If it is the case that he is blatantly misusing our roster, what is the explanation for it? I am not saying this is not the case,, but all the explanations that I can come up with don't make much sense to me. For example, one explanation is that he is a really really bad coach that cannot see what is obvious to everyone who has ever watched a basketball game. But then how has he built a career in coaching? It should have been obvious to prospective employers that this is a bad hire, yet he had multiple coaching jobs moving up the latter so to speak. So if its not the fact that he has no knowledge, what is it then? Or are we missing something?
Joerger
- Thread starter Kingster
- Start date
I wish I had an answer for you. To many people, including myself, it looks like the Kings are kind of ran like a carbon copy of the grit and grind Grizzlies that Joerger took over for. WCS is used a lot like Marc Gasol. Fox plays a heck of a lot like Conley even though he is a completely different type of player. It's a small sample size, but Bagley seems to be playing the ZBo role. He's basically set up in 1 on 1 ISO situations almost anytime he touches the ball. I feel like I'm watching those Grizzlies teams of old except I'm watching it being ran with players that don't have the skills to play like that. Even if we had a prime Conley, ZBo and Gasol right now, the 2018 grit and grind team wouldn't be nearly as good as the 2012 grit and grind team was because the league is much different now. Those 2 point baskets that ZBo scored back then were great but a handful of 3 point attempts by the PJ Tuckers of the world are now basically just as valuable.
A lot of coaches get fired for doing inexplicable things. I don't know how hard it is to make adjustments as a coach but it looks like Joerger is trying to continue to do what worked 4 or 5 years ago before teams all started jacking up 3s at a massive rate. It seems like that's what worked for him in the past and that's what he knows and he's trying to emulate that.
It seems as if the FO is pushing him toward playing a more modern version of basketball but at the same time they aren't giving him the right players to play that modern version of basketball. Modern basketball isn't played with a half dozen of 7 footers. His snarky comments tell you that he doesn't want to play so many young guys because young guys = losses and losses = a possible firing. On the flip side of things, everyone and their mother knows that playing a bunch of vets is just a waste of time. In Joerger's case, he has a vested interest....which is his job. It's just a mess from the top down.
So far all the players are either not very good, an ill fit or we simply can't tell because we don't really get to see them do what they're good at very often. It's a very odd situation and I'm hoping it works itself out here soon because I know everyone is tired of every single player on the roster having multiple questions going into each and every year.
A lot of coaches get fired for doing inexplicable things. I don't know how hard it is to make adjustments as a coach but it looks like Joerger is trying to continue to do what worked 4 or 5 years ago before teams all started jacking up 3s at a massive rate. It seems like that's what worked for him in the past and that's what he knows and he's trying to emulate that.
It seems as if the FO is pushing him toward playing a more modern version of basketball but at the same time they aren't giving him the right players to play that modern version of basketball. Modern basketball isn't played with a half dozen of 7 footers. His snarky comments tell you that he doesn't want to play so many young guys because young guys = losses and losses = a possible firing. On the flip side of things, everyone and their mother knows that playing a bunch of vets is just a waste of time. In Joerger's case, he has a vested interest....which is his job. It's just a mess from the top down.
So far all the players are either not very good, an ill fit or we simply can't tell because we don't really get to see them do what they're good at very often. It's a very odd situation and I'm hoping it works itself out here soon because I know everyone is tired of every single player on the roster having multiple questions going into each and every year.
How about you just let people discuss the matter at hand? There are way too many people here who just want everyone to sit in silence and wait for about 3 years to pass before we make comments on anything. Whether it's Joerger or Doncic or Bagley or WCS or Fox or whatever it may be. It's a friggin discussion forum where people are going to discuss what they want to discuss. Really tired of you guys constantly going around telling people to stop having discussions because you think it's too soon to have the discussion. If you don't like it, don't read it or just block me and the rest of the "offenders" who don't speak highly of the players or coaches that you may like.
We will see how it looks tonight. He said in the latest interview that his main goal is to create a lot of space for Fox to operate in. Lets see if what he comes up with here looks like it was designed to give Fox space (whether it works or not - Utah has a say), or whether it just looks like the same play style we have seen so far.
