John Salmons?

[VF21]

You might not like Iverson but no one can question how hard he plays. If that is what he said about Salmons, then Salmons is making it fairly accurate.

If you're going to elevate Iverson's word to that of carvings in stone worthy of adoration, remember he also feels practice is a total waste of time and meant only for lesser mortals.

Questioning how hard Iverson plays has less than nothing to do with the argument at hand.

 

[fnordius]

We all ripped KT a new one for having the exact same attitude.

Context matters. If Kevin Garnett has the exact same attitude, who cares? It's a moot point. KT simply didn't deserve to start, that was what made his feelings about the situation harmful, had he been our best option nobody would ever have known or cared about his gut reactions. But Salmons is showing that he's good enough to be an NBA starter. I think he listened to Reggie saying that the ones who'd get the minutes would be those who put forth the effort, and he started busting his butt. Now he's lost sight of his goal, and his play reflects it. It's very inconvenient for us, but it's human nature.

 

[bloom]

People always act so mystified, and yet that is just the way the world works. How many jobs have you had? Most people hop form one to the next looking for fulfillment...or a bigger paycheck. Or both. It is no different in the NBA. Its a job. John knows now that he has the potential to be a VP with a corner office. We are asking him to go back to the mail room. Of course he will want to go elsewhere if that persists. So would any of us in our day to day jobs. The only differing factors are the guaranteed contracts and of course large sums of money. But those only mitigate, they don't change normal human urges towards achievement.

Thanks for the analogy. I guess you’re right. I just needed to look at it a little differently.

 

[reid1boys]

Basketball is a huge mental game. If you play all out carefree, you will be effective. You can not play the game and at the same time be worried about coming out if you screw up. When Salmons was starting, he knew he was going to get big minutes, and he took over games. He did that because of his mental tenacity at that time. Now he is listening to all of the media casking how long it will be before the "Normal Starters" are back in the starting lineup. His entire mental approach has changed, and he has dropped into being a second tier player.

Now look at someone who is doing the exact opposite, Beno Udrih. He is kicking butt. he is standing up and saying , hey coach, screw that guy Bibby, I am your point gaurd. How he sat out all those minutes in Indiana is beyond me. He was the best player on the court in that game, and he was DOMINATING his man at will. No matter what happens with Beno, he is going to assert himself and not go down without a fight.

Salmons reminds of the guy in that movie "Crash." The guy that stood there and watched the cop fill up his wife with a dumb look of helplessness on his face.

I would like nothing more than to see Salmons step up and assert himself, but only 1 person can do that.

 

[Glenn]

I felt sorry for Salmons until I read the last note. Thanks, reid1boys. It IS up to him to earn his time back. Not all people fall apart when their starting position is taken away. Look at Ben Gordon or more closely, Kevin Martin.

It shouldn't be a mystery why Ron is going to take over the starting position. Theus has said you earn minutes and you earn them by defensive play. Ron plays defense. Even if Ron is misguided, there is no question he busts his butt and Theus likes that.

If this crushes Salmons' mood, then he's another that needs to be traded. I have never heard of a player becoming a starter because he'll sulk if he isn't the starter. For whatever reason, he has lost the capability of using his immense offensive skills. It's difficult to understand.

 

[dude12]

If you're going to elevate Iverson's word to that of carvings in stone worthy of adoration, remember he also feels practice is a total waste of time and meant only for lesser mortals.

Questioning how hard Iverson plays has less than nothing to do with the argument at hand.

You can't deny that Iverson plays hard? Can't say the same now about John Salmons because, apparently, he is a head case. Don't change the subject.....it is about Salmons....my post was about Salmons being less than professional or lacking the intestinal fortitude to "suck it up" for lack of better words. Type of behavior that disgusts me at the moment.

 

[fnordius]

I felt sorry for Salmons until I read the last note. Thanks, reid1boys. It IS up to him to earn his time back. Not all people fall apart when their starting position is taken away. Look at Ben Gordon or more closely, Kevin Martin.

While I fully appreciate the mixed feelings you, and most of us, are having over this subject, consider what the upshot of this is. John Salmons doesn't have the emotional stability to be a King, so we replace him with... Ron Artest?!?

 

[VF21]

You can't deny that Iverson plays hard? Can't say the same now about John Salmons because, apparently, he is a head case. Don't change the subject.....it is about Salmons....my post was about Salmons being less than professional or lacking the intestinal fortitude to "suck it up" for lack of better words. Type of behavior that disgusts me at the moment.

