John Hollinger Article On ESPN.com

[annihilator_33]

John Hollinger just came out with an insider article on espn titled "Meet the NBA's ball hogs", the list he came up with consists of:
Michael Beasley, Andres Nocioni, Kris Humphries, Larry Hughes, Al Harrington, Ersan Ilyasova, Trevor Ariza, Monta Ellis, Rasheed Wallace, Gilbert Arenas, Al Jefferson, T.J. Ford, J.R. Smith, Janero Pargo................Tyreke Evans

Hollinger basically says evans might be one of the most frustrating teammates in the league and goes on to say that he passes only as a last resort.

I've never been a fan of Hollinger's PER system or whatever the hell it is......

 

[rhythmless]

Im a fan of Hollinger's stats, and I know a lot of people are. The same methodology that nabbed Nocioni as a chucker (which we have admitted here) is the same one to get Tyreke. Being that a lot of these guys are definitely chuckers, perhaps you shouldn't look to disparage him because our Golden Child is on the list, and look to why he is on the list in the first place.

One reason is that Tyreke has a horrible fg% outside of his drives, yet he still takes a fair amount (definitely more than he should) of shots outside. Barring the last game, his outside shot is nonexistant. If you read Hollinger's methodology, he's picking on those who have a low shooting percentage, but take a lot of shots (probably per possession to account for the guys who aren't in there too much, but jack up a lot of shots when they are). Tyreke has a low fg% due to his outside shots. He is the focal point of our offense, so he takes a lot of shots. It's pretty evident.

Once he improves his jump shot and 3 pt%, he'll be dropped from this list.

 

[sactownfan]

I thought the fact Noc made the list was funny.... he is officially almost done as a basketball player...

as far as Evans goes... Yes he held the ball to long a lot early in the year and didn't look to pass that often... but he has really improved over the year...

also no one on our team other than Beno and Landry can be counted on for offense... Plus Evans is clearly our go to guy and best player... he should be looking to take the shot, or at least feeling it out early in the shot clock... his assists numbers have been rising all year... I think all Evans needs is some teammates that have a better understanding on how to cut and move, or how bout teammates that can knock down open jumpers consistently.

No way anyone could be upset with Evans for his playing style most of the year...

hes not John Salmons or Artest.... Salmons never looked to pass and was not anywhere as good as Evans... same with Artest

 

[Larry David]

Im a fan of Hollinger's stats, and I know a lot of people are. The same methodology that nabbed Nocioni as a chucker (which we have admitted here) is the same one to get Tyreke. Being that a lot of these guys are definitely chuckers, perhaps you shouldn't look to disparage him because our Golden Child is on the list, and look to why he is on the list in the first place.

One reason is that Tyreke has a horrible fg% outside of his drives, yet he still takes a fair amount (definitely more than he should) of shots outside. Barring the last game, his outside shot is nonexistant. If you read Hollinger's methodology, he's picking on those who have a low shooting percentage, but take a lot of shots (probably per possession to account for the guys who aren't in there too much, but jack up a lot of shots when they are). Tyreke has a low fg% due to his outside shots. He is the focal point of our offense, so he takes a lot of shots. It's pretty evident.

Once he improves his jump shot and 3 pt%, he'll be dropped from this list.

That’s very well said and thought out. A logical bridge between valid criticism of Tyreke game and homers with rose-colored glasses. Of course, that’s not going to stop a lot of people here from ignoring that logic, killing the messenger, railing about an ESPN bias, and nibbling at the edges of a sound argument. But I’m glad you tried.

 

[Superman]

I can think of a couple of plays in the San Antonio game where Tyreke drove too hard and got his shot blocked or couldn't make the layup, and had open teammates. I think it's kind of dumb to call him a ball hog, but he definitely misses his guys sometimes. Once he develops a midrange jumper, he'll stop over-penetrating.

 

[Löwenherz]

He's right; Evans is forced into Last Resort-type situations about 5.8 times a game

 

[annihilator_33]

Im a fan of Hollinger's stats, and I know a lot of people are. The same methodology that nabbed Nocioni as a chucker (which we have admitted here) is the same one to get Tyreke. Being that a lot of these guys are definitely chuckers, perhaps you shouldn't look to disparage him because our Golden Child is on the list, and look to why he is on the list in the first place.

