K-MART is NOT our early season MVP

^^ if it's for a one year rental? i'd rather have anyone on that list other than perhaps allen (think he's old and may wear down over the season) and jackson (possible headcase).

why would you discount these players' experience? leadership? locker room presence? these are the things that make them good players, not just pure basketball talent and instinct alone.
 
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I've been looking at this from the standpoint of "why aren't we getting any better," and the post that I quoted originally opened my eyes to what the real question should be: Why are we continually getting worse? When you have a GM who has shown the ability to build a championship contender from the ground up, you have to wonder why, every year since 2002, we've won fewer and fewer games, to the point where we struggled to win 30 games last year. This year doesn't look any better. Why can't Petrie bring in players that will help the team, that will make us better?

Thanks for the compliment. First I think over the years the ability of Petrie has been overblown, probably to his detriment. I am sure his reputation has made it very difficult to facilitate any trade with other GMs. No GM wants to be see as taken advantage of by their owner. Our last nine trades have not improved our trading partners franchises.
Working backwards:
Skinner->Vitaly+Monia
Peja->Artest
Bobby+Tag->Bonzi
Webber+Bradley+Barnes->Thomas+Skinner+Corliss
Christie->Mobley+Bradley
Keon->Nothing :)
Pollard+Hedo->Miller
2 2nds->Darius
Dickau->1st

We can argue what they did for us, but nobody has gotten better trading with us since the 2001 Barry-Cleaves trade. This nullifies Petries greatest strength as a player trader.

From reading his quotes I think he also has a hard time trading for lesser value in the present for greater potential value in the future. That is why we will continue to hang on to players long past their usefulness, and only trade for a player of the same or equal quality. The shocking thing to me is in 12 seasons the only future first we traded for was Dan Dickau for our own pick back.

Lastly, I think we underestimate how much influence Rick used to have as a talent evaluator and the relationship between them. If you read Reggie's quotes about the draft I think he was pulling for [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Crittenton. Its also worrisome to me that the GM and the new coach were not even on the same page as what kind of players we needed to draft.


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Here is some of those players 3rd year stats:

Kobe
19.9, 5.3, 3.8, 1.4

Ray allen
20, 3.4, 2.7, .6

Joe Johnson
9.8, 3.2, 2.6, .8

Rip hamliton
20, 3.4, 2.7, .6

Kevin Martin
20.2, 4.3, 2.2, 1.2

Stats in a vacuum are exactly that...
 
Michael Redd, Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton and Manu Ginobili are all more shooting guard than small forward, and all are a cut above Kevin Martin.

I think you are wrong about the above players... Matching skills vs. skills they are not a cut above.. Manu, and Rip have been a part of championship teams, but Redd has not been..

Probably the only player I would put above Martin for overall skill at this point is Redd. But that's a debate for another thread.

Way I see it is that Martin is our best player and is the MVP. Beno came into a situation where the team had no point guard. Reason I don't think he is MVP is because it's not like we had a PG, and he came in and stole the starting spot, and put up 20/8 per game... The Kings are a bad team, and they are REAL bad w/o a point guard. Beno did what Bibby would have done. Helped us win a few games here and there.. Does not mean Bibby would have been the MVP.
 
Before the season began we had some threads on where Kevin ranked amongst OGs (think it was related to whetehr the new contract was reasonable or not), and he graded out at about the 9-12 area. The early scoring surge may move him up 1 or 2 spots, but its still largely the same thing for him. Kobe is better, Wade, TMac, Iverson, Pierce is probably a SF now, but Ray Allen has done it far longer and still gets the nod, Vinsanity ditto, and both those guys do more for you. As does Joe Johnson. So that's 7 right there. Then you have Redd, who may be the most like Kevin (one dimesional), but again, has done it longer, carries a bigger burden for the franchise. And then there's Rip, which is a borderline case (I have alway csonsidered Rip, like all the Pistons, quite overrated, but he plays better defense and last year really added the ability to create for others which Kevin only sporadically flashes). So you are talking 8-9 there. I already thought Kevin was above a tweener like Gordon, so Gordon's slow start doesn't change anything, and Richardson's slow start clarifies Kevin as above him for at least until he gets healthy. Manu is a tough call as always -- he is probably a better impact player than Kevin right now. At times he's a better player than just about anybody. But he does it in short minutes and is erratic. Meanwhile Maggette is back, but really a SF, Igoudala is a far better rounded, but again now a SF. The interesting thing will be seeing if any of the young guys behind Kevin, Roy, Durant, Gay etc. eventually pass him up even as he passes some of the aging guys ahead of him.

