JT wants to get traded (and other trade discussion)

[GQ_Gabriel]

We get that. It's just not a great point.

Time will tell, my friend. I credit you for resisting the urge to drool over a trio of Dragic-Gay-Cousins, albeit at a price. I am in love with the thought of having a point guard who is as talented as he is.

 

[twslam07]

Great post, I agree with this. That's exactly the point I'm trying to get across.

It's really not that good of a point. Why trade for a player who will most likely bolt at the end of the year? He has said where he wants to play and the Kings weren't one of them. There are teams that will have much more cap space than us and we have no leverage to keep him here.

Would Dragic make us a better team this year? Yes. However, when Dragic leaves next year, you are back to the same team you had before minus the assets you gave up. Actually, you are taking a step back as a team, but as the FO has shown us, they are absolutely fine with taking a step or two back so who knows...

 

[rainmaker]

Do people consider Dragic to be worth around 14M/Y under the current cap? As a member of our big 3, that'd put him right between Rudy and Cuz. I bring up the current cap because based on wide speculation, the cap stands to go up roughly 14-16M in one off season, in the summer of 2016.

Under the current cap, 14M/Y would be the same as 18M/Y in 2016 after the increase. That's roughly 22% of our cap space and with Rudy at 13.3M and Cuz at 15.7M in 2016, that's collectively 47M and 59% of our cap space, assuming Dragic at 18M. Ben would still be on his rookie deal at 4M. So a Cuz/Rudy/Dragic/Ben core in 2016 would be 51M, 64% of our cap space and leaving us with 29M to fill out the roster. Cuz will be one of the better deals in the league under the raised salary cap.

That is hardly as bad of a picture as some are attempting to paint it. We'd be pretty limited next year but have a great deal of flexibility and cap space after Karl's initial first season and when entering the new arena. Yes Dragic would be overpaid, and this is a max scenario but we're also a small market where beggars can't be choosers. We're going to have to overpay although we lucked out a bit with Rudy signing for what he did.

Right now under a 63M cap we have Landry/DWill taking up 21% of our cap space, although we've gone over. Go back year after year and we regularly have had poor bench players taking up huge amounts of our cap space. Not sure about everyone else but I'd much rather a guy like Dragic taking up that space and helping us win than overpaying again for bench players, as that's pretty much our option year after year after we strike out in free agency.

All that being said, I'm not sure I'd offer Dragic that money but the greater point is looking at our cap space next year is short sided. Rudy/Dragic/Cuz and under Karl and another step up from Ben gets us in playoff contention next year, we'll take a real step forward. Then that next step and much more flexibility comes that following summer. This isn't something which screws us over for years. And don't forget that same summer in 2016, it's going to be even more expensive to get guys of Dragic's caliber. If you're going to overpay, make damn sure you do it now before the cap jacks up a little over a year from now.

If you're going to overpay, you overpay for your core 3 and stop overpaying for all the support players.

As for Collison and Dragic being near the same level of player, I sincerely hope that's a joke. Barely worth a response.

 

[GQ_Gabriel]

It's really not that good of a point. Why trade for a player who will most likely bolt at the end of the year? He has said where he wants to play and the Kings weren't one of them. There are teams that will have much more cap space than us and we have no leverage to keep him here.

Would Dragic make us a better team this year? Yes. However, when Dragic leaves next year, you are back to the same team you had before minus the assets you gave up. Actually, you are taking a step back as a team, but as the FO has shown us, they are absolutely fine with taking a step or two back so who knows...

I think that's a very premature assumption. PDA would not make this move without some sort of assurance that he would re-sign here in Sacramento. In my opinion, the Kings are willing to "over pay" for his services as they have been trying to obtain Dragic for some time now.

 

[CurseOfTheSalmons]

... and we won 28 games.
Perhaps these two things (losing a ball dominant scoring PG and Ben McLemore improving this year in a bigger role) had something to do with each other?