One reason is that Tyreke has a horrible fg% outside of his drives, yet he still takes a fair amount (definitely more than he should) of shots outside. Barring the last game, his outside shot is nonexistant. If you read Hollinger's methodology, he's picking on those who have a low shooting percentage, but take a lot of shots (probably per possession to account for the guys who aren't in there too much, but jack up a lot of shots when they are). Tyreke has a low fg% due to his outside shots. He is the focal point of our offense, so he takes a lot of shots. It's pretty evident.

Once he improves his jump shot and 3 pt%, he'll be dropped from this list.

Nice breakdown, I guess I got a little defensive about evans being on the list without analyzing the logic hollinger was bringing to the table

 

[pdxKingsFan]

If this were his 3rd or 4th year I'd be a little concerned. Yes he forces things, but he's not the kind of guy like Stephon Marbury where he'll throw the team under the bus for personal glory. I think he may be swept into the hype of the ROY chase which is obviously important to the franchise at least as much as it is to him. Arguably more so. At worst you could compare him to AI without the off court attitude. As his game matures and the team around him improves I will be shocked if this is still an issue.

 

[Superman]

Right, he's never gonna be Steve Nash, but he will be better at getting his teammates involved as his game matures. The Year Two Leap is what I'm looking forward to at this point, and having a consistent jumper is going to completely transform his game.

 

[rhythmless]

I can think of a couple of plays in the San Antonio game where Tyreke drove too hard and got his shot blocked or couldn't make the layup, and had open teammates. I think it's kind of dumb to call him a ball hog, but he definitely misses his guys sometimes. Once he develops a midrange jumper, he'll stop over-penetrating.

There are a few times where Tyreke really struggles against long mobile shotblockers. He usually uses his body to seal off his own man, but being that he plays under the rim a lot, shotblockers have more time since his release point is below the rim. Layups leave the ball unprotected more than a good 2 hand stuff, so there is more time to gauge the point of release.

Definitely needs a midrange. That, coupled with a pick & roll will draw the center out, needing him to show harder on the screen. This gives him, and his teammates more opportunities.

As for passing ala Salmons and Artest, Tyreke draws much more attention, making his passes all the more easy. You can tell that Tyreke doesn't have elite vision (at this pint). He really just passes out because theres so many bodies in the paint. SOMEONE's gotta be open.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Im a fan of Hollinger's stats, and I know a lot of people are. The same methodology that nabbed Nocioni as a chucker (which we have admitted here) is the same one to get Tyreke. Being that a lot of these guys are definitely chuckers, perhaps you shouldn't look to disparage him because our Golden Child is on the list, and look to why he is on the list in the first place.

One reason is that Tyreke has a horrible fg% outside of his drives, yet he still takes a fair amount (definitely more than he should) of shots outside. Barring the last game, his outside shot is nonexistant. If you read Hollinger's methodology, he's picking on those who have a low shooting percentage, but take a lot of shots (probably per possession to account for the guys who aren't in there too much, but jack up a lot of shots when they are). Tyreke has a low fg% due to his outside shots. He is the focal point of our offense, so he takes a lot of shots. It's pretty evident.

Once he improves his jump shot and 3 pt%, he'll be dropped from this list.

True. Super true. But yeah, he's a first year player who is used to being the dominant go to guy on his team, and he had a penchant for tunnel vision for most of the year. He seems to have gotten much better as the season wore on though. Trust your teammates, Kobe!

Raising a beer to his offseason. Already knowing he's gonna come back stud-tacular.

 

[ZZ-TOP]

John Hollinger just came out with an insider article on espn titled "Meet the NBA's ball hogs", the list he came up with consists of:
Michael Beasley, Andres Nocioni, Kris Humphries, Larry Hughes, Al Harrington, Ersan Ilyasova, Trevor Ariza, Monta Ellis, Rasheed Wallace, Gilbert Arenas, Al Jefferson, T.J. Ford, J.R. Smith, Janero Pargo................Tyreke Evans

Hollinger basically says evans might be one of the most frustrating teammates in the league and goes on to say that he passes only as a last resort.

I've never been a fan of Hollinger's PER system or whatever the hell it is......

ZZ-TOP, Phil Jackson, John Hollinger...what a pathetic bunch of ignorant morons.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

John Hollinger just came out with an insider article on espn titled "Meet the NBA's ball hogs", the list he came up with consists of:
Michael Beasley, Andres Nocioni, Kris Humphries, Larry Hughes, Al Harrington, Ersan Ilyasova, Trevor Ariza, Monta Ellis, Rasheed Wallace, Gilbert Arenas, Al Jefferson, T.J. Ford, J.R. Smith, Janero Pargo................Tyreke Evans

Hollinger basically says evans might be one of the most frustrating teammates in the league and goes on to say that he passes only as a last resort.