You're right -- I read back over your post and I didn't see any grand pronouncements, nothing but analysis. I've just seen too much of the former around here recently. My apologies.
We all know what Joeger has done in the past, and we all know who's on the roster. I'm hoping that the talk about modern basketball arises from pressuring him to diversify his system. If he does, and they can grind when necessary and they can run when necessary, that's potentially great.
We all know what Joeger has done in the past, and we all know who's on the roster. I'm hoping that the talk about modern basketball arises from pressuring him to diversify his system. If he does, and they can grind when necessary and they can run when necessary, that's potentially great.
The only question in the third year in is how much of what the coach is doing will lead to success with these players. At some point showing the door to the amount of players the Kings have and still getting the same results tells the story. With these quotes we get that trickle of the it's them not doing what's asked. Well Garrett Temple did? VC did? Zbo did? Well I didn't see it work out any better for them so where's the bar set here? If that many players are failing to get it done then maybe it's what's being done that is the issue. It's almost impossible to assess Joerger because his coaching style has been chaos from nearly day 1. Rotations that flip flop every night. Small one night. Big the next. Players that are excelling in certain sets seeing less and less action there. I think it's getting clearer that the confusion starts there and finds it's way down the line.
Now, from what we've heard this year is going to different. Training wheels off, etc. We'll see, but what we saw in preseason didn't look much different. The start of the season can be a great platform for Joerger to salvage this and it starts and ends with what he's wanting them to do and yes, from there if they are able to.
Now, from what we've heard this year is going to different. Training wheels off, etc. We'll see, but what we saw in preseason didn't look much different. The start of the season can be a great platform for Joerger to salvage this and it starts and ends with what he's wanting them to do and yes, from there if they are able to.
For sure. This was the same ball Elston had them playing in the Portland game. They've played with plenty of effort before, tonight we saw literally ZERO horn sets I think. I can't recall the spacing ever being this appropriate for their talent, nor do I recall them running this much pick and roll. This style fits the players much better and is what many of us have been begging for. If he builds off of this system he can eventually work the high post in as opposed to the opposite as he's been doing which has nearly destroyed this team not unlike every coach that's tried to install the Triangle recently has destroyed theirs. Some nights the team will just plain suck regardless of what they run because they're young, but if they run a spread pick and roll offense like this the young players on this team will begin to stand out more and more. The last thing I can think of him doing is gradually working his guys back towards the three point line and getting more catch and shoot opportunities for Buddy which will help.
Small sample size but clearly Joerger was in developmental/tank mode last 2 years as this year he’s taking advantage of his roster’s strengths and then piecing together to overcome weaknesses during this year.
Offense is less rigid
Sub pattern is more aggressive to counter matchup problems
Clearly coaching to win as opposed to development
Offense is less rigid
Sub pattern is more aggressive to counter matchup problems
Clearly coaching to win as opposed to development
I want to bump this. I’ve been a Joerger supporter from the start. The critics would always say that he inherited an already good team in Memphis. I’d always point to his last year there when his team set a record for amount of games lost due to injury and the coaching job he did that year. That year may look different to critics now after this short sample size but he’s good. He’s also not hamstrung by having to slyly tank games. Rotations are now designed to keep flow so they win. Offense has evolved like I suspected it would. He talked about pace for a long time and now it’s even exceeded what anyone probably thought could happen.
Hield is getting those big minutes that some wanted him to get.
Fox is out in space also getting big minutes
Good stuff by the coaching staff.
Hield is getting those big minutes that some wanted him to get.
Fox is out in space also getting big minutes
Good stuff by the coaching staff.
Speak for yourself 
Seriously though I am impressed. I wrote in my season preview Joerger was the biggest impediment to excitement and success if he was going to insist on Z-Bo basketball. There was NO place for him in the rotation. Would Joerger see the light for his own self-preservation. My hope was that he would see the light over a summer of contemplation and introspection. He had to change for the team to change. I envisioned that this team could be scintillating if Joerger embraced a new way of playing and completely abandoned what worked for him in the past. He did that so kudos to him.
