K-MART is NOT our early season MVP

Kevin Martin is? Wow, that's great. I didn't think the ballot had been counted yet.

:rolleyes:

Haha - good one VF.

To be honest, I don't think Martin will make the all star team this year (or even for at least a few years). You have to think that fans will vote in TMac and Kobe as usual. Then Nash is a pretty sure fire vote by the coaches. Then you have guys like Paul, Deron, Iverson, Davis, Parker, and Ginobli who are all having very good seasons at the gaurd spots this year. Out West, there are just too many gaurds.
 
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Very entertaining turn this thread has taken. I know there are still those of us that feel GP should keep his job, I did not actualy realize that there are still those that will justify each and every move and still feel that there is no reason to question.

How can any one really expect Kevin to be an allstar when he is on one of the worst teams in the league?
 
I was stating he "is" because he will be, I know as of right now he isnt.

But besides kobe...he is one of the highest scoring twos, and his rebounding numbers are pretty good. if he were on a different team he would have been one already. Sacramento does not get any love outside of Sactown. I mean I know our franchise doesnt know if we are a contender/rebuild mode...but kmart is putting up all-stars numbers thats my point. he is a top 5 shooting guard in the nba....I think being popular is retarded...its should be skills and performance. kinda like how kmart killed ellis last year and this year and got jacked. its just retarded.

Kmart is 100 times better than Monte Ellis will ever be.
 
You can honestly tell me kmart isnt a top 5 two guard in this leauge. he should have Ray Allens spot now that he is the east. I mean I may be bias but the dude is skilled. Kobe, Mcgrady, Durant....then? Kmart
 
You can honestly tell me kmart isnt a top 5 two guard in this leauge. he should have Ray Allens spot now that he is the east. I mean I may be bias but the dude is skilled. Kobe, Mcgrady, Durant....then? Kmart

It depends on where you put Ginobili, he has the second highest PER in the league - 29.58. Also from the phrasing of your question I am guessing you are only counting western conference Shooting guards. So you would not be counting Wade or Redd. With Carter, Allen and Hamilton falling off this year. Unfortunately for Kevin he is going to have to fight for spot in the year to come with Deron Williams, Chris Paul and Kevin Durant if they put him at Guard. Right now you have Kobe, McGrady, Paul, Williams, Nash, Parker, Manu, Baron Davis and Allen Iverson all in the mix. That is a lot of guards to beat out. His only hope right now is for the Kings to win a lot of games and for him to be a Wally [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Szczerbiak like replacement. [/FONT]
 
Well since McGrady's not really a 2-guard, nor is Durant (not that I think KD is better than K-Mart right now). I could easily say that K-Mart is top 5. Ginobli is definitely there. Kobe's there. A.I. is there if he still counts as a 2-guard.

But regardless, all I can think right now is where will K-Mart be when he's actually in his prime? That body of his looks like its about only 20 years old. Heck, he looks like he could grow an inch or two in height. That means he's got time before his body fully matures even if his age is older.
 
even not counting t-mac, you're saying that as of this moment, kevin is clearly better than most of these guys?

-kobe bryant
-joe johnson
-paul pierce
-ray allen
-manu ginobli
-andre iguodola
-michael redd
-josh howard
-dwyane wade
-rip hamilton
-stephen jackson

edit: never mind, i guess the discussion was only pertaining to the western guards for the all-star game, as opposed to all-star caliber level players.
 
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You can honestly tell me kmart isnt a top 5 two guard in this leauge. he should have Ray Allens spot now that he is the east. I mean I may be bias but the dude is skilled. Kobe, Mcgrady, Durant....then? Kmart

The problem with being new to a website is you don't know the history of various people. I was one of the VERY FIRST PEOPLE on the Kevin Martin bandwagon, right behind Kingsgurl and 1kingzfan and just a bit before 6th. There are no more devoted Martin fans on this board than we are.

I have supported this talented young man from day one so please don't act as though you're the only one who knows about his talents.

