Joerger

[ockingsfan]

Not nearly the same thing. Not a perfect example, but I'd liken them closer to the Mark Jackson Warriors to the Steve Kerr Warriors. Jeff Fischer was grossly misusing a pretty talented roster while McCvay has maximized the talents of a very talented roster.

Evaluating Joerger is a bit tough, because I think he's pretty clearly not using our talent correctly and trying to jam a round peg into a square hole (his offense). On the flip side though, we're an insanely young team with very little experience together where WCS is the only guy Joerger has had his entire tenure with the Kings. So I think it's fair to say he's not putting our young guys in a good position to develop, but also fair to say that we aren't some 50 win team waiting to happen if we had the right coach.

At that point before last years NFL season, besides Todd Gurley, the Rams were considered pretty devoid of talent. Sure, they had Jared Goff, but he looked clueless on the field his rookie season, people were calling him a bust already.

In steps in a new coach and turned it around in one season by taking his players and playing to their strength. McVay said so himself, "He concentrated on what his players could do well, instead of harping on what they couldn't do, and put his players in their best position to succeed."

I'm not saying that a new coach could change the Kings into a 50 win team, but Coach Joeger has to start putting the young guys in a position where they can best utilize their talents. The Kings are filled with top 10 draft talent. They should start showing some progress in their fundamentals and undestanding of the game this season. They need to show consistent effort and progress this season. If they don't, that is on the coach.

 

[ppine]

"Physically, we’re at a deficit. We’re smaller, shorter and not as strong.” - D. Joerger

https://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/article219907650.html#storylink=cpy

I think I've heard enough of that excuse. If being bigger was the answer, then where is Papa when you need him? This team is an athletic, quick, and fast team. Instead of focusing on what you don't have - a Gobert or a Steven Adams - focus on what you do have and utilize it properly.

The Kings roster is full of guys 6'10'' and bigger. They have failed in their strength training if the Coach is right.

 

[Gguod]

Just fire this guy already. Two years and the same outdated offense he runs. Joeger will not be a long term answer anyway so whenever the right guy is available, pull the trigger Vlade. Two years and the same excuses. "We will be more uptempo next year", "we are so young" ect. Same old bullcrap and he has shown very little ability to scheme around the teams strengths and weaknesses. I've gone more in depth in Joegers bad offensive scheme in other threads so I'm not gonna do it here but he hasnt changed in two years and one preseason, no reason to keep him here any longer than necessary.

 

[dude12]

I think a lot of people are drinking the,kool aid that the “Joerger runs an archaic offense” crowd is pushing.......because it must be that.....right?

 

[Kingster]

I think we need to be fair. What Joerger was alluding to is that the Kings came out lazy and lackadaisical against a very good team when they had talked in the locker room that they needed to come out ready and firing to have any chance against them. He was saying the Kings already has a size disadvantage against this big team and on top of that, they came out and played like they just did an overtime shift at the lumber yard.

I don't really care for Joerger but I agree with him 100% on last night's effort. It was simply non-existent. The Jazz outrebounded the Kings 51 to 34. That's just a lack of effort. Period. WCS grabbed 3 rebounds. Skal grabbed 2 rebounds. Each had around 20 mins of play. Hield can't seem to fight through screens anymore and I don't know what Yogi Ferrell was doing.

One play in particular really irked me. A Kings guard lost the ball at the top of key in the Jazz's half and raced back trying to defend the Jazz player in a breakaway. When the ball was lost, all the Kings players just stopped, including WCS, who was at the top of the key and could have made a play if he just ran back to the Kings' basket. But Gobert (WCS's defender) about five feet further away from the Kings' basket than WCS, raced toward the Kings' basket and received a nice pass and an easy dunk, while WCS just stood and watched. If anyone deserved to take a play off at that moment, it'd be Gobert - the player with nothing to prove and his team up by 50, but it was he who hustled and the young King looking for a big payday who was slacking off.

