Joe Dumars?

#62
Joe Dumars put together a team that won NBA championship. That’s all you need to know about him...
And Phil Jacksons is the greatest of all time. Until he isn't. Dumars has already hit into the wall plenty of times in his career and most pointedly at the phase closer to where this team is at now. Resume is part of things but not all unless you include the negatives with it. If not you're just gonna Al Bundy the whole thing up. Deluding yourself into thinking all you need to know is he scored the game winning touchdown at Polk high will come back to bite you. Joe Dumars resume clearly states, he built a one of kind team towards the start of his career that won a ring. Then it was a series of decent moves and blunders that make Vlade look like a GM of the year candidate. Mostly because you're comparing many years of Dumars to only a few of Vlade but still.

There is a potential positive with Dumars though. Unless he wants to scrap things, which his resume doesn't paint a very positive picture of his history when leading that charge, he has a unit with largely developed players and experience already. He has shown a history of moving shrewdly at the right times when he's got tools or when that picture is as far along as this one might be in terms of being painted. If he finds the right coach, and gives it time that might be the most shrewd thing he can do. Coming in with a vision that doesn't fit the players as Vlade did will only continue the slide and the slide is already so far down that you have literally probably 10 games before the players are all out on all of this if they aren't already. As a GM he has to either let some clutter loose or commit to someone at each position. For instance, either Buddy and Bogdan play together and they find a way to get them the 35 mpg they need or they cut bait somewhere. Same thing in the front court. Vlades biggest achilles was always gorging on dollar menu items without figuring out how not to barf half way through eating it all. No more depth-ing your way to oblivion. You don't sign Dedmons or Hills because it looks great on paper then watch attitudes and performance suffer. Maximize that top 9 then give yourself some upside down the rest of the roster. You know, like every other franchise with common sense does.
 
#64
For the posters saying Dumars was able to put together a championship team, that was close to 20 years ago. Vlade and Dumars were from a different era. That has to make a difference and it appears as if it did. How did Karl work out here? Sure there were other circumstances involved in his tenure, and he is/was more forward thinking in his ideas than Dumars and Vlade but there has to be a shelf life for these guys.

I mean, the Kings can get Dumars in and I wouldn’t be surprised if he drafted another big.
 
#65
What does it matter? DeMarcus is never coming back here. In fact, he'll be lucky if he ever plays any meaningful NBA minutes again.
Fair enough, but Im not ready to throw DeMarcus’s playing days out with the bath water quite yet. I also recon Vlades departure might play into his thoughts on Sacramento.
I enjoyed the late 80’s Pistons and could have seen DeMarcus in that picture.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#67
Dumars may not be the best guy for the job, but it may very well be he is the best available based on who is not under contract AND willing to take the gig. I am less worried about the mistakes he has made in drafting than what he learned form them. Joe knows defense, Joe knows wining and Joe is NOT a yes man. I like that. I will also say that if Walton blows his shot next season Joe might also be the guy to call in a defensive minded coach who knows how to win.
 
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#68
Nice article about Dumars over on the Herald.

My favorite quote from the article since it makes me believe Dumars may understand the how and why of a rebuild:

He also admitted that he should have tried to go through a true rebuild. (The team never had a top-5 lottery pick in his tenure, other than the Miličić No. 2 pick in 2003.)

“When you’re trying to rebuild on the fly, you’re probably putting yourself in a position to make decisions that have more risk in them. If you completely break it down, it’s easier to make decisions that you know don’t have to manifest themselves in six months or a year. You’re looking at three, four years (in terms of) what it needs to look like. When you’re doing it on the fly, you’re looking for immediate returns, right now, because you don’t have time to wait.”​

Link to article---> https://kingsherald.com/articles/reviewing-joe-dumars-tenure-with-the-detroit-pistons/
 
#69
Nice article about Dumars over on the Herald.

My favorite quote from the article since it makes me believe Dumars may understand the how and why of a rebuild:

He also admitted that he should have tried to go through a true rebuild. (The team never had a top-5 lottery pick in his tenure, other than the Miličić No. 2 pick in 2003.)

“When you’re trying to rebuild on the fly, you’re probably putting yourself in a position to make decisions that have more risk in them. If you completely break it down, it’s easier to make decisions that you know don’t have to manifest themselves in six months or a year. You’re looking at three, four years (in terms of) what it needs to look like. When you’re doing it on the fly, you’re looking for immediate returns, right now, because you don’t have time to wait.”​

Link to article---> https://kingsherald.com/articles/reviewing-joe-dumars-tenure-with-the-detroit-pistons/
alright than he should hire Hinkie he has a PHD in that type of tanking
 
#71
Dumars may not be the best guy for the job, but it may very well be he is the best available based on who is not under contract AND willing to take the gig. I am less worried about the mistakes he has made in drafting than what he learned form them. Joe knows defense, Joe knows wining and Joe is NOT a yes man. I like that. I will also say that if Walton blows his shot next season Joe might also be the guy to call in a defensive minded coach who knows how to win.
I'd be happy if they bring in Kenny Atkinson and David Fizdale for an interview. Both got shafted and both are strong with developing young talents
 
#72
I'd be happy if they bring in Kenny Atkinson and David Fizdale for an interview. Both got shafted and both are strong with developing young talents
Are you positive about Fizdale? I thought he wasnt very good in his stint.

Whomever it is, I want someone who is firm, even prickly but who has the respect. Look at Malone. Joerger had them on the right path. Walton is way to laid back. Remember Joerger laying into Buddy? I feel as though Walton is partly to blame for Buddy’s crapty behavior/attitude. Walton has laid the environment. Can’t see Buddy ever saying some of the things he does if the head coach was a Pop, Malone, type guy. I think it’s why I want Becky Hammon to get an