Whether or not Iverson plays hard has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

To me, it's a little more about expectations... Most of us had few, if any, for John Salmons. But when he was placed into the role of starter he performed admirably. With me so far?

Now, on the other hand, Ron Artest is supposed to do his very best and yet, instead, he has made it appear as though basketball is no longer a team sport and pretty much ignores his teammaters.

Salmons is in a position he's not used to being in, so for him to have some trouble adjusting is at least partially understandable - to me. If you don't agree, that's fine. Calling him a "head case," however, just doesn't seem to be supported by facts. Calling Ron Artest a "head case," on the other hand, is like calling water wet.

Have a nice evening...

 

[reid1boys]

Salmons has great PHYSICAL ability, but at this moment, he doesnt appear to have that killer instinct. Im talking about that confidence that EVERY really good player has. He must believe he is a stud. If he can get back to the player he was only a few short weeks ago, how much depth will the Kings have?


I personally would have no problems trading Artest and inserting Salmons in the starting lineup. Maybe that would be the confidence booster he needs.

I am also a big sixer fan, and when he was a sixer, he was nonexistent.
Somehow Theus has to boost him up and let him know he is important to the team. Not just dump him at the end of the bench. That would only reinforce the idea that he is not important.

 

[ESP47]

This isnt about Artest vs. Salmons. No one is saying Artest is better, worse, or more or less of a headcase. What were saying is Salmons is obviously affected in a negative way by Artest's prescense.

Salmons has been one of my favorite players all season but his attitude that shows through on the court when Artest is playing is just downright irritating. You can deny it all you want saying its an adjustment period but many of us think it obviously goes deeper than that. Salmons is a cancer to no one other than himself.

I don't even like Iverson, but just because he has done and said some silly things in the past doesn't mean that everything that comes out of his mouth isn't credible. I would have said his comment about Salmons was idiotic before this season, but Salmons is putting some credibility into Iverson's words.

 

[SLAB]

Now, on the other hand, Ron Artest is supposed to do his very best and yet, instead, he has made it appear as though basketball is no longer a team sport and pretty much ignores his teammaters.

Salmons is in a position he's not used to being in, so for him to have some trouble adjusting is at least partially understandable - to me. If you don't agree, that's fine. Calling him a "head case," however, just doesn't seem to be supported by facts. Calling Ron Artest a "head case," on the other hand, is like calling water wet.

1: Lets wait more than 3 games before we decide Ron has gone off the deep-end offensively. He was playing in Detroit and Indiana, the two places that would amp him up the most, and of course he is going to try to do too much...Everyone tries to do more against certain teams, and thats a given...Im not giving the guy a free pass because I like him, just look at where he was. If this goes on against teams we play in the future, then I might begin to worry...Not yet though.

2: Salmons is in a situation he's not used to? He's spent his entire career as a bench/non-focus of the offense type player. He should be used to the fact his role will most likely be behind someone just a little bit more talented/better than him. 3 weeks of solid starting shouldn't change what he has done his entire career, and if those three weeks do change it, he is most certainly a bit of a 'head-case'.

 

[VF21]

Salmons, to my knowledge, has not stepped into a starting role before and put up incredibly good numbers, only to be sent back to the bench. That was what my "Salmons is in a situation he's not used to" comment meant.

But whatever... you won't change your mind and I'm certainly not going to change mine.

 

[DesertFox]

I think the biggest problem, and I'm sure it's been brought up countless times before, is Artest and Salmons both need the ball to be effective. I don't think Salmons is passing up shots so much as deferring to the Artest-centered gameplan.
If Salmons and Artest both demand the ball, who is going to get it?

 

[dude12]

Whether or not Iverson plays hard has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

To me, it's a little more about expectations... Most of us had few, if any, for John Salmons. But when he was placed into the role of starter he performed admirably. With me so far?

Now, on the other hand, Ron Artest is supposed to do his very best and yet, instead, he has made it appear as though basketball is no longer a team sport and pretty much ignores his teammaters.

Salmons is in a position he's not used to being in, so for him to have some trouble adjusting is at least partially understandable - to me. If you don't agree, that's fine. Calling him a "head case," however, just doesn't seem to be supported by facts. Calling Ron Artest a "head case," on the other hand, is like calling water wet.

Have a nice evening...