Play Like It Is 2001-02 >>>> (Update: We are Playing this Way!)
Do you know what is the biggest unknown heading into 2018-19? Do you know what is the biggest obstacle between where we are now and where we want to be? Between collective frustration vs intermittent exhilaration? Between tediousness and manifestation of our highest potential? Between a possible playoff run and glorified scrimmages in the Spring of 2019? I think it is this coach. The wolf in sheep's clothing. It is his ego. His stubbornness. His undying love of the past, his loyalty to a washed up player, his inexplicable adoration of deliberate pace despite proclaiming otherwise, his insistence that his tedious imprint be felt for 48 ponderous minutes.
Joergers' worst impulses are in the way of whom D-Fox can be, who Buddy can be, and what this team can become. Yet hope springs eternal. Lesser impulses do not have to be followed. Constructive change is possible after a summer of introspection and enlightenment. This coach is fighting for his coaching life. He is fighting for career preservation. Does he want to die on the hill of Z-Bo, with a guy who cannot scale a phone book and acquires green leaf by the backpack full? Does he want to stay rooted to memories of the past or create something new and substantial? I would like to think a higher self will prevail and the coach and will convert his former star pupil with the smooth lefty flip into a role more aligned with present ability: mentor.
Giles and MB3 should be on the all-rookie team to end this season. They will be if Randolph gets out of the way by mandate of the coach who had his coming to Jesus moment. This doesn’t mean Randolph has to sulk, brood or cause waves. He can be valuable imparting his knowledge to the youngsters. It is not a bad way to earn $12 million once you admit your best days are behind you. Embrace this role and other roles click into place. The pace picks up. The ball moves. There is more wealth to be shared. For once, after a series of free agent mishaps, we could have two offseason signees who play their best basketball of their career, rather than collect a paycheck when more appealing destinations flamed out along with their skill level (see Affalo, Hill, etc).
Yogi and Bjelica came here to ball. They didn’t come to watch Z-Bo plod and pound, shoot 52% TS and be a mannequin on defense. D-Fox saw Dennis Smith Jr and Lonzo Ball get the keys to their teams as rookies. The keys were denied De’Aaron. Instead he watched Hill plod and pound. He watched Z-Bo plod and pound. He paid his dues in limbo. Set him free. Set the rookie bigs free. Set the free agents free. This coach holds the keys. Only he can unlock the cage. He cannot crack the door open a little. He has to swing it wide. If he tries to insert Z-Bo into the rotation, even 10-12 MPG, trouble beckons. Identity becomes muddled. Winnable games are forsaken and seasons unravel.
I am trying to envision a scenario where Randolph could play a valuable role off the bench. Nope. Don’t see it. The sooner this team is turned over to D-Fox the sooner we step into the future. We lucked our way into the 5th pick in 2017. We were not tempted to take a guy I think will prove to be a bust in the mold of Flynn or Mudiay. Lonzo was off the board and the best PG in the draft class fell into our laps. Fox is the future. We may as well make him the present and accelerate the path to the future. There is no place for Z-Bo in this context. If the coach tries to have it his way, fire him. I am opposed to getting rid of our GM. I have less patience for this coach. If he shows to be mired in his old ways 1-2 months into the season, hit the road Jack.
If Randolph does not want to accept a mentor role, if the coach wants to play him, the GM has no choice but to waive the player or fire the coach. It is in the best interest of all involved: the free agents, the rookies and the young vets. This is where Vlade got it wrong two summers in a row. It is not the GMs job to appease the coach and get him the players he wants. It is the GMs job to acquire players per his vision. It is the coaches job to coach the players that the GM acquires. This division of responsibility is mandatory for success. We saw what happened with acquisitions of Barnes, Carter and Z-Bo. These were Joerger requests dutifully fulfilled by a neophyte. No former Grizzlies were pursued or acquired this summer. Progress, my friends, progress.
