JT wants to get traded (and other trade discussion)
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Dragic's stats mean more than Collison's? Dear god, we have reached the zenith of new science here. Are his missed threes actually offensive rebounds in disguise? Is he not getting credit for an abnormally large quantity of hockey assists? Dragic makes others around him better? That's a dubious claim when he's only made the playoffs in one season to date (as Steve Nash's backup in 2010). In his first season as the starting PG in Phoenix they won 25 games. The next season they brought in Jeff Hornacek as coach, Eric Bledsoe, and Gerald Green. The team won 48 games and lost 34. They went 28-15 in games that Bledsoe played and 20-19 in games that Bledsoe missed. That suggests to me that the combination of Bledsoe and Dragic is what carried them last season, and that's a situation he won't come close to replicating on any other team. It's unknown how well he will do next to Rudy and DeMarcus.
Regardless of how you want to spin it, it's an absolute fact that Darren Collison is having a better season than Goran Dragic is having this season. If Darren Collison is a career backup -- and seriously nobody ever wants to call this guy a starter even though he's holding his own pretty damn well this season -- than Goran Dragic getting outplayed by Collison for any reason has to suggest that Dragic is not an elite PG doesn't it? How much better is he really that you're going to trade assets and pay him 2-3 times what you're willing to pay Collison?
Actually, Dragic got a lot of credit last year for putting up big numbers but the numbers -- 20 and 6 -- aren't all that big for the kind of attention he got. The real story was Phoenix's record, and as I already showed you, that doesn't happen without Bledsoe. That record without Bledsoe is hardly MVP worthy. And one season of 20 and 6 certainly doesn't warrant the kind of contract he wants. Five consecutive seasons of 20 and 6, maybe. Although given his age that would still be a mistake. Let's look at the career of another almost All Star PG who averaged 20 and 6 in his age 27 season, Mike Bibby:
Uh-oh
I'm sure glad we didn't sign up for his age 29-33 seasons. Does that mean Dragic will suffer a similar fate? Of course not. But there's a mountain of evidence out there which suggests giving Dragic a large contract this summer (anything over 10 million a year for 3 years) is a massive mistake. And yet some idiotic team will do it anyway because, well, they need a PG and he's a name people know.
Regardless of how you want to spin it, it's an absolute fact that Darren Collison is having a better season than Goran Dragic is having this season. If Darren Collison is a career backup -- and seriously nobody ever wants to call this guy a starter even though he's holding his own pretty damn well this season -- than Goran Dragic getting outplayed by Collison for any reason has to suggest that Dragic is not an elite PG doesn't it? How much better is he really that you're going to trade assets and pay him 2-3 times what you're willing to pay Collison?
Actually, Dragic got a lot of credit last year for putting up big numbers but the numbers -- 20 and 6 -- aren't all that big for the kind of attention he got. The real story was Phoenix's record, and as I already showed you, that doesn't happen without Bledsoe. That record without Bledsoe is hardly MVP worthy. And one season of 20 and 6 certainly doesn't warrant the kind of contract he wants. Five consecutive seasons of 20 and 6, maybe. Although given his age that would still be a mistake. Let's look at the career of another almost All Star PG who averaged 20 and 6 in his age 27 season, Mike Bibby:
Uh-oh
I'm sure glad we didn't sign up for his age 29-33 seasons. Does that mean Dragic will suffer a similar fate? Of course not. But there's a mountain of evidence out there which suggests giving Dragic a large contract this summer (anything over 10 million a year for 3 years) is a massive mistake. And yet some idiotic team will do it anyway because, well, they need a PG and he's a name people know.
Ha, look at last year's data. Cousins and Gay had the same usage rates as this year, and Isaiah Thomas still managed to touch the ball more than anybody else in the NBA.
And no one should be against that lineup. Outside of Ben McLemore, it was good. Now that McLemore has improved, it would be dominant.
And no one should be against that lineup. Outside of Ben McLemore, it was good. Now that McLemore has improved, it would be dominant.
What I was getting at is that you cannot say Collison and Dragic average the same numbers therefor they will give us the same type of play at PG and we would be none the better. Stats mean nothing when comparing the two players. Dragic gives you much more than Collison and I feel Dragic would make players around him better, and Collison does not.
He's a smarter player, and can make adjustments on the fly, something I don't think Collison can do as well. So basically that's what I meant by what I said. Thanks for the [sarcasm]..
G
I don't understand your question? "Is he 3 times the better player...?"
I will say this, If we acquire Goran Dragic he immediately makes this a better team and there's no disputing that. (I'm assuming he re-signs) Understandably, we'll give up assets to acquire him. Even if we lose Ben McLemore or Darren Collison, this would still be a better team.
I will say this, If we acquire Goran Dragic he immediately makes this a better team and there's no disputing that. (I'm assuming he re-signs) Understandably, we'll give up assets to acquire him. Even if we lose Ben McLemore or Darren Collison, this would still be a better team.
This is your opinion. I am clear. I do not agree at all.
Trade away some assets, hope that he resigns, then resign him at an amount 3-4 times the amount Collison would make, and he will make everybody better. Cousins and Gay should be grateful I presume. This is the act of a desperate franchise.
If he doesn't resign with us (we are not on his list of desireables), then what? We will have lost those assets and an offense that was working very well at the beginning of this year will no longer exist. It's very risky especially when we are dealing with the amorphous concept of chemistry/who can make the other players better. This cannot be determined until after the trade. Look at how IT fit in with Phoenix.
Trade away some assets, hope that he resigns, then resign him at an amount 3-4 times the amount Collison would make, and he will make everybody better. Cousins and Gay should be grateful I presume. This is the act of a desperate franchise.
If he doesn't resign with us (we are not on his list of desireables), then what? We will have lost those assets and an offense that was working very well at the beginning of this year will no longer exist. It's very risky especially when we are dealing with the amorphous concept of chemistry/who can make the other players better. This cannot be determined until after the trade. Look at how IT fit in with Phoenix.
G
Personally, Yes I would. That is the challenge that you face when you're a small market team. If you want superb talent, there are sacrifices to be made both personnel-wise and financially.
But I'm a realist and I see your perspective, you do make some great points. I see the glass half full in both situations. Keep in mind that our starting five is not what I'm concerned with. This potential trade falling through could be a blessing in disguise. If our starting had a solid bench behind them, this team could be scary.
But I'm a realist and I see your perspective, you do make some great points. I see the glass half full in both situations. Keep in mind that our starting five is not what I'm concerned with. This potential trade falling through could be a blessing in disguise. If our starting had a solid bench behind them, this team could be scary.
Sometimes less is better as well (having to give up two players for one). Dragic is a much better player than Collison. McLemore is a part of the worst SG rotation in the NBA. It's not like we could get any worse. We could sign a couple people in the offseason which would probably come in and do better than McLemore has for us.
and you are basing this on what? There have already been reports that at least la and ny would offer him a max deal.
This isn't that hard to follow. No one is arguing he wouldn't be a good addition. It's the cost (assets and space) you would sacrifice that would prevent us from fixing our problems that is the question.
This isn't that hard to follow. No one is arguing he wouldn't be a good addition. It's the cost (assets and space) you would sacrifice that would prevent us from fixing our problems that is the question.