I know this team is raw, young, and learning; but at least show us some effort, will y'all? It looks to me Bagley and fringe guys like Weyen were the only ones ready to play and I think it shows when you look at the boxscore. I think it's time we hold players accountable too. I can accept a losing team that hustles. But if this kind of effort is the norm, then forgetaboutit. I got better things to waste my time on.
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All of which is fine. But why in heck didn't they come out of the gate pressuring in the back court with the wings at the 3 point line? It's either they willfully disregarded the coach who might have (or not) told them to do so, or they didn't get the message because it was not sent. If it wasn't sent, then why the heck wasn't it? And if was sent and the players disregarded it, then in the first 30 seconds he should have called a TO and reamed them, or just substituted 5 new players into the game. We saw far too much of this non-pressure defense last year to make me believe that it was the players' idea.

 

[swisshh]

The roster requires a different system. The Kings will get bumped around. That's why you use the trade-off of speed and length.

It's not Joerger's fault overall, but he doesn't seem to grow or adapt as a coach.

Here's another thing that has become obvious: Joerger's offense is passive and democratic to a fault. By democratic, I mean they just go through the motions and nobody is aimed to dominate. Whenever the Kings face a team where one of their players has a clear advantage against the other team, they hardly ever attack that advantage. If it's a slower PG or big, they do not go to a high PnR to expose the defensive weakness. They just run the same thing regardless, ignoring any advantage they have.

There's just complete detachment from reality from the top down with the organization.

 

[joemama]

If he wants to bench Stein and play KK instead, fine with me. It's so frustrating to watch him shrivel when he plays good centers.

I'm sooooo glad more are starting to make observations like this. Hopefully more on the kings side are making the same observations.

 

[Kingster]

I'm sooooo glad more are starting to make observations like this. Hopefully more on the kings side are making the same observations.

My guess is the front office and the coach know what WCS is all about, but they are "hoping" and giving him every benefit of the doubt to prove them wrong, just like a lot fans on this board. Personally, I'm done with him. No way do I sacrifice minutes of Bagley, Giles, or KK for WCS. I'd put him as an 8th or 9th man and then tell him he's got to prove he's a player in the few minutes that he's used.

 

[regularkingsfan]

I think we need to be fair. What Joerger was alluding to is that the Kings came out lazy and lackadaisical against a very good team when they had talked in the locker room that they needed to come out ready and firing to have any chance against them. He was saying the Kings already has a size disadvantage against this big team and on top of that, they came out and played like they just did an overtime shift at the lumber yard.

I don't really care for Joerger but I agree with him 100% on last night's effort. It was simply non-existent. The Jazz outrebounded the Kings 51 to 34. That's just a lack of effort. Period. WCS grabbed 3 rebounds. Skal grabbed 2 rebounds. Each had around 20 mins of play. Hield can't seem to fight through screens anymore and I don't know what Yogi Ferrell was doing.

One play in particular really irked me. A Kings guard lost the ball at the top of key in the Jazz's half and raced back trying to defend the Jazz player in a breakaway. When the ball was lost, all the Kings players just stopped, including WCS, who was at the top of the key and could have made a play if he just ran back to the Kings' basket. But Gobert (WCS's defender) about five feet further away from the Kings' basket than WCS, raced toward the Kings' basket and received a nice pass and an easy dunk, while WCS just stood and watched. If anyone deserved to take a play off at that moment, it'd be Gobert - the player with nothing to prove and his team up by 50, but it was he who hustled and the young King looking for a big payday who was slacking off.

I know this team is raw, young, and learning; but at least show us some effort, will y'all? It looks to me Bagley and fringe guys like Weyen were the only ones ready to play and I think it shows when you look at the boxscore. I think it's time we hold players accountable too. I can accept a losing team that hustles. But if this kind of effort is the norm, then forgetaboutit. I got better things to waste my time on.
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It was Bagley who was at the top of the key. The play was the Fox and Bagley pick and roll and Fox got pickpocketed by Rubio. WCS was in the Jazz's restricted area when the ball was turnover.

 

[Cojc]

If Willie pulls his disappearance act on defense the last game of preseason BENCH him immediately.
Let him know that player we first saw chasing down and blocking shots is who we want and not someone who’s only offense is feeds for dunks.