Synergy manifests when ego gets out of the way on behalf of the coach and players, when the moment is embraced for the collective purpose and good. Boogie restricted this with his volatility. This coach may restrict this with his insistent style. We will see. When there is no undermining forces and the talent and passion coalesce, magic becomes possible. We witnessed this during the Adelman Era with C-Webb, Bobby, Peja, Bibby and yes Vlade. Vlade remembers this magic. So do long suffering fans. We can return to this brand of basketball if the involved parties are dedicated and united. This season can be scintillating if the aforementioned goals are pursued, if the preceding cautions are heeded. It is time for the Kings to fight and win, take no prisoners, show no mercy, or at least be valiant in defeat. New names will then secure their rightful place among the pantheon of greats, new stories will be written, new memories forged and new legacies earned. Game on.
Seriously though I am impressed. I wrote in my season preview Joerger was the biggest impediment to excitement and success if he was going to insist on Z-Bo basketball. There was NO place for him in the rotation. Would Joerger see the light for his own self-preservation. My hope was that he would see the light over a summer of contemplation and introspection. He had to change for the team to change. I envisioned that this team could be scintillating if Joerger embraced a new way of playing and completely abandoned what worked for him in the past. He did that so kudos to him.
Play Like It Is 2001-02 >>>> (Update: We are Playing this Way!)
Do you know what is the biggest unknown heading into 2018-19? Do you know what is the biggest obstacle between where we are now and where we want to be? Between collective frustration vs intermittent exhilaration? Between tediousness and manifestation of our highest potential? Between a possible playoff run and glorified scrimmages in the Spring of 2019? I think it is this coach. The wolf in sheep's clothing. It is his ego. His stubbornness. His undying love of the past, his loyalty to a washed up player, his inexplicable adoration of deliberate pace despite proclaiming otherwise, his insistence that his tedious imprint be felt for 48 ponderous minutes.
Joergers' worst impulses are in the way of whom D-Fox can be, who Buddy can be, and what this team can become. Yet hope springs eternal. Lesser impulses do not have to be followed. Constructive change is possible after a summer of introspection and enlightenment. This coach is fighting for his coaching life. He is fighting for career preservation. Does he want to die on the hill of Z-Bo, with a guy who cannot scale a phone book and acquires green leaf by the backpack full? Does he want to stay rooted to memories of the past or create something new and substantial? I would like to think a higher self will prevail and the coach and will convert his former star pupil with the smooth lefty flip into a role more aligned with present ability: mentor.
Giles and MB3 should be on the all-rookie team to end this season. They will be if Randolph gets out of the way by mandate of the coach who had his coming to Jesus moment. This doesn’t mean Randolph has to sulk, brood or cause waves. He can be valuable imparting his knowledge to the youngsters. It is not a bad way to earn $12 million once you admit your best days are behind you. Embrace this role and other roles click into place. The pace picks up. The ball moves. There is more wealth to be shared. For once, after a series of free agent mishaps, we could have two offseason signees who play their best basketball of their career, rather than collect a paycheck when more appealing destinations flamed out along with their skill level (see Affalo, Hill, etc).
Yogi and Bjelica came here to ball. They didn’t come to watch Z-Bo plod and pound, shoot 52% TS and be a mannequin on defense. D-Fox saw Dennis Smith Jr and Lonzo Ball get the keys to their teams as rookies. The keys were denied De’Aaron. Instead he watched Hill plod and pound. He watched Z-Bo plod and pound. He paid his dues in limbo. Set him free. Set the rookie bigs free. Set the free agents free. This coach holds the keys. Only he can unlock the cage. He cannot crack the door open a little. He has to swing it wide. If he tries to insert Z-Bo into the rotation, even 10-12 MPG, trouble beckons. Identity becomes muddled. Winnable games are forsaken and seasons unravel.
I am trying to envision a scenario where Randolph could play a valuable role off the bench. Nope. Don’t see it. The sooner this team is turned over to D-Fox the sooner we step into the future. We lucked our way into the 5th pick in 2017. We were not tempted to take a guy I think will prove to be a bust in the mold of Flynn or Mudiay. Lonzo was off the board and the best PG in the draft class fell into our laps. Fox is the future. We may as well make him the present and accelerate the path to the future. There is no place for Z-Bo in this context. If the coach tries to have it his way, fire him. I am opposed to getting rid of our GM. I have less patience for this coach. If he shows to be mired in his old ways 1-2 months into the season, hit the road Jack.
