Why is everyone trying to force Carter to play point when he really isn't one? He's a combo guard, at best. Let's quit trying to force square pegs in round holes, shall we? Put players in a position to succeed, not fail.
Keon Ellis
- Thread starter Tetsujin
- Start date
Because the unspoken part here is most people want this team to lose. They hate anyone that is going to play average and help us win 2-3 more games because they are convinced that we need to finish with under 20 wins because next year's draft class is magical (so they say). Even though the #1 pick this year went to the team that beat us in our play-in game.
sactowndog
Hall of Famer
No because is a very undersized 2 guard in an era of length. Hell even is father is working to make him a point guard because being able to play point successfully increases his value. He has zero chance of guarding the longer 2 guards in this league. So if you play him at 2 you need a longer point who can guard 2 guards and they are hard to find.
He is even smaller than Dort but Dort excels because he plays exceptional defense and knocks down the 3 at a high rate. Carter shot is pretty inconsistent with a .591 FT% and a .295 3 pt rate. Granted it’s on small volume but it’s not good. Plus the Kings already have Keon who is a long 3 and D player.
Last edited:
Ok, but the team needs a point guard if they want other players to develop in a system even if they are 2-3 years away. People complain about poor development, lack of continuity, etc. They're trying to establish that. But in doing so, they might win some games and therefore "ruin" their draft position. I will argue that outside of a few talents most players drafted in the lottery succeed or fail based on external factors and their own emotional intelligence. Having a cohesive system and talent that can help them execute in game situations where winning is an objective is the best way to develop talent. Arguably this is why we are having success with out 2-way talents who have competed for G-League titles the last 3 seasons.
It's fine to complain that Perry doesn't seem to rate Carter highly or that maybe Carter was the wrong pick given team needs last year. Both valid.
kingsfan101
Starter
To be fair, when I wrote that trading the vets would turn this into Keegan's team, it implicitly meant that. We can quibble about this. We had seasons where Kevin Martin and Tyreke Evans were our best players. No disrespect to these guys (particularly Martin, who rose from a late FRP, and a poor rookie season to become a respected name in the league), but they were not stars. Keegan is better than both of them; plays both ends of the floor, plays hard, and I think is generally respected and liked.
I do believe that Keegan can be a star. He's not a flashy scorer. Nor does he have the kind of personality that stars typically display. If he ever does become a star, it will more in the mold of a Tim Duncan. Not saying he will achieve Duncan's level (almost impossible to do), but he will need to lead a team to significant playoff success. If this ever becomes his team, a lot will need to go right for that to happen.
Joshyjosh31
Starter
We went another offseason not getting a 6’8 - 6’9 wing that could help Keegan out and half this board criticizes Sactown for always bringing it up
If Sabonis is as good as y’all say then a combo guard would be fine. Either way I’d take my chances developing Carter at PG over paying Schroeder not like that move is gonna make a difference.
What players are we developing with Derozan and Lavine taking up all the shots and Carter and Ellis getting 20mpg?
So 2-3 wins is more important than developing Carter your lottery pick while positioning yourself to get a better draft pick in an insane draft. You really support chasing the 10th seed to get smacked by GSW or Dallas again. Imagine San Antonio’s said aye maybe we can jump 10 spots for Wemby let’s chase that play in instead lol
kingsfan101
Starter
Yes. I have consistently believed (and often argued here), that good organizations will develop players, while poor ones will waste them. We can see our own draft history vs the golden years and the proceeding ones. Will late picks, we picked up gems like Hedo, Gerald Wallace, Kevin Martin, etc. Since then, our only successes in a long time had been only DMC and IT.
These were the draft ranks for the starting 5 of the two finalists
Indiana
Siakam: 27
Nesmith: 14
Turner: 11
Nembhard: 31
Hali: 12
OKC
Chet: 2
Williams: 12
Hartenstein: 43
SGA: 11
Dort: Undrafted
So only one player drafted in top 10, 2 second rounders, and 1 undrafted player. The MVP was picked 11th, and had Indiana won, a 12th pick would have won MVP.
This is not to suggest that getting a high pick is bad. However, building a team is much more than draft. So, in general, I have never been a fan of the "process."
That said, our current situation is quite bad. We are playing vets who have no future with us and are unlikely to lead us to the playoffs. We have some young talent, but most of it plays the same position, and we can't find minutes for them due to the vets clogging both the cap space and playing time. A new GM, a relatively rookie coach, and an impatient owner.
There are no easy solutions. You just can't trade away salaries like DDR to open up playing time for young guys. You have to take something back. Unless some contender has an expiring contract lying around that they are willing to give up, you might be forced to take back more middling guys, which might be a worse situation.