That's so fallacious. Basketball is a team game. There are starters, and then there are subs. The subs and supporting players (including Ben McLemore) on last years team sucked. None of Isaiah, Gay, or Cousins were holding the team back. Ben's biggest improvement has come defensively, which has very little to do with touches or Isaiah Thomas unless you wish to contend that Isaiah never talked on defense, which no one can prove.

 

[sdballer]

Do people consider Dragic to be worth around 14M/Y under the current cap? As a member of our big 3, that'd put him right between Rudy and Cuz. I bring up the current cap because based on wide speculation, the cap stands to go up roughly 14-16M in one off season, in the summer of 2016.

Under the current cap, 14M/Y would be the same as 18M/Y in 2016 after the increase. That's roughly 22% of our cap space and with Rudy at 13.3M and Cuz at 15.7M in 2016, that's collectively 47M and 59% of our cap space. Ben would still be on his rookie deal at 4M. So a Cuz/Rudy/Dragic/Ben core in 2016 would be 51M, 64% of our cap space and leaving us with 29M to fill out the roster. Cuz will be one of the better deals in the league under the raised salary cap.

That is hardly as bad of a picture as some are attempting to paint it. We'd be pretty limited next year but have a great deal of flexibility and cap space after Karl's initial first season and when entering the new arena. Yes Dragic would be overpaid, and this is a max scenario but we're also a small market where beggars can't be choosers. We're going to have to overpay although we lucked out a bit with Rudy signing for what he did.

Right now under a 63M cap we have Landry/DWill taking up 21% of our cap space, although we've gone over. Go back year after year and we regularly have had poor bench players taking up huge amounts of our cap space. Not sure about everyone else but I'd much rather a guy like Dragic taking up that space and helping us win than overpaying again for bench players, as that's pretty much our option year after year after we strike out in free agency.

All that being said, I'm not sure I'd offer Dragic that money but the greater point is our cap space is short sided. Rudy/Dragic/Cuz and under Karl and another step up from Ben gets us in playoff contention next year, we'll take a real step forward. Then that next step and much more flexibility comes that following summer. This isn't something which screws us over for years. And don't forget that same summer in 2016, it's going to be even more expensive to get guys of Dragic's caliber. If you're going to overpay, make damn sure you do it now before that cap jacks up a little over a year from now.

I think this is a fair point but with the uncertainty of the next CBA, I think paying a guy like dragic 20M is a gamble. The cap will climb the same for everyone and I don't want to once again be overpaying talent at 20 like we are doing at 6-8 now. It's how a rising cap won't actually create more parity and the small market teams that don't blow that money early will be in a much better place.

We've already made great moves with cuz and gay and I have no problem with 3-4 year deals that overpay by 3-4 million in prep of the rise. But giving a non-star that doesn't really address our biggest needs that kind if money, while also likely losing the few other assets we have to get him, seems like a major risk.

 

[Section 101]

Do people consider Dragic to be worth around 14M/Y under the current cap? As a member of our big 3, that'd put him right between Rudy and Cuz. I bring up the current cap because based on wide speculation, the cap stands to go up roughly 14-16M in one off season, in the summer of 2016.

One of the issues Silver brought up over the all star break is making the cap go up over a number of years, not a one year jump. So the league is working hard for it not to happen.

 

[sdballer]

I think that's a very premature assumption. PDA would not make this move without some sort of assurance that he would re-sign here in Sacramento. In my opinion, the Kings are willing to "over pay" for his services as they have been trying to obtain Dragic for some time now.

Sort of like how he wouldn't fire a coach without a plan to replace him. There are no guarantees and for what it's worth, media in phx is already saying dragic wouldn't resign in sac. Probably agent speak to pressure the suns to send dragic to the market he wants, but still there is no way to prevent him walking this summer.

 

[Section 101]

I think that's a very premature assumption. PDA would not make this move without some sort of assurance that he would re-sign here in Sacramento. In my opinion, the Kings are willing to "over pay" for his services as they have been trying to obtain Dragic for some time now.

Carlos Boozer.

 

[hrdboild]

What I was getting at is that you cannot say Collison and Dragic average the same numbers therefor they will give us the same type of play at PG and we would be none the better. Stats mean nothing when comparing the two players. Dragic gives you much more than Collison and I feel Dragic would make players around him better, and Collison does not.