In the last 3 games, Salmons has been unprofessional....do you follow me? Your continued attack on Artest for ignoring his teammates in just old. He does have his moments of one on one ball. No one disputes that. He also plays within the offense a great deal. I would say as much as Salmons, who dominates the ball at times....except when he gets into these little funks because he's not mentally tough enough to deal with some adversity , which is what this is. Artest complains openly about not starting but plays hard and Theus has no problem with this as he's stated. Salmons clams up and gives less than full-effort....even though he is starting. That is kind of hard to ignore.

 

[BuenoBeno]

Where is your proof that he is giving anything less then full effort?- Do you honestly think that he is trying to play badly? I have watched the last three games with Ron Artest and would rather have someone like John Salmons on the floor who passes the ball and creates great team chemistry then someone who just chucks the ball up everytime he gets it simply because he thinks he is the man. John Salmons is becoming one of my favorite players on this team and feel that although he hasn't had his best games of late-he may not be shooting the ball as much because he wants the other returning players to be able to get their chance with the ball. I honestly feel that with these last three games he has not been shotting the ball as much because he wants to be a team player and give others the chance to suceed- the exact opposite of a head case.

 

[VF21]

In the last 3 games, Salmons has been unprofessional....do you follow me? Your continued attack on Artest for ignoring his teammates in just old. He does have his moments of one on one ball. No one disputes that. He also plays within the offense a great deal. I would say as much as Salmons, who dominates the ball at times....except when he gets into these little funks because he's not mentally tough enough to deal with some adversity , which is what this is. Artest complains openly about not starting but plays hard and Theus has no problem with this as he's stated. Salmons clams up and gives less than full-effort....even though he is starting. That is kind of hard to ignore.

Do I follow you? Nah, I quit caring a long time ago. Have a nice evening.

 

[DesertFox]

In the last 3 games, Salmons has been unprofessional....do you follow me? Your continued attack on Artest for ignoring his teammates in just old. He does have his moments of one on one ball. No one disputes that. He also plays within the offense a great deal. I would say as much as Salmons, who dominates the ball at times....except when he gets into these little funks because he's not mentally tough enough to deal with some adversity , which is what this is. Artest complains openly about not starting but plays hard and Theus has no problem with this as he's stated. Salmons clams up and gives less than full-effort....even though he is starting. That is kind of hard to ignore.

What is less than full effort? Salmons defense and other non-scoring stats are unchanged. All of Salmons new value comes form his ability to score. His scoring depends on having the ball and doing things himself.
When he doesn't have the ball as much, (ie with Artest, and to a lesser extent Bibby & Martin) he can't score like he has been.
Salmons can't use his "full effort" to drive to the hoop when he doesn't have the ball. At least he's not trying to jack up shots (definitely not his strength) to get his points in, instead waiting for his (now fewer) opportunities.

 

[CruzDude]

Personally I like John. I think he is a damn good player when starting. I think he fits the team better than Artest does. But we all know I don't like Artest sooooo..

I'll say "..........we don't like Artest sooooo."

I think John improved immensely in the 20 some games he started. He has talent and some players need to start to get into a flow. Others, like Cisco, can come off the bench and be instant energy (remember BJax or Jon Barry?).

John is also a good defender and can get 4-5 assists along with 15-20 pts and some steals and fast breaks. He is infinitely more coachable than Artest too.

 

[dude12]

What is less than full effort? Salmons defense and other non-scoring stats are unchanged. All of Salmons new value comes form his ability to score. His scoring depends on having the ball and doing things himself.
When he doesn't have the ball as much, (ie with Artest, and to a lesser extent Bibby & Martin) he can't score like he has been.
Salmons can't use his "full effort" to drive to the hoop when he doesn't have the ball. At least he's not trying to jack up shots (definitely not his strength) to get his points in, instead waiting for his (now fewer) opportunities.

I guess your not watching the games.

 

[BuenoBeno]

What is less than full effort? Salmons defense and other non-scoring stats are unchanged. All of Salmons new value comes form his ability to score. His scoring depends on having the ball and doing things himself.
When he doesn't have the ball as much, (ie with Artest, and to a lesser extent Bibby & Martin) he can't score like he has been.
Salmons can't use his "full effort" to drive to the hoop when he doesn't have the ball. At least he's not trying to jack up shots (definitely not his strength) to get his points in, instead waiting for his (now fewer) opportunities.