I wonder what career assist percentage says about this list of players? (Assist percentage is an estimate of the number of teammate FGs - assisted or unassisted - that the player assisted on. It turns out that the leaguewide average value should be about 14.1.)

Humphries: 5.9
Ilyasova: 7.6
A. Jefferson: 7.6
Beasley: 8.5
Nocioni: 8.7
R. Wallace: 9.7
A. Harrington: 10.3
Ariza: 11.8
J.R. Smith: 14.2
Hughes: 17.9
Ellis: 18.1
Pargo: 21.8
Evans: 26.3
Arenas: 27.1
T.J. Ford: 34.5

Wow. Evans sure looks like a "chucker", all right. Now, I didn't get a chance to see the article (because I'm not enough of a sucker to pay for ESPN's Insider material - ha!) but let's even take into account the fact that Evans shoots a lot.

Usg% suggests that Tyreke is the last player to touch the ball on 26% of the team's possessions. We play 94 possessions/game, so Evans "uses" 24.5 possessions a game (including TOs) and is responsible for 20.0 + (at least) 11.6 (5.8 ast/game * 2) = 31.6 points = 1.29 points per "chuck".

What about a guy like Brandon Jennings, who does kind of look like a "chucker"? Usage of 26.1%, uses 24.0 possessions per game (91.9 poss/game), is responsible for 15.4 + 11.6 = 27.0 points = 1.13 points per "chuck". Hmm, not as good as Tyreke.

Jennings shoots .370 while Tyreke shoots .455. They have the same assists/game. And Hollinger is telling me that Evans is the chucker? OK, dude.

 

[rhythmless]

Usg% suggests that Tyreke is the last player to touch the ball on 26% of the team's possessions. We play 94 possessions/game, so Evans "uses" 24.5 possessions a game (including TOs) and is responsible for 20.0 + (at least) 11.6 (5.8 ast/game * 2) = 31.6 points = 1.29 points per "chuck".

What about a guy like Brandon Jennings, who does kind of look like a "chucker"? Usage of 26.1%, uses 24.0 possessions per game (91.9 poss/game), is responsible for 15.4 + 11.6 = 27.0 points = 1.13 points per "chuck". Hmm, not as good as Tyreke.

Jennings shoots .370 while Tyreke shoots .455. They have the same assists/game. And Hollinger is telling me that Evans is the chucker? OK, dude.

You are leaving out scenarios. For instance, if Tyreke holds the ball for 20 seconds, then passes it out for a shot that does not go in, this is not accounted for at all in your calculation. You take into account his possessions and points ratio, and calculated his possession of the ball that resulted in assists, but not possession of the ball that resulted in non assists.

As for Insider, they are actually paying me, so no issue here.

 

[Kingsguy881]

I wonder what career assist percentage says about this list of players? (Assist percentage is an estimate of the number of teammate FGs - assisted or unassisted - that the player assisted on. It turns out that the leaguewide average value should be about 14.1.)

Humphries: 5.9
Ilyasova: 7.6
A. Jefferson: 7.6
Beasley: 8.5
Nocioni: 8.7
R. Wallace: 9.7
A. Harrington: 10.3
Ariza: 11.8
J.R. Smith: 14.2
Hughes: 17.9
Ellis: 18.1
Pargo: 21.8
Evans: 26.3
Arenas: 27.1
T.J. Ford: 34.5

Wow. Evans sure looks like a "chucker", all right. Now, I didn't get a chance to see the article (because I'm not enough of a sucker to pay for ESPN's Insider material - ha!) but let's even take into account the fact that Evans shoots a lot.

Usg% suggests that Tyreke is the last player to touch the ball on 26% of the team's possessions. We play 94 possessions/game, so Evans "uses" 24.5 possessions a game (including TOs) and is responsible for 20.0 + (at least) 11.6 (5.8 ast/game * 2) = 31.6 points = 1.29 points per "chuck".

What about a guy like Brandon Jennings, who does kind of look like a "chucker"? Usage of 26.1%, uses 24.0 possessions per game (91.9 poss/game), is responsible for 15.4 + 11.6 = 27.0 points = 1.13 points per "chuck". Hmm, not as good as Tyreke.

Jennings shoots .370 while Tyreke shoots .455. They have the same assists/game. And Hollinger is telling me that Evans is the chucker? OK, dude.

Dude....your posts are the best. Very informative and a helluva way to refute what the 'expert' Hollinger says.