BUT he still has a lot of room to grow and ways to improve, which I'm confident he will do.

As far as whether or not he would already be an all-star if he were on a different team, he's not on a different team so it's a moot point... and one that, as much as I like Kev, think is about as relevant as whether or not Aquaman could beat Batman in arm-wrestling.

Kev isn't top tier yet but I'm sure he'll get there. And when he does, maybe this thread should be resurrected.
 
-kobe bryant
-joe johnson
-paul pierce
-ray allen
-manu ginobli
-andre iguodola
-michael redd
-josh howard
-dwyane wade
-rip hamilton
-stephen jackson

He is on the same level as all that you stated. also most you did list Kevin have better ft% and 3pt%. but he is having a better year than both Joe Johnson and Josh Howard. You also have to remember most of these guys have other guys around them. When teams come to play Sacramento most will Dbl team Kevin. this is our main threat offense wise. he is a equal/better scorer then almost every single person on this list stats wise. except for kobe.
 
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He is on the same level as all that you stated. also most you did list Kevin have better ft% and 3pt%. but he is having a better year that both Joe Johnson and Josh Howard. You also have to remember most of these guys have other guys around them. When teams come to play Sacramento most will Dbl team Kevin. the is our main threat offense wise. he is a equal/better scorer then almost every single person on this list stats wise. except for kobe.

Let's see his stats AFTER a full year of having defenses key on him, okay? He is NOT on the same level as everyone on that list yet. And blind homerism isn't going to change the facts.
 
I have supported this talented young man from day one so please don't act as though you're the only one who knows about his talents.

BUT he still has a lot of room to grow and ways to improve, which I'm confident he will do.
Kev isn't top tier yet but I'm sure he'll get there. And when he does, maybe this thread should be resurrected.

I am not disagreeing with you, I just do not agree with this thread. I think on most of kevins bad nights he and ron are our best players.

and I have also stated that Kevins game isnt perfect, but I disagree with the statement "he isnt a top tier player" because he is. Every player has a weakness, even kobe. Kevin needs to work on his on ball defense and his rebounding even though it is getting way better this year. also his ability to create his own shots along with creating plays for others(his assists).
 
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Laughable post in my opinion as you give absolutely no credit to Petrie....none. He builds the team to championship caliber. The Webber injury must have been Petrie's fault. Underestimating the impact of the injury. Anyone could have picked KMart? Oh....ok.
I didn't claim that anyone could have picked Kevin Martin... :confused:

My post is a quick summary of the decline we've experienced in the past four years. If you want to see me singing Petrie's praises, check the archives; as I said, I was as big a Petrie supporter as anyone else.

I've been looking at this from the standpoint of "why aren't we getting any better," and the post that I quoted originally opened my eyes to what the real question should be: Why are we continually getting worse? When you have a GM who has shown the ability to build a championship contender from the ground up, you have to wonder why, every year since 2002, we've won fewer and fewer games, to the point where we struggled to win 30 games last year. This year doesn't look any better. Why can't Petrie bring in players that will help the team, that will make us better?

And the reason that last question is so key, in my opinion, isn't because we're not getting better. It's because we're consistently getting worse. No new talent, no moves to lessen the salary cap bind we're in, nothing to give evidence of competence or give a reason to hope. Instead, we bring in John Salmons and Mikki Moore. Nothing wrong with those players, but nothing right with them, either. They don't make us better, now or in the future, and we sign them to bigger and longer contracts than any "rebuilding" team should ever be signing middling-at-best players to. Can't hide behind the excuse that the owners have decided not to spend any money at all, because over the past two years, over $40 million worth of contracts have been given to two players that have done nothing to help the team.