He's a smarter player, and can make adjustments on the fly, something I don't think Collison can do as well. So basically that's what I meant by what I said. Thanks for the [sarcasm]..

It wasn't sarcasm, it was disbelief. Collison is shooting 37% from three. Dragic is shooting 35%. That's a tangible way that Collison is making us a better team. Collison is averaging 1.5 stls per game, Dragic is averaging 1 stl per game. As a team we're terrible in creating turnovers and Collison is currently leading the team in steals. That's another tangible way that Collison is making us a better team. Obviously these are two different players. Collison is more of a run the offense, get the ball to his scorers, and spot up type of PG. He's also pretty good on a fast break. Dragic is a run the pick and roll, drive into the paint and score, or dish when the defense collapses type of PG. I don't see how his style of play would make us better. Not with our two leading scorers preferring to work near the basket. Or rather, even if I acknowledge that Dragic would help us, he's nowhere near the impact player that he thinks he is and he's likely to get the contract of a borderline All Star and contribute with play that (all things considered) isn't much better overall than what we're already getting from Collison.

Certainly I would agree that stats aren't everything, but I'm at least giving you factual evidence to back up my claims. You're giving me "[Dragic] is a smarter player and can make adjustments on the fly". Based on what criteria? What is he doing with this mental advantage? Why is he having such a poor season? He shot 41% from three last season but his career average is 36% and he's only had one other season where he shot even 37% over the course of a season. Can you explain why that happened? He's shooting worse than his career 3pt% average this season. Are his scoring numbers from last season even repeatable? He's getting 3 less free throws per game this season, did he lose a step? Is he settling for jumpers more? Maybe you're right, maybe Dragic is a lot better than his numbers this season indicate. I'll believe it if anyone can prove it to me. As of right now, his career season is looking more like a fluke than a trend to me.

 

[Glenn]

I would pay $15 mil for a great shot blocking big than a pg given our roster as it is.

 

[Section 101]

I think this is a fair point but with the uncertainty of the next CBA, I think paying a guy like dragic 20M is a gamble. The cap will climb the same for everyone and I don't want to once again be overpaying talent at 20 like we are doing at 6-8 now. It's how a rising cap won't actually create more parity and the small market teams that don't blow that money early will be in a much better place.

We've already made great moves with cuz and gay and I have no problem with 3-4 year deals that overpay by 3-4 million in prep of the rise. But giving a non-star that doesn't really address our biggest needs that kind if money, while also likely losing the few other assets we have to get him, seems like a major risk.

I like Dragic, but his estimated salary demands and AGE are not worth any assets. If he was 3 years younger I would say yes.

 

[The_Jamal]

It's really not that good of a point. Why trade for a player who will most likely bolt at the end of the year? He has said where he wants to play and the Kings weren't one of them. There are teams that will have much more cap space than us and we have no leverage to keep him here.

Would Dragic make us a better team this year? Yes. However, when Dragic leaves next year, you are back to the same team you had before minus the assets you gave up. Actually, you are taking a step back as a team, but as the FO has shown us, they are absolutely fine with taking a step or two back so who knows...

How can you be so sure? Sacto doesn't look to bad all of a sudden for a bottom top 10ish PG (exactly the kind of FA's we have a chance at getting) with Karl now on board long-term and the best young big in the league. Dragic made Miles Plumlee a PnR stud last season... what do you think he could with with DeMarcus?

Dragic at $14mil is probably around 3 mil too much as I see him more of a guy who should have Curry and Lawson's current deal, but with inflation of players and considering what market we're in, you have to go and try and get quality players when you can. Don't really care about his numbers this season either as he's playing in the most stacked back-court in the league with 2 other extremely ball-dominant ball-handlers and another dude who loves to chuck.

Regardless, Dragic-Ben-Gay-Cuz and Karl is a playoff team with a chance to do something real in the playoffs. That's enough for me to take the risk on snagging Dragic and then offering him the best deal in FA

 

[rainmaker]

One of the issues Silver brought up over the all star break is making the cap go up over a number of years, not a one year jump. So the league is working hard for it not to happen.