 

[beb0p]

All of which is fine. But why in heck didn't they come out of the gate pressuring in the back court with the wings at the 3 point line? It's either they willfully disregarded the coach who might have (or not) told them to do so, or they didn't get the message because it was not sent. If it wasn't sent, then why the heck wasn't it? And if was sent and the players disregarded it, then in the first 30 seconds he should have called a TO and reamed them, or just substituted 5 new players into the game. We saw far too much of this non-pressure defense last year to make me believe that it was the players' idea.

At the post game conference, this is what Joerger said:

Tough night for us, didn't come out and play with force... again.
.....
You have to come out and play right from the jump. We've talked about it..... You have to do your work early - try to push team around and try to pressure them out on the floor....


It sounds like pressuring was the game plan and they players simply didn't do it. Why didn't Joerger called a timeout? Who knows. Maybe he was already screaming from the sideline to do it. Maybe he wanted to let the players play through it. Maybe he wanted to send them a message of how ugly it gets when orders aren't followed. Maybe there were so many mistakes he waited until he could address them all at once. Maybe he told the team before the game he would not nitpick until the tipping point. Maybe he didn't think micromanaging would work. Who knows. There are many ways to coach.

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[kb02]

I think a lot of people are drinking the,kool aid that the “Joerger runs an archaic offense” crowd is pushing.......because it must be that.....right?

I don't mind the offense that the Kings are trying to implement. It was beautiful during the 02 run. It'll take time to implement and to find the right pieces for the offense. I believe we have the two necessary bigs on the roster--Giles and Bags. Still missing a killer, lights out shooter at the 3 spot.

That said, the issue is effort and playing for each other. This team does not play for each other. There's too much iso ball. Too much inconsistency. Too much lack of detail--look no further than our lack of screening (from the bigs and the guards). How hard is it to set a proper screen? How hard is it to practice your sequencing and screening? Look no further than our defense, where 1/5 players on the court is actually playing defense. Where the bigs don't show out and where the guards (looking at you Buddy) provide a foot of space and go under screens on every play.

 

[Hoovtrain]

I think a lot of people are drinking the,kool aid that the “Joerger runs an archaic offense” crowd is pushing.......because it must be that.....right?

I don’t necessarily think it’s archaic, I think it’s just a crapty offense and doesn’t play to this teams strengths. Or maybe it’s just the players being crapty and not executing. Either way it doesn’t look like a professional offense being run out there

 

[Kingster]

At the post game conference, this is what Joerger said:

Tough night for us, didn't come out and play with force... again.
.....
You have to come out and play right from the jump. We've talked about it..... You have to do your work early - try to push team around and try to pressure them out on the floor....


It sounds like pressuring was the game plan and they players simply didn't do it. Why didn't Joerger called a timeout? Who knows. Maybe he was already screaming from the sideline to do it. Maybe he wanted to let the players play through it. Maybe he wanted to send them a message of how ugly it gets when orders aren't followed. Maybe there were so many mistakes he waited until he could address them all at once. Maybe he told the team before the game he would not nitpick until the tipping point. Maybe he didn't think micromanaging would work. Who knows. There are many ways to coach.

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And his way isn't working! If they don't pressure in the back court from the get-go, DO SOMETHING!

 

[kingsboi]

And his way isn't working! If they don't pressure in the back court from the get-go, DO SOMETHING!

would you like Dave to put on some Kyrie's and lace em up to demonstrate? >__>

 

[dude12]

No doubt, it’s not quite right. You see them against Phx and the Lakers and they are ok, then you see them against vet loaded, very good teams one of which is a championship team and they can’t compete.

I think this just has more to do with our youth and then non-stable roster than anything.....and there is no go to guy yet.
Added Yogi, Bjelica, Bagley, Giles, Shumpert in the last game.........and no Bogi.
Less to do with the coaching and more to do with the players.

I believe the more we play together, the better we will get. It’s going to happen.

 

[ESP47]

I think a lot of people are drinking the,kool aid that the “Joerger runs an archaic offense” crowd is pushing.......because it must be that.....right?

How often does Gobert get the ball at the top of the key and look for cutters? Pretty much never because it's a terribly inefficient basketball play. If you haven't noticed it's been one of the main cogs of the offense ever since Joerger got here. It simply makes no sense unless you have Draymond, Jokic or Gasol. The Kings don't have those guys so they shouldn't be running it.

Shooters shoot. Dunkers dunk. Passers pass. Drivers drive.