So, instead of continuing to "drink from the trough", I am no longer an unconditional Geoff Petrie supporter. Never will be again. Doesn't mean I don't support him. In fact, I made consideration in my earlier post for the fact that the Maloofs have definitely stood in Petrie's way, to a certain extent, as they are no longer signing $80 million payroll checks, like money is no object. However, that excuse doesn't fly when you ask the question I asked before: "Why are we continually getting worse?" Why can't this great GM who built a championship-caliber team at least keep us at or above 40-45 wins a season?

That is the question that is not answered simply by singing Petrie's praises based on the team he built six or seven years ago. That is a "what have you done for me lately" question, and it's a fair question to ask because Petrie hasn't done anything lately to make us better.
 
He is on the same level as all that you stated. also most you did list Kevin have better ft% and 3pt%. but he is having a better year than both Joe Johnson and Josh Howard. You also have to remember most of these guys have other guys around them. When teams come to play Sacramento most will Dbl team Kevin. this is our main threat offense wise. he is a equal/better scorer then almost every single person on this list stats wise. except for kobe.
We're not talking fantasy basketball here. In real life basketball, Kevin Martin has yet to demonstrate that he deserves to be considered an equal to Bryant, Wade, Allen, Pierce or, quite frankly, Ginobili. In fact, in terms of what he's proven to this point in his career, I would put Martin on par with Hamilton and Jackson, a step behind Howard, Redd, Johnson and Iguodala (all for different reasons respectively), and 2-5 steps behind the rest of those guys.
 
a step behind Howard, Redd, Johnson and Iguodala (all for different reasons respectively), and 2-5 steps behind the rest of those guys

WOW! what has Howard, Redd, Johnson or IGUODALA done that kmart hasnt?
 
WOW! what has Howard, Redd, Johnson or IGUODALA done that kmart hasnt?
This is a joke, right? I mean, is guess if you were ONLY looking at this season, you might be able to say, "not much." For a couple of them. But I'm not just looking at this season.

Michael Redd, who had the same general career progression that Martin did, is a better shooter from three than Martin, a better ball handler, and a better rebounder. And has actually led a team to the playoffs twice, as the head guy.

Johnson is a step behind percentage-wise to Martin, but is a more effective scorer. He's also a better ballhandler, a better rebounder, and a better defender. And, frankly, I'll take Johnson's best full season-to-date [25.0 (.471)/4.2/4.4] over Martin's [20.2 (.473)/4.3/2.2].

Howard is better, practically across the board. He's better from the field, a far superior rebounder, and a far superior defender. As far as what he's done that Martin hasn't (and I'll grant you he's had more opportunity), he's come up big in the playoffs, which trumps all this regular season nonsense.

Iguodala is probably going to be the best out of the five. Neither he nor Martin have actually "done" anything yet... Like Martin, had a breakout season last year, but his breakout season was much more impressive than Martin's (18/6/6/2... are you SERIOUSLY telling me that you don't understand what makes that better than 20/4/2/1?) A superior ballhandler and, like Howard, a far superior rebounder and defender.
 
Josh Howard is on a contender with Dirk, does josh draw a double? if you switched team with those two...I think Kevin would be alot better on that team.

Kevin is Developing at a very high rate, he is already doubled his rebound totals. he does need to develop his handle some more. but

Andre Iguodola Had freak Allen Iverson that got all the attention so please!

Joe Johnson had a good early career because he played on a team with Amare and Marion!

Kevin Martin gets doubled getting dressed in the morning!!!
 
Josh Howard is on a contender with Dirk, does josh draw a double? if you switched team with those two...I think Kevin would be alot better on that team.
You would be wrong. Howard makes things easier for Nowitzki, not the other way around; he's the reason why Nowitzki doesn't see double teams.

Kevin is Developing at a very high rate, he is already doubled his rebound totals.
When he averages five rebounds a game for a season, then he's doubled his rebound totals. Until then, he's just off to a hot start. People were lining up to shout from the rooftops when Martin was OMG2NDINTEHLEEGINSCORINGZ~!!!!, but most of those same people have been unsurprisingly tight-lipped since he's fallen back to the pack. Hell, just last year he averaged 23 points after the first month, and dropped to 20 by the end of the season... So the hot start doesn't mean anything unless it holds up.