My projections are if it's smoothed over. If it's not, the jump would be to 90M+ in 2016.

NBA players have rejected a proposal that would "smooth" the projected windfall from the new television deal that the league signed last October, setting up a substantial increase of the salary cap in 2016, according to reports. Per Tim Bontemps of the New York Post, the salary cap is expected jump above $90 million -- a nearly $27 million jump from the 2014-15 salary cap.

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/2/13/8...ng-2016-free-agency-lebron-james-kevin-durant

 

[twslam07]

I think that's a very premature assumption. PDA would not make this move without some sort of assurance that he would re-sign here in Sacramento. In my opinion, the Kings are willing to "over pay" for his services as they have been trying to obtain Dragic for some time now.

I could say that thinking Dragic makes this team better is a very premature assumption. Doesn't make it any less right.

I think my assumption is a very likely assumption. Signing a free agent is a two way street. They need to be interested in you just like you need to be interested in them. Dragic is not interested in us at this point in time. Thus, it would be a very high risk to trade for him.

 

[Bricklayer]

I like Dragic, but his estimated salary demands and AGE are not worth any assets. If he was 3 years younger I would say yes.

I don't like him at that salary number, but I hardly think 28 qualifies as on the decline, particularly with a guy who's only been in the league 6 years. Rudy's 28. Collison is 27. Late 20s kind of translates as "in prime and ready to win".

 

[sdballer]

How can you be so sure? Sacto doesn't look to bad all of a sudden for a bottom top 10ish PG (exactly the kind of FA's we have a chance at getting) with Karl now on board long-term and the best young big in the league. Dragic made Miles Plumlee a PnR stud last season... what do you think he could with with DeMarcus?

Dragic at $14mil is probably around 3 mil too much as I see him more of a guy who should have Curry and Lawson's current deal, but with inflation of players and considering what market we're in, you have to go and try and get quality players when you can. Don't really care about his numbers this season either as he's playing in the most stacked back-court in the league with 2 other extremely ball-dominant ball-handlers and another dude who loves to chuck.

Regardless, Dragic-Ben-Gay-Cuz and Karl is a playoff team with a chance to do something real in the playoffs. That's enough for me to take the risk on snagging Dragic and then offering him the best deal in FA

If we could be sure he would resign at 13-14M (and we sent nik instead of Ben) I'd do it. For around 20 and Ben, I'd pass. Just too many other holes to fill (starting and backup sg, pf, c to start).

 

[parker]

Regardless, Dragic-Ben-Gay-Cuz and Karl is a playoff team with a chance to do something real in the playoffs. That's enough for me to take the risk on snagging Dragic and then offering him the best deal in FA

I think the con-Dragic crowd is assuming that you would have to trade Ben to get Dragic and then there is a good chance Dragic heads elsewhere after 30 games.

That leaves the Kings with DC-Gay-Cuz and an additional hole at SG, which is already pretty holey.

 

[Section 101]

I don't like him at that salary number, but I hardly think 28 qualifies as on the decline, particularly with a guy who's only been in the league 6 years. Rudy's 28. Collison is 27. Late 20s kind of translates as "in prime and ready to win".

It's not about being in a decline. It's about having 1 great season after several good seasons. And now he's back to good seasons. His decline will come in the next 3-4 years at the end of the contract. That's the issue with his age. Now if he signs a declining salary contract that helps things.

 

[Glenn]

I could say that thinking Dragic makes this team better is a very premature assumption. Doesn't make it any less right.

I think my assumption is a very likely assumption. Signing a free agent is a two way street. They need to be interested in you just like you need to be interested in them. Dragic is not interested in us at this point in time. Thus, it would be a very high risk to trade for him.

Duh!

 

[SacKings384]

Dragic is going to command a lot... But considering Reggie Jackson reportedly turned down 4yrs/$48 million, I imagine a lot of these players are over-valuing themselves. Dragic I think will take away from Cousins and his game. He'll also probably ask for max which I don't think we should consider, ESPECIALLY if we have to give up assets to get him.