This coach has shooters driving, dunkers passing and passers cutting. It's completely ass backwards. Look at what happened when they came out after halftime and ran PnR after PnR? They got like 3 or 4 lobs just one after another. It caught the Jazz completely off guard because the Kings basically never run that. You're going to say Gobert wasn't out there for that run and that's very true but Favors was and it's not like every team has a Gobert. The Kings need to run the simple plays that get their passers passing and their dunkers dunking. Get some easy buckets and then work on your deficiencies in between if that's what the coach wants them to do.

 

[kb02]

How often does Gobert get the ball at the top of the key and look for cutters? Pretty much never because it's a terribly inefficient basketball play. If you haven't noticed it's been one of the main cogs of the offense ever since Joerger got here. It simply makes no sense unless you have Draymond, Jokic or Gasol. The Kings don't have those guys so they shouldn't be running it.

Shooters shoot. Dunkers dunk. Passers pass. Drivers drive.

This coach has shooters driving, dunkers passing and passers cutting. It's completely ass backwards. Look at what happened when they came out after halftime and ran PnR after PnR? They got like 3 or 4 lobs just one after another. It caught the Jazz completely off guard because the Kings basically never run that. You're going to say Gobert wasn't out there for that run and that's very true but Favors was and it's not like every team has a Gobert. The Kings need to run the simple plays that get their passers passing and their dunkers dunking. Get some easy buckets and then work on your deficiencies in between if that's what the coach wants them to do.

UCLA had Ben Howland as its hoops coach. Dude was a system coach, demanded everyone play defense and a role within it. A bunch of his players over achieved and became millionaires (Luc, Russ—lightly recruited, Affalo, Farmar). The Bruins made it to a few final fours, but Howlqnd started recruiting highly ranked head cases (Shabaz, Honeycutt, Reeves Nelson) and he was fired. The highly ranked players didn’t buy in.

Next coach was (is) Steve Alford. Dude let’s his players play. Rarely develops players and the play is often a cluster fok.

Having gone through that experience, I’d take the growing pains of Howland over Alfraud any day.

 

[ESP47]

UCLA had Ben Howland as its hoops coach. Dude was a system coach, demanded everyone play defense and a role within it. A bunch of his players over achieved and became millionaires (Luc, Russ—lightly recruited, Affalo, Farmar). The Bruins made it to a few final fours, but Howlqnd started recruiting highly ranked head cases (Shabaz, Honeycutt, Reeves Nelson) and he was fired. The highly ranked players didn’t buy in.

Next coach was (is) Steve Alford. Dude let’s his players play. Rarely develops players and the play is often a cluster fok.

Having gone through that experience, I’d take the growing pains of Howland over Alfraud any day.

Dave Joerger is essentially an NFL coach that runs the ball 66% of the time because that's how it worked back in the day. I'm sorry but it's not 2002 anymore and Vlade/Webber/Miller are not here. If they were in their prime right now, they wouldn't be nearly as effective in 2018 as they were in 2002 because the rules are different and analytics have shown that shooting threes and setting your big men up at the rim for easy looks is how you win basketball games.

You don't win games with bad passing big men setting players up for low percentage mid range shots and inefficient ISO situations.

 

[Joshoua]

Dave Joerger is essentially an NFL coach that runs the ball 66% of the time because that's how it worked back in the day. I'm sorry but it's not 2002 anymore and Vlade/Webber/Miller are not here. If they were in their prime right now, they wouldn't be nearly as effective in 2018 as they were in 2002 because the rules are different and analytics have shown that shooting threes and setting your big men up at the rim for easy looks is how you win basketball games.

You don't win games with bad passing big men setting players up for low percentage mid range shots and inefficient ISO situations.

Hahaha And he runs that much without a good RB and still drafts heavy run stopping linebackers. When do you realize that the game has changed unless your centers last name is Embiid why are you doing it

 

[joemama]

Good thing turner is coaching tonight

 

[Ozymandias]

The Kings roster is full of guys 6'10'' and bigger. They have failed in their strength training if the Coach is right.