If Randolph does not want to accept a mentor role, if the coach wants to play him, the GM has no choice but to waive the player or fire the coach. It is in the best interest of all involved: the free agents, the rookies and the young vets. This is where Vlade got it wrong two summers in a row. It is not the GMs job to appease the coach and get him the players he wants. It is the GMs job to acquire players per his vision. It is the coaches job to coach the players that the GM acquires. This division of responsibility is mandatory for success. We saw what happened with acquisitions of Barnes, Carter and Z-Bo. These were Joerger requests dutifully fulfilled by a neophyte. No former Grizzlies were pursued or acquired this summer. Progress, my friends, progress.
Synergy manifests when ego gets out of the way on behalf of the coach and players, when the moment is embraced for the collective purpose and good. Boogie restricted this with his volatility. This coach may restrict this with his insistent style. We will see. When there is no undermining forces and the talent and passion coalesce, magic becomes possible. We witnessed this during the Adelman Era with C-Webb, Bobby, Peja, Bibby and yes Vlade. Vlade remembers this magic. So do long suffering fans. We can return to this brand of basketball if the involved parties are dedicated and united. This season can be scintillating if the aforementioned goals are pursued, if the preceding cautions are heeded. It is time for the Kings to fight and win, take no prisoners, show no mercy, or at least be valiant in defeat. New names will then secure their rightful place among the pantheon of greats, new stories will be written, new memories forged and new legacies earned. Game on.
Joerger fixed two major issues I had.
1. The pace and offensive approach
2. Solidifying a sensible rotation
I still think Skal got his doghouse treatment for reasons I'll never understand, but Joerger is doing the right things now. The question is why it took so long and what all those vet signings last year were about.
1. The pace and offensive approach
2. Solidifying a sensible rotation
I still think Skal got his doghouse treatment for reasons I'll never understand, but Joerger is doing the right things now. The question is why it took so long and what all those vet signings last year were about.
No doubt. I think he gave preseason one last shot and it was clear it was a no win situation. Also, props to Elston for coaching that Blazers game in the same style they are playing now. Clear paint, open floor, 4 and 5 out sets. I don't have a problem with Joerger mixing some high post sets, but the focus was backwards. Now, if they can build it off this structure the mistakes won't appear nearly as magnified nor will it have the negative impact as it did before.
I think that when you can run, you run. But you also have to know how to play out of a half court set, because your not always going to be able to get out and run to your advantage. I think the high post set favors the Kings and their personnel because it helps open up the lane for cutters and PG penetration. It's easy to run the P&R out of, and it still allows you to play fast. The one thing it might hurt is your offensive rebounding, but everything comes at a cost.
Joerger said before this season "the cuffs are coming off". When pressed on what he meant he chucked and said something like "we're gonna win some games".
I think the most likely explanation for the apparent 180 degree change is that it was all part of a larger plan. cuffs on last year - teaching stuff he wanted taught without concern for W/L. cuffs off this year - deploy what has been learned and win some games.
Pretty sure he didn't just have a sudden epiphany from reading enough ding dong blog posters and Aaron Bruski criticizing what they saw.
I think the most likely explanation for the apparent 180 degree change is that it was all part of a larger plan. cuffs on last year - teaching stuff he wanted taught without concern for W/L. cuffs off this year - deploy what has been learned and win some games.
Pretty sure he didn't just have a sudden epiphany from reading enough ding dong blog posters and Aaron Bruski criticizing what they saw.
I mean it made a lot of sense to focus on slow down grindy play that often happens when you get to playoffs and you gameplan a 7 game series rather than just try to force the other team to play your game. But if you suggested that last season you were a nutso.
Now if someone can explain to me what universe Blob is watching from I might understand his language. Why is anyone talking about Z-Bo in 2018-2019?
Now if someone can explain to me what universe Blob is watching from I might understand his language. Why is anyone talking about Z-Bo in 2018-2019?
I think he said the "training wheels" are coming off.
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/kings/summer-question-what-do-kings-do-all-their-big-men
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/kings/summer-question-what-do-kings-do-all-their-big-men