I completely agree

 

[fnordius]

I found the debate around Salmons' non-shooting stats to be interesting, and wondered what they really looked like. So here are his non-shooting stats per 48 for the season, and for the last 3 games. There is a bit of a decline, but it's not very big, and his blocking has been better than usual.

.............reb....asst....stl....blk
Before....8.4....5.8....2.3....0.8
After......6.5.....5.3....1.4....2.0

 

[VF21]

Hrm. Interesting indeed. Thanks for looking them up.

 

[Elektrik]

It shouldn't be a mystery why Ron is going to take over the starting position. Theus has said you earn minutes and you earn them by defensive play. Ron plays defense. Even if Ron is misguided, there is no question he busts his butt and Theus likes that. .

John plays defense too. But another reason Ron is starting is because in order for him to be traded, his talent has to be showcased in a starting role. Starters guard the other teams best players. This cant be done effectively if he is coming off the bench. If we were to keep him as a bench player then wouldn't the team we were trying to deal him to consider only trading bench players as well? As a general rule, Starters get starters in a trade and bench players get bench players.

 

[ESP47]

Yeah but does Artest really need to be showcased? It's already pretty well known what he can do. Usually new up and comers or guy's who dont get a lot of playing time are the ones that need to be showcased.

dude12, im with you. Not giving a full effort is going 0-2 when you've taken 10+ shots a game for the last month or so. Thats just one of many examples.

 

[mac]

I've always supported Artest but honestly speaking the last 2 games has got me going "TAKE HIM OUT FOR GOODNESS SAKE". I'm not so concerned with the players individually but rather the change of style that has taken place. If not having Artest and having salmons means we move the ball better and all then by all means put Salmons in. IMO both of them hog the ball quite a bit.

Before getting injured Artest was effectively drawing DTs and passing out to open scorers. Salmons also played well as a starter.

So... just depends on how the flow of the offence goes in the next few games.

 

[treewoman]

Basketball is a huge mental game. If you play all out carefree, you will be effective. You can not play the game and at the same time be worried about coming out if you screw up. When Salmons was starting, he knew he was going to get big minutes, and he took over games. He did that because of his mental tenacity at that time. His entire mental approach has changed, and he has dropped into being a second tier player.

I would like nothing more than to see Salmons step up and assert himself, but only 1 person can do that.

This is pretty much exactly how I felt when I started this post. One of the things that really fasinates me about basketball is the "mental status" and effect it has on players.

Rather then Kenny Thomas, in my mind, John's current funk is more like Peja's - an excellent player who allowed his emotions to rule him. Peja appeared very unhappy here at the end and his game really suffered for it.

I think John can be an excellent player, he has game, he just needs to overcome the limitations he is mentally placing on himself. To me this isn't about John vs Ron it's more about John vs John.

 

[dude12]

dude12, im with you. Not giving a full effort is going 0-2 when you've taken 10+ shots a game for the last month or so. Thats just one of many examples.

Yep....I see it....he's passing up shots and being very passive on offense.

 

[dude12]

I think John can be an excellent player, he has game, he just needs to overcome the limitations he is mentally placing on himself. To me this isn't about John vs Ron it's more about John vs John.

Well said.

 

[beb0p]

People always act so mystified, and yet that is just the way the world works. How many jobs have you had? Most people hop form one to the next looking for fulfillment...or a bigger paycheck. Or both. It is no different in the NBA. Its a job. John knows now that he has the potential to be a VP with a corner office. We are asking him to go back to the mail room. Of course he will want to go elsewhere if that persists. So would any of us in our day to day jobs. The only differing factors are the guaranteed contracts and of course large sums of money. But those only mitigate, they don't change normal human urges towards achievement.

But in the real world, if you know the VP with the corner office is leaving in three months and you're next in line, you usually stay.

In basketball terms, if Salmons really want to go to another team where he can show his stuff, that team must have two non-postup bigs to clear the lane for him, and a SG/SF who doesn't demand the ball so he can get the touches. That rules out 90% of the teams in the NBA.

But if I'm Salmons' agent, here's what I'd tell him: Your two biggest problems (Bibby and Artest taking shots and/or mins away from you) are being actively shopped. By next year, you'll be the undisputed starter. You're playing in a system that's perfect for you. Your team thinks very highly of you. So what's the problem?

Bottom line is, I don't think Salmons wants to leave Sac. He just wants to start. Which is not an excuse for him not playing up to his standard, but it's not going to be a problem by next season. Which is to say this is just a lot of hoopla about nothing.