This is not how it works bruh. The Kings have skilled 6'10" and taller guys who are in the early and middle stages of a multi year strengthening process. Not one of the Kings 4 1st rd bigs was ever billed as some strong big who could hold their ground, they have more finesse type players and are waiting on the strength to develop.

 

[Ozymandias]

UCLA had Ben Howland as its hoops coach. Dude was a system coach, demanded everyone play defense and a role within it. A bunch of his players over achieved and became millionaires (Luc, Russ—lightly recruited, Affalo, Farmar). The Bruins made it to a few final fours, but Howlqnd started recruiting highly ranked head cases (Shabaz, Honeycutt, Reeves Nelson) and he was fired. The highly ranked players didn’t buy in.

Next coach was (is) Steve Alford. Dude let’s his players play. Rarely develops players and the play is often a cluster fok.

Having gone through that experience, I’d take the growing pains of Howland over Alfraud any day.

Ben Howland's Mississippi State team went thru some major growing pains last year, but they are gonna be way better off for it this year. I cant wait to see that team!

Zach LaVine, who the kings went after this summer, is also a Howland guy!

 

[TaxMan]

Yes this team is young. BUT last night Joerger said the team only has 18% of the offense installed? WTF? These guys aren't rookies!

What kinda offense are you running that the team you've had for going on 2 years doesn't know more than 18% of the offense? Joerger needs to just simplify this system. He's all about these overly scripted sets. Running the offense thru the bigs in the high post with Fox as your PG is so stupid.

I heard that also. Also heard that last year. And heard it the year before. I realize we've got a roster full of kids, but how about we figure out an offense that we can implement to it's full extent. To me, ever since DMC was traded, I feel like Joerger has caveated everything the team has done. I wonder if it has just created excuses for the team. You can have a young team and as a coach still have high standards. I totally understand this is a rebuild, so part of me understands and appreciates the way Joerger has approached this, but at the same time it's starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth...like he's constantly making excuses for his coaching.

 

[VF21]

I'm sooooo glad more are starting to make observations like this. Hopefully more on the kings side are making the same observations.

More people making observations like that? Not really. It's pretty much the same ones as last year.

 

[ppine]

This is not how it works bruh. The Kings have skilled 6'10" and taller guys who are in the early and middle stages of a multi year strengthening process. Not one of the Kings 4 1st rd bigs was ever billed as some strong big who could hold their ground, they have more finesse type players and are waiting on the strength to develop.

Okay how long are you going to wait? Willie has been around for years. KK is the only guy on the team that can hold his position down low. Randolph doesn't get pushed around but is a non-factor. Only Giles and Bagley are young guys developing strength. It is a serious team problem. Not just the bigs.

 

[regularkingsfan]

Good thing turner is coaching tonight

You think an assistant coach is going to overturn the entire offensive scheme within a day? Lol

 

[Warhawk]

Okay how long are you going to wait? Willie has been around for years. KK is the only guy on the team that can hold his position down low. Randolph doesn't get pushed around but is a non-factor. Only Giles and Bagley are young guys developing strength. It is a serious team problem. Not just the bigs.

So, the two vets that we aren't playing are the two who have developed some old man strength. WCS is strong, but he isn't a bruiser type. We all know that. He will get pushed around a bit against the brick walls in the NBA. And the rest of our bigs are basically rooks or second year players who are developing.

So, what are you complaining about again?

 

[ESP47]

You think an assistant coach is going to overturn the entire offensive scheme within a day? Lol

Yeah of course not but they did run more pick and rolls yesterday that got our bigs some easy point blank shots at the rim.

 

[Kingster]

So, the two vets that we aren't playing are the two who have developed some old man strength. WCS is strong, but he isn't a bruiser type. We all know that. He will get pushed around a bit against the brick walls in the NBA. And the rest of our bigs are basically rooks or second year players who are developing.

So, what are you complaining about again?

I don't think it's primarily a strength issue with WCS (not that he's strong; he isn't); it's that he literally runs away from the competition. He isn't a fighter. Whether it's a Gobert, an Adams, a Gasol, a KAT, et al, he runs away from those guys. It's like he makes up his mind ahead of time that he can't win against those guys, so he disappears altogether. He just vanishes. Other centers who aren't in the upper tier will "go down guns ablazin', whereas Stein just jumps in the ocean before the fight.