Andre Iguodola Had freak Allen Iverson that got all the attention so please!
You're not even trying.

Iguodala averaged 18/6/6/2 in seventy-six games. Iverson only played fifteen games for Philadelphia last year, so unless you're trying to make the case that Iguodala's average was so high in the fifteen games he played with Iverson that he was able to coast through the sixty-one games he played without him, then your argument died on the operating table.

Joe Johnson had a good early career because he played on a team with Amare and Marion!
And he's been better without them. What's your point?

Kevin Martin gets doubled getting dressed in the morning!!!
You're not very good at hyperbole.
 
and I have also stated that Kevins game isnt perfect, but I disagree with the statement "he isnt a top tier player" because he is.

No... NO... NO HE'S NOT!

But, as usual, you failed to take my entire quote into consideration and left out a very IMPORTANT word. I said, and I'll quote myself to make sure I'm not quoted out of context:

VF21 said:
He's not a top tier player YET!

The omission of that one word makes a lot of difference. Kevin has the potential to be one of the best, if he can continue to improve. And he wants to improve, which is a big part of the process.

You're doing him AND the guys who truly are top tier a disservice when you compare him to Kobe or any of the other names you've bandied about like a virtual GM instructor.

Give him a chance to earn the accolades before you just throw them at his feet. I think he'll do it...
 
Josh Howard is a small forward by the way. Redd and KMart are same type of player, which is they are more offensive than defensive. Neither guy will be making all-defensive team any time soon. Joe Johnson is a more-well rounded player than those 2 guys IMO. Iguodala is a heck of a talent but turns the ball over quite a bit. All that being said, I'd take any of those guys for a team. All our pretty darn good.
 
You would be wrong. Howard makes things easier for Nowitzki, not the other way around; he's the reason why Nowitzki doesn't see double teams.

When he averages five rebounds a game for a season, then he's doubled his rebound totals. Until then, he's just off to a hot start. People were lining up to shout from the rooftops when Martin was OMG2NDINTEHLEEGINSCORINGZ~!!!!, but most of those same people have been unsurprisingly tight-lipped since he's fallen back to the pack. Hell, just last year he averaged 23 points after the first month, and dropped to 20 by the end of the season... So the hot start doesn't mean anything unless it holds up.

You're not even trying.

Iguodala averaged 18/6/6/2 in seventy-six games. Iverson only played fifteen games for Philadelphia last year, so unless you're trying to make the case that Iguodala's average was so high in the fifteen games he played with Iverson that he was able to coast through the sixty-one games he played without him, then your argument died on the operating table.

And he's been better without them. What's your point?

You're not very good at hyperbole.

ouch!

LL owned by Slim
 
You would be wrong. Howard makes things easier for Nowitzki, not the other way around; he's the reason why Nowitzki doesn't see double teams.

There may be some truth in this but I'm pretty sure that without Dirk on the floor, all the other Mavs are not as good.
 
You're doing him AND the guys who truly are top tier a disservice when you compare him to Kobe or any of the other names you've bandied about like a virtual GM instructor.

I have always said kobe is better.

-kobe bryant
-joe johnson
-paul pierce
-ray allen
-manu ginobli
-andre iguodola
-michael redd
-josh howard
-dwyane wade
-rip hamilton
-stephen jackson

alot of these people are Sfs not sgs.

You would be wrong. Howard makes things easier for Nowitzki, not the other way around; he's the reason why Nowitzki doesn't see double teams.

Josh Howard does not make dirk better, are you telling me Josh Howard made Dirk into the MVP? what about Jerry Stackhouse, and Jason Terry the team is loaded. Which makes Josh Howard have it way easier when you have quality people around him. Kevin Martin had John Salmons and Brad Miller.