 

[mr. moustache]

I love Tyreke, but 50% of the time on a fast break the ball doesn't leave his hands. Surprisingly often, that decision doesn't hurt the team because he'll make a contested layup, but it's got to bug those guys flanking him the entire break.

And yes, with Tyreke at PG, we effectively have a 16s shot clock. The first 8s is just bounce, bounce, bounce.

Am I thrilled with him as a player, even with these faults? Yes. He'll definitely improve, but it wouldn't shock me if his teammates weren't a little frustrated at times.

You are leaving out scenarios. For instance, if Tyreke holds the ball for 20 seconds, then passes it out for a shot that does not go in, this is not accounted for at all in your calculation. You take into account his possessions and points ratio, and calculated his possession of the ball that resulted in assists, but not possession of the ball that resulted in non assists.

 

[One and Done]

You hope that Evans either improves his jump shot or eventually defers to better-shooting teammates down the road.

If he develops a jump shot, heaven help the opposing team. If he doesn't, you hope he learns to pass more...

 

[rhythmless]

Oh, I checked on JEnning's TS%, since it was referenced by Hollinger that TS% vs Usg% was what doomed Tyreke. Jennings' TS% is far lower than Tyreke's, and his Usg% higher, so by these metrics, Jennings is a chucker as well. Agree w/you about Jennings, Capt.

The only thing higher for Jennings is assist ratio, which he is ranked 48/67, while Tyreke is 58/67. Perhaps more weight is being put on ast ratio b/c that's a metric of getting others involved?

 

[rhythmless]

I love Tyreke, but 50% of the time on a fast break the ball doesn't leave his hands. Surprisingly often, that decision doesn't hurt the team because he'll make a contested layup, but it's got to bug those guys flanking him the entire break.

And yes, with Tyreke at PG, we effectively have a 16s shot clock. The first 8s is just bounce, bounce, bounce.

Am I thrilled with him as a player, even with these faults? Yes. He'll definitely improve, but it wouldn't shock me if his teammates weren't a little frustrated at times.

I actually deleted that b/c I was wrong, Capt. Factorial's analysis did take that into acct by usage of asst ratio.

 

[Bricklayer]

Ah, the accountant strikes a again. Hollinger's problem has always been that he knows stats, not basketball, so much so that his great claim to basketball fame is actually making up his own stat and proselytizing it. (which is a good scam I wish I had thought of first -- didn't say he wasn't clever).

You guys continue to debate it, I'll take my normal stance on all things Hollinger and just dismiss it.

 

[sactownfan]

Ah, the accountant strikes a again. Hollinger's problem has always been that he knows stats, not basketball, so much so that his great claim to basketball fame is actually making up his own stat and proselytizing it. (which is a good scam I wish I had thought of first -- didn't say he wasn't clever).

You guys continue to debate it, I'll take my normal stance on all things Hollinger and just dismiss it.

totally agree.... in the article hes says about Evans-- "he might be one of the most frustrating teammates in the league."

Laughable !!! pure garbage.... how about Hawes? or JT? or Casspi's meltdown? or Greene's consistency? or the fact that another ball hog from Hollinger's list is on this team? (NOC)

if i were Evans i'd be frustrated with everyone else to some degree...

but most importantly Evans plays both offense and defense, he always gives 100% and he isn't about stats or his own personal glory... he is a team player thats learning to play at the NBA level and his supporting cast isn't great... We all know his teammates dont think hes frustrating... he has improved so much at passing this year and will continue to improve going forward... he's TYREKE EVANS not STEVE NASH

 

[Kings Faithful]

Evans is a ball hog in the same way that Lebron and Kobe are ball hogs... because it makes our team better. I don't give a damn if Evans is a ball hog or not because it makes our team better when he is taking it to the rack rather than Andres NociOHNOi, or Ime Uchokea. Evans may not be Steve Nash, but he could easly average 7-9 apg if he had teamates who could make shots and were worth passing to. True ball hogs usually have a messiah complex attitude that accompanies it, Evans doesn't have that attitude and doesn't deserve the title in my opinion, especially this early on in his career and in his situation. This is just another worthless attempt to steal away some votes from Evans ROY campaign. I swear, if Evans doesn't win... I will never look at another NBA award with legitimacy.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Oh, I checked on JEnning's TS%, since it was referenced by Hollinger that TS% vs Usg% was what doomed Tyreke. Jennings' TS% is far lower than Tyreke's, and his Usg% higher, so by these metrics, Jennings is a chucker as well. Agree w/you about Jennings, Capt.