Such moves will also likely alienate the remaining vets. It would be only reasonable for players like Domas or Monk to want a trade if the organization wants to rebuild. It would actually be good for both sides. So, this is one situation, where I have come around to accepting the "process" if our GM sells it.
Name this 6'8" - 6'9" wing and describe what we could have done to acquire him.
Joshyjosh31
Starter
Wasn’t that many available just pointing out it’s hilarious seeing people come at Sactown for wanting size and length
Cam Whitimore is the guy we should’ve been all over doesn’t Perry allegedly have a lot front office connections he should’ve known he was available. Would’ve chased him over Kuminga knowing that situation in GSW and knowing Cam was most likely being traded.
Jason Collins went for a second and Powell surely we could’ve beat that offer with the “great” Derozan who everyone was saying had value and Miami would want
NewArena
All-Star
This. It's painfully obvious lol tanking will never make sense, and certainly not in the year 2025 and beyond when a lot of this lottery crap is rigged anyhow
Joshyjosh31
Starter
If we tanked last year and got the 12th pick without moving up we could draft Carter-Bryant or better yet we get our minds blown by getting the pelicans offer and an unprotected first that should be top 8. Too bad getting smacked by Dallas was a better option I guess ownership made money off that game
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Cam Whitmore’s agent colluded hard to get him to his hometown team so even if we weee “all over” it, that wouldn’t have happened.
Nobody comes at him for wanting a wing. Everyone knows how valuable wings are.
He gets flack because he refuses to acknowledge basketball talent and only cares about size and length. But oh. He then changes his story with Devin Carter because he's got an incredible wingspan and athleticism, but "bad standing reach"
This is where its near impossible to overcome a bad owner. Clearly, vivek was the one who demanded we take LaVine back in a deal. Otherwise, why would Monte have gotten fired?
Thinking back, its kind of insane Vivek signed off on letting Fox get traded to only fire that GM 2 months later. Really just shows that Monte likely hasn't been calling the shots for quite awhile
sactowndog
Hall of Famer
For the record I did not criticize Perry because I think his hands are tied this year based on moves by the previous GM.
One of the reasons I hated stacking small guards is it is almost impossible to trade small for big. It would be a tad disingenuous to blame Perry for something I said can’t be done.
Padrino
All-Star
Yet Monte McNair accomplished precisely that when he traded Tyrese Haliburton for Domantas Sabonis. If he managed "the impossible" with that trade, how does it affect your assessment of him as a GM? I'm guessing it doesn't impact your assessment at all, of course, but I do sometimes enjoy the cognitive dissonance required for you to turn every conversation into one about how Monte McNair was the worst GM the Kings have ever had.
Peja claims that we were forced to take LaVine by Rich Paul/Klutch.
The decision to leave was reported as mutual and I think this might be one of those rare cases it was true. If Vivek is as hands on as the worst hater thinks he is that would make it more likely Monte would want out, but that would also mean that Vivek would probably be less likely to fire his puppet and more likely to want to fire the scouting team when it seems like there's good evidence only Monte/Wes are out.
I really think all of this boils down to Brown's early extension demand, how it was handled, and the subsequent drop in performance/decision to fire him plus Fox's situation. If it were me I'd probably have let him have one more year but I think the separation was inevitable based on the team's trajectory.
Srzly
G-League
Forgive my ignorance on the politics of agents and the NBA but why did we have to cave on LaVine and Fox?
It seems like this is where it all spiraled out of control. It was clear to most that we have a starter-level player in Keon that needs more minutes but instead we trade for a player that keeps him on the bench and now don’t have a big or a PG.
What happens if we tell Klutch to kick rocks and we won’t trade Fox unless it’s a far trade and if they don’t like it Fox can wait another year before going to SAS?
I can't answer this question but if you look around the league it's pretty clear that players and their agents basically have free reign to demand to play wherever the hell they want now. Even the first round of the draft looked heavily manipulated this year. Paul is the most powerful agent in basketball and if he blacklists your team to his clients you're cooked.
My only thoughts are this is some kind of response to the new CBA but this level of player agency was already beginning before it was negotiated.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
It also works both ways because I’m fairly confident Keegan and Keon are both going to end up with extensions from the Kings precisely because Perry has made negotiating with their agent a priority.
Agreed. It's annoying how the doomers in the media trying to drive engagement downplay/outright ignore this.
Even Styles made a big point of it implying that we're going to lose Keon because we overpaid Schröder instead of possibly that being part of the plan to keep him.