 

[twslam07]

How can you be so sure? Sacto doesn't look to bad all of a sudden for a bottom top 10ish PG (exactly the kind of FA's we have a chance at getting) with Karl now on board long-term and the best young big in the league. Dragic made Miles Plumlee a PnR stud last season... what do you think he could with with DeMarcus?

Dragic at $14mil is probably around 3 mil too much as I see him more of a guy who should have Curry and Lawson's current deal, but with inflation of players and considering what market we're in, you have to go and try and get quality players when you can. Don't really care about his numbers this season either as he's playing in the most stacked back-court in the league with 2 other extremely ball-dominant ball-handlers and another dude who loves to chuck.

Regardless, Dragic-Ben-Gay-Cuz and Karl is a playoff team with a chance to do something real in the playoffs. That's enough for me to take the risk on snagging Dragic and then offering him the best deal in FA

Not going to debate the talent and what he could contribute to the team since I agree. However, I'm going to argue that he has already expressed his interest in where he wants to play (New York, Los Angeles, Miami). What do those teams tell me? He wants to go to a big market and that he doesn't care all that much about competing (considering LA and NY are bottom feeders at this point. That doesn't mean that he wouldn't prefer to go to a more competitive team, but it's not his highest priority right now). The only really selling point we have is that we might be competitive team that is playing in a new arena. What I've seen so far tells me that those attributes aren't that all valuable to him.

Not to mention those teams will have a ton of cap space to lure him away if we were to trade for him. We would really have to leave a lasting impression in the next 30 games. Considering we have no shot at making the playoffs and that it might take a bit for our team to get back in the swing of things with yet another coaching change, that shrinks that window of opportunity even more so.

Lastly, on top of us not being a big market team, Dragic has openly said that one of the reasons he wants to leave is because he doesn't trust them anymore. Do you think he would want to stay with this franchise then? Our FO has been lying and being deceitful all year. I'm not sure that's attractive to Dragic or any other free agent for that matter.

So yes, I'm pretty darn sure he would not stay with the Kings. Does that answer your question?

Now if he said that he's open to being moved to the Kings, obviously that changes things. However, I haven't heard him mention Sacramento as a destination that he would like to end up. Not even sure if the Suns would be open to trading him to a team in their own division.

 

[9x1x6]

My projections are if it's smoothed over. If it's not, the jump would be to 90M+ in 2016.

NBA players have rejected a proposal that would "smooth" the projected windfall from the new television deal that the league signed last October, setting up a substantial increase of the salary cap in 2016, according to reports. Per Tim Bontemps of the New York Post, the salary cap is expected jump above $90 million -- a nearly $27 million jump from the 2014-15 salary cap.

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/2/13/8...ng-2016-free-agency-lebron-james-kevin-durant

If the cap does jump to 90 mil, would that put the luxury tax threshold at 103-104 mil?

 

[rainmaker]

I would pay $15 mil for a great shot blocking big than a pg given our roster as it is.

Me too, but I don't see who's available. Hibbert with his injuries and possible locker room issues? Brook Lopez with his injuries? Robin Lopez isn't worth that. Asik isn't worth that as much as I'd like him here. DA Jordan? He's not coming to Sac. Ibaka is signed through 17/18.

A question would be if going after a shotblocker, do you want Cuz at the 4 or the 5? And the other factor I mentioned above is in 2016, the elite shotblockers, any available, will not be had for 15M but closer to 20M under the raised cap. It's only going to get more expensive after next year.

 

[9x1x6]

Not going to debate the talent and what he could contribute to the team since I agree. However, I'm going to argue that he has already expressed his interest in where he wants to play (New York, Los Angeles, Miami). What do those teams tell me? He wants to go to a big market and that he doesn't care all that much about competing (considering LA and NY are bottom feeders at this point. That doesn't mean that he wouldn't prefer to go to a more competitive team, but it's not his highest priority right now). The only really selling point we have is that we might be competitive team that is playing in a new arena. What I've seen so far tells me that those attributes aren't that all valuable to him.