The only thing higher for Jennings is assist ratio, which he is ranked 48/67, while Tyreke is 58/67. Perhaps more weight is being put on ast ratio b/c that's a metric of getting others involved?

Well, Jennings' Ast% is 30.0, which isn't so terribly far from Evans' 26.3, so I doubt that in and of itself should be enough to classify Jennings as a non-chucker. I have no idea why or how Hollinger came to the conclusion that Evans was and Jennings wasn't.

As far as taking your point about taking scenarios into account goes, that stuff is completely subjective. I'm not going to attempt to quantify it, I'm content to just work with the numbers that are there. But I would suggest (subjectively!) that I think that form the point of view of "offensive flow", Evans has improved from the beginning of the season.

 

[rhythmless]

Well, Jennings' Ast% is 30.0, which isn't so terribly far from Evans' 26.3, so I doubt that in and of itself should be enough to classify Jennings as a non-chucker. I have no idea why or how Hollinger came to the conclusion that Evans was and Jennings wasn't.

As far as taking your point about taking scenarios into account goes, that stuff is completely subjective. I'm not going to attempt to quantify it, I'm content to just work with the numbers that are there. But I would suggest (subjectively!) that I think that form the point of view of "offensive flow", Evans has improved from the beginning of the season.

Hollinger mentioned that part of the reason is watching Evans play. He states that Evans looks to score at all times, while looking for teammates comes as a last resort. So he does add in subjective analysis along w/his stats.

As for offensive flow, I definitely agree that Tyreke has improved. That's all we really can ask for at this point; identifying weaknesses, and taking steps to rectify them.

 

[swisshh]

Tyreke has improved his offensive patience and his willingness to pass at times, but its still one of his weaknesses. He doesn't have an aggressive passing mode in which he can attack through passing. If he's passing, he is normally playing passively. The same way he becomes passive playing without the ball. It's like if he isn't dribbling the ball then he has no offensive awareness going on in his head. One of the reasons his passes are almost always late, which really can't show in Hollinger's beloved stats, but which even Tyreke PR people admit to.

 

[bajaden]

ZZ-TOP, Phil Jackson, John Hollinger...what a pathetic bunch of ignorant morons.

Self depreciation will get you nowhere..

 

[rainmaker]

Hollinger is a bafoon. I lose respect for ESPN by the week.

Yes, Tyreke pounds the ball too much sometimes. So does every rookie pg. He has gotten better at creating for teammates the 2nd half of the season. He still is an inconsistent playmaker, but part of it, is being surrounded by the most inconsistent shooters in the league. Is there a more inconsistent group of wings in the nba than Donte, Omri, Noc, and Ime? Add to that the inconsistent play of JT and Spencer all season, it's no wonder it has taken Tyreke a little time to trust them and create for them on a regular basis. Beno, Landry, and Tyreke are seriously the only guys we have who can have more than one good game in a row.

 

[ZZ-TOP]

Self depreciation will get you nowhere..

But I have a sneaky feeling that all 3 of them are making some money out of game of basketball.

 

[Chupacabra]

Tyreke has improved his offensive patience and his willingness to pass at times, but its still one of his weaknesses. He doesn't have an aggressive passing mode in which he can attack through passing. If he's passing, he is normally playing passively. The same way he becomes passive playing without the ball. It's like if he isn't dribbling the ball then he has no offensive awareness going on in his head. One of the reasons his passes are almost always late, which really can't show in Hollinger's beloved stats, but which even Tyreke PR people admit to.

I chose to edit this post and make it more contructive and friendly. swisshh, are you at all capable of pointing out what Evans is good at and focusing on those things?

 

[ESP47]

Tyreke has improved his offensive patience and his willingness to pass at times, but its still one of his weaknesses. He doesn't have an aggressive passing mode in which he can attack through passing. If he's passing, he is normally playing passively. The same way he becomes passive playing without the ball. It's like if he isn't dribbling the ball then he has no offensive awareness going on in his head. One of the reasons his passes are almost always late, which really can't show in Hollinger's beloved stats, but which even Tyreke PR people admit to.

What does it matter? If he can shoot .450+ then I want him shooting more than his teammates at the moment. Because right now other than Landry and to a much lesser extent Beno...everyone else on this team is ridiculously inconsistant. This team has two guys who can shoot in Beno and Garcia. One guy who can finish down low in Landry and one guy who can get to the rim and finish in Evans. Everyone elses offense cannot be relied upon. So if one of those 4 guys is taking a lot of shots and shooting at a good clip, then thats what the team needs right now.