the deal with Indy.

It's the same reason the Luka deal to LA was such a joke, there were other teams that would have done 10x the offer Dallas got.

That was pretty much the point of my contact. He said no one knew the Kings were open to trading Haliburton and the Kings could have received a much better offer. Hard to say if that was true or not but I take the word of someone in the business over us message board posters

 

[sactowndog]

I think what I find the most hilarious is that nobody here at KF.com is about to go to bat for this franchise's stability. It's, like, the one area where we have achieved near total consensus as a forum. We are top-to-bottom critical of Vivek's stewardship since he bought the team. But somehow gross franchise mismanagement shouldn't have any bearing whatsoever on how we evaluate Domantas Sabonis' value to this franchise vs. Tyrese Haliburton's value to the Pacers when their impact on winning is a wash. I say it again and again and again and I feel like I'm just shouting into a void, but... context matters.

Yes context matters but I think many would argue regardless of context Hali is a more impactful player.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

That was pretty much the point of my contact. He said no one knew the Kings were open to trading Haliburton and the Kings could have received a much better offer. Hard to say if that was true or not but I take the word of someone in the business over us message board posters

No I believe that. Obviously you don't want it leaking and have relations turn sour like they did with say Huerter but I think we would have got multiple offers immediately for Hali and could have just used it to demand for from Indy.

 

[SacTownKid]

Yeah but Fox has the scoring dynamic that Carter doesn't have at the moment. That really helps keep the offense moving. If Fox was a 14ppg player with the same playmaking capabilities, he would basically be Schroder.

I thought Domas at C would allow us to roll without a good primary playmaker but it didn't look like it to me after the Fox trade.

I agree that we need a star but most stars are normally playmakers as well. Most of the top scorers in the league are also 6+ assist guys.

I'm not advocating that we shoe horn Carter into a primary ball handling roll. I guess I'm just saying that it's a legit problem with the core we currently have and the guy we got in free agency to alleviate that is not good enough to make a difference.

I'm just saying the archetype of "PG" varies greatly and yes, some do pound the rock and obviously Fox did it a LOT more. Fox doesn't have nearly the same defensive tools either. Like I brought up, many players have played PG for a variety of different reasons and defense these days is seemingly a big one.