Yeah, I think the players and their agencies pretty much have NBA orgs by the coconuts at this point. For all the posturing that PHX wouldn't settle on KD... guess where he ended up? Exactly where he wanted to go on a fairly low-end deal. And like you said, you can pee off the powerful agent, but then you lose access to those clients forever. And my guess is it probably hurts your case with other agencies too "well, this org doesn't listen to what the player wants, so we'll go elsewhere"
Maluach clearly dictating him going to PHX
Sounds like Raynaud dictated his way to Sac.
More reports of the 2nd round being fully predetermined.
Us being "forced" to take LaVine feels like a bit of a stretch. Especially with Viveks past history with LaVine, that smells like him all the way so we can "stay competitive"
We tried to sign him to a contract when he was a RFA. That's it. That's the history.
What am I missing, as far as I'm aware we never pursued him again.
And why would Peja make it up?
We’re going to just disagree on this.
kingsfan101
Starter
I think that's largely true (no evidence, just a "feeling" you get seeing star players get pretty much what they want). That said, teams have only themselves to blame. If they unite, agents will have to fall in line. Ultimately, it's the owners who bring the money, and the agents represent a lot of non-star players. Teams will happily stab each other in the back, and poach star players from other teams for minimal returns if they can. Good short term strategy for them. However, that's what gives power to the players and agents.
Doubt will ever happen though. While owners themselves are unlikely to let go of a chance to get a star player, even if they agree to avoid doing so as a long term strategy, they will be under pressure from their own GMs, coaches, and current star players to make the deal. They have every reason to go for short term gains.
Owners are generally happy because they ended the arms race. Once the last batch of contracts end I doubt we will see nearly as many teams go into the luxury tax unless they do as well as OKC did. But it should be noted that Clay Bennett (who I routinely cite as one of the worst owners in the league) is viewing this as his opportunity to cash out on the Thunder and let someone else take the hit that the likes of Boston's new ownership group is doing.
I've also said that one of Vivek's worst traits re: team competitiveness is viewing things as a family business. And we're seeing a lot of new ownership be extremely cut throat with player movement as well, obviously the Luka deal sticks out. Boston is selling everyone - thankfully they have the cover of the injury but it was in motion either way. Vivek actually seems to be more along the lines of the last of a dying breed even though he is kind of a transitional owner between family business style and this new breed of owner that probably idolized Jerry Jones and Mark Cuban as children.
sactowndog
Hall of Famer
Notice I said almost impossible and I will point out a couple facts…..
After two years Haliburton was a known quality and seen as elite. Yes you can trade a Fox or Haliburton level guard. Two, getting a an undersized center who can’t defend the rim was not exactly some stupendous accomplishment. The fact Domas has never made it past the first round speaks volumes.
Padrino
All-Star
Incorrect. He was a rising quantity who was thought to have star potential; established elite talents make All-Star/All-NBA teams, and Tyrese Haliburton earned no such distinction through two seasons.
Also, you sure do love moving goalposts, don't you? It's "almost impossible" to trade small for big... until you start putting conditions around such a scenario. And then all of a sudden it's "not exactly some stupendous accomplishment" when you manage the "almost impossible".
See, you don't get to pick and choose when context matters. It always matters. The fact that Domas has never made it past the first round only speaks volumes if your examination of the NBA landscape is feebly simplistic. I've laid out the impact statistics at KF.com a dozen times before, but Haliburton and Sabonis have a remarkably similar impact on winning. So what's the difference between them, beyond their size? Well, the former plays in a cakewalk conference, and the latter plays in a brutally difficult conference. The former plays on a roster optimized for his skillset, and the latter plays on a roster that is consistently suboptimal for his skillset. The former plays for a franchise that is remarkably stable, and the latter plays for a franchise that cycles through GMs and coaches like they're seasonal fashions. Maybe... just maybe, you don't have as strong of a grasp of this particular issue as you think you do.
BuddyBuckets
G-League
This feels pretty all over the place.
"People complain about poor development, lack of continuity". I mean, I havent heard anyone complain about roster continuity, more so that we sat on our hands during the Sabonis/Fox era too long. As for the lack of development, if the team committed to playing Keon, Carter, Nique, Jones, Maxime, Keegan massive minutes and we won 40 games, not a single soul would be upset. That isn't what will happen. We will force feed LaVine/Schroder/Demar for 35mpg a piece, half the young guys won't be in the rotation, the other half will rarely touch the ball, and we will win 40 games. In the process we will
1. Have a trash draft position
2. Barely miss the playoffs
3. Not properly see what we have in any of the young guys
This old argument that we had to add 30 year old Schroder because he is going to help the young guys develop, we've been fed this lie for 10 years. I'll never understand why people continue to go to bat for Vivek. Everyone knows hes the worst owner in the league and cannot stay out of his own way.
Similar threads
- Sacramento Kings On SI
- Personnel moves
- Sacramento Kings On SI
- Kings News Links