Anyway, you are talking about the same range for Kevin: high end maybe 8th, but likely 9-12. The thing about him right now is that he is just a scorer. And scoring is pretty and gets you on Sportcenter and eveything, but to borrow some logic terms, I would calling scoring a necessary but not sufficient prerequisite of a great plyer. In other words, all great players score big (well almost all), but not all big scorers are truly great players. What distinguishes the great players who score big from the guys who just score big is their ability to do other things. Create for teammates, rebound, defend, take over in the clutch, lead, run the team etc. On the high end you get a guy like Garnett who can do just about all of those things. On the low end you get guys like Kevin who really only do the one. And thats the difference -- the one dimensionality. And that still makes Kevin a good player and a very good scorer, but he's not a big impact guy at this point. And that's common for OGs, and one of the reasons that anything but a superstar OG is a fairly unimportant piece. By its very nature, the OG position is jsut about the most one dimesnional on a team unless you have the superfreak. An inside guy, you expect to at least have two dimesnions -- scoring + rebounding. A PG, scoring + passing. But an OG, by their very nature they are normally just the one thing until you cross over into that rarified Kobe/TMac/Wade air where they start creating, rebounding, etc.etc.


P.S. And this is just an aside, because a) I always consider these stats to be a little shaky, and its easy to make too much of them, and b) its really almost a topic for another thread; but in terms of +/- right now, Ron (+13.3), Brad (+13.0) and Beno(+9.4) have been by far and away our difference makers this year. Kevin sits at a very pedestrian +1.2, lumped in there with Salmons (-1.3) and Mikki (-1.4).
 
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P.S. And this is just an aside, because a) I always consider these stats to be a little shaky, and its easy to make too much of them, and b) its really almost a topic for another thread; but in terms of +/- right now, Ron (+13.3), Brad (+13.0) and Beno(+9.4) have been by far and away our difference makers this year. Kevin sits at a very pedestrian +1.2, lumped in there with Salmons (-1.3) and Mikki (-1.4).

I think to have a fair comparison you would need the stats for the games they all played in. Ron and Beno get an unfair boost for missing the pasting that was the first three games. Brad missed the Utah game and did not have a real backup until Spencer the last few games. Also 82games has a heck of time figuring out which position our players are playing with Kevin playing 25% of his time at PG.

One thing that is clear from the stats is that Orien Greene had no identifiable basketball skills.
 
82games is not a very accurate assessment tool. As mentioned above, they get the positions or amount of time spent at a position wrong on guys. Because of that, I question whatever information that they put out.
 
82games is not a very accurate assessment tool. As mentioned above, they get the positions or amount of time spent at a position wrong on guys. Because of that, I question whatever information that they put out.
Still, to compare +13 to +1, there's something worth considering there. Maybe it isn't quite +13 for Ron and Brad, and maybe it's more than +1 for Kevin, but it can't be too far off.

So call it +11 and +3. There's still a point to be made.
 
Think about this.

Other than Kobe and Dwyane Wade, would our record be any better than it is now if we had any other of those SG or SF on our team in Martin's spot.

I don't think so.

And then think about who at SG on that list would you want other than who we have now.

Pretty much Kobe or Dwyane Wade.
As Brick mentioned, we're talking about the position does and has always boasted the most pure scorers in the game. Oftentimes, scoring guards do nothing but score. I don't think it's relevant to talk about who affects their team's win/loss record more when you're talking about shooting guards, as there are only a handful of shooting guards who automatically bring wins with them. You can look at any of those players, and almost all of them have played on teams that have missed the playoffs, even Kobe, as good and multi-dimensional as he is.

Secondly, when you compare the skill sets that Kevin has with most of those other players, and then you take into account the consistency that players like Rip Hamilton and Ray Allen have played with for several years now, I have to disagree with the idea that they are not better than Kevin Martin, all around. Same with Michael Redd, as he has shown the ability to distribute, score, rebound, and he plays superior man defense to Kevin. And I keep forgetting about Vince Carter, who is a shooting guard with a superior all-around game to Kevin's.

This is not a knock against Kevin Martin. But his game is about scoring, and while he's shown flashes, he hasn't shown the ability to consistently create for teammates, defend well, be an impact rebounder, etc. And that's not even taking into account the intangibles that separate elite players from the really good ones. And since he is primarily a scorer at this point and he plays a position that boasts the most pure scorers in the League, his 20+ ppg average doesn't distinguish him from the rest of the scorers at his position.
 
Secondly, when you compare the skill sets that Kevin has with most of those other players, and then you take into account the consistency that players like Rip Hamilton and Ray Allen have played with for several years now, I have to disagree with the idea that they are not better than Kevin Martin, all around. Same with Michael Redd, as he has shown the ability to distribute, score, rebound, and he plays superior man defense to Kevin.

I think your overrating what Redd does on the court. Does he really play superior man defense than Kevin? I don't see it. His ability to distribute? I guess...possibly, but certainly its not much of a difference and his passing ability is far from an asset. By the way, Ray Allen has never played a lick of defense. Then doesn't that push him down the ladder when rating guards?

No, KMart is on the same level as those guys...except the highest tier which belongs to Kobe and Wade among others. Vince Carter....sure is spectacular at times but also plays porous defense. And porous is understating it. When Carter is going to the hole, he's darn good when drawing fouls. When he resorts to jumpshots, he's certainly not as effective.
 
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