The whole point of my original post was this thread was a slap in the face to Kevin. Of course every player has a weakness no player is perfect, Unless your name is MJ. but How can you honestly say he isnt the MVP of our team?
He won the Dbl overtime Knick game. he will get better I have stated his flaws but at the bare minium he is in the same talk as any of the above listed. ever year he has gotten alot better. Ron Artest is our most talented two way player, but Kevin Martin is by far our best scorer, and a top NBA talent. Agreed? dont get me wrong I am very impressed with Beno, and John, and brad for that matter. so I guess back to the topic Kevin and Ron are our MVPs, with Beno right behind them.

With the history of this team I just hope if Beno keeps playing at a high level, the kings dont let him walk away with artest.
 
Taking Kobe and Wade out of the above list....I'd put Kevin right in there with the SG's. A few of those guys are SF-types. KMart can hold his own with any of those guys on any given night. Don't underestimate the ability to score.
 
Taking Kobe and Wade out of the above list....I'd put Kevin right in there with the SG's. A few of those guys are SF-types. KMart can hold his own with any of those guys on any given night. Don't underestimate the ability to score.

Michael Redd, Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton and Manu Ginobili are all more shooting guard than small forward, and all are a cut above Kevin Martin.

I think it might be a bit premature to be having this conversation, so early in the season. It's like Slim said, if Martin can sustain this level of play throughout the season, then we can start upgrading his status. But, as of right now, he's still a third-tier shooting guard in the NBA.

And, not that this is Kevin's fault, he is not going to be an All-Star anytime soon, not unless he averages 25/5/6 this season and comes out hot again next season, then he might get some votes for the 2009 All-Star game. And even then, he'd still be a coaches choice or a fill-in. As was mentioned before, there are just too many elite guards in the West, including Kobe, McGrady, Nash, CP3, Iverson, Baron Davis, Tony Parker, etc. The field is way too deep at guard for a guy like Kevin Martin to get chosen.
 
Josh Howard does not make dirk better, are you telling me Josh Howard made Dirk into the MVP? what about Jerry Stackhouse, and Jason Terry the team is loaded. Which makes Josh Howard have it way easier when you have quality people around him. Kevin Martin had John Salmons and Brad Miller.

Howard is the second best player on the Mavs, no doubt. But he's the only other player on that team that will punish the defense consistently, whether he's single-covered or double-covered. He's a game-changing player who has to be accounted for. Stackhouse and Terry are complimentary players; Howard is a catalyst type player.
 
Think about this.

Other than Kobe and Dwyane Wade, would our record be any better than it is now if we had any other of those SG or SF on our team in Martin's spot.

I don't think so.

And then think about who at SG on that list would you want other than who we have now.

Pretty much Kobe or Dwyane Wade.
 
Here is some of those players 3rd year stats:

Kobe
19.9, 5.3, 3.8, 1.4

Ray allen
20, 3.4, 2.7, .6

Joe Johnson
9.8, 3.2, 2.6, .8

Rip hamliton
20, 3.4, 2.7, .6

Kevin Martin
20.2, 4.3, 2.2, 1.2
 
Think about this.

Other than Kobe and Dwyane Wade, would our record be any better than it is now if we had any other of those SG or SF on our team in Martin's spot.

I don't think so.

And then think about who at SG on that list would you want other than who we have now.

Pretty much Kobe or Dwyane Wade.

I agree. Those other SG's listed above, except for Kobe and Wade, are not a cut above KMart right now. Maybe it is premature to talk about it because of the length of the careers but as of right now, he is as good as those others. Excluding the length of the careers factor, how does he not compare to Allen and Redd? All 3 are offensive SG's. Allen is a better long-range shooter, but Redd and KMart penetrate well and get to the line. Without seeing the shooting %'s and going by total recall, KMart may have a better shooting %. Rip and Ginobili have had the benefit of playing on great teams for most of their careers. KMart in the 3rd tier? Only if these other guys are listed as 3rd tier SG's.
 
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