Not to mention those teams will have a ton of cap space to lure him away if we were to trade for him. We would really have to leave a lasting impression in the next 30 games. Considering we have no shot at making the playoffs and that it might take a bit for our team to get back in the swing of things with yet another coaching change, that leaves that shrinks that window of opportunity even more so.

Lastly, on top of us not being a big market team, Dragic has openly said that one of the reasons he wants to leave is because he doesn't trust them anymore. Do you think he would want to stay with this franchise then? Our FO has been lying and being deceitful all year. I'm not sure that's attractive to Dragic or any other free agent for that matter.

So yes, I'm pretty darn sure he would not stay with the Kings. Does that answer your question?

He made a list of over seven teams, the media cherry picked those 3 out.

Guess people still believe everything ESPN spews out.

 

[twslam07]

He made a list of over seven teams, the media cherry picked those 3 out.

Guess people still believe everything ESPN spews out.

Haven't heard anything other than what I've seen on this board. Not sure where the ESPN assumption comes from...Woj made the announcement. Seems as credible of source as any

 

[Glenn]

Me too, but I don't see who's available. Hibbert with his injuries and possible locker room issues? Brook Lopez with his injuries? Robin Lopez isn't worth that. Asik isn't worth that as much as I'd like him here. DA Jordan? He's not coming to Sac. Ibaka is signed through 17/18.

A question would be if going after a shotblocker, do you want Cuz at the 4 or the 5? And the other factor I mentioned above is in 2016, the elite shotblockers, any available, will not be had for 15M but closer to 20M under the raised cap. It's only going to get more expensive after next year.

No one is available and I GUARANTEE if we spend that money on a pg, we will not have it for the time when a shot blocker becomes available.

 

[Warhawk]

Same reason we've been discussing goran dragic here for pages, it's where most of the trade discussion is taking place. Maybe we need to change the title.

Good point.

 

[Chubbs]

The way this works is if Dragic comes here, and there is instant winning, and huge chemistry between our stars.

There has to be something on the court to make him want to stay. Real winning, and personal success for him.

Like a 20 plus wins out of thirty kind of final run, with lots of big spoiler games.

The team would really need to make immediate noise, or I think Dragon flies away.

Or worse, they have instant success and he still bolts.

But we should also consider, if he left, and assuming we have the money to pay him, we'd then be able to throw that money at other players.

We could lose Ben and Dragic, but we'd still have a shot at a player x, whoever that might be.

I think DC would almost have to be moved to get Dragic to stay. His list seemed to include teams that both have money and have a need for a pg. We don't currently really fit that description. But if DC were moved, for someone like affalo, then you've replaced Ben, and opened a spot for Dragic. Dragic seems more interested in opportunity than being in a big market.

Make both moves, you've really got something.

 

[Bricklayer]

The way this works is if Dragic comes here, and there is instant winning, and huge chemistry between our stars.

There has to be something on the court to make him want to stay. Real winning, and personal success for him.

Like a 20 plus wins out of thirty kind of final run, with lots of big spoiler games.

The team would really need to make immediate noise, or I think Dragon flies away.

Or worse, they have instant success and he still bolts.

But we should also consider, if he left, and assuming we have the money to pay him, we'd then be able to throw that money at other players.

We could lose Ben and Dragic, but we'd still have a shot at a player x, whoever that might be.

I think DC would almost have to be moved to get Dragic to stay. His list seemed to include teams that both have money and have a need for a pg. We don't currently really fit that description. But if DC were moved, for someone like affalo, then you've replaced Ben, and opened a spot for Dragic. Dragic seems more interested in opportunity than being in a big market.

Make both moves, you've really got something.

Yes, you've got marginal upgrades at the low cost of $22mil as opposed to $9mil.

Afflalo makes sense with Ben, not replacing him.

Dragic makes sense, at least best sense, with both Ben and Collison. Then the backcourt is complete. Take away Collison and its an upgrade at PG, but not an over the top upgrade, and you still have the same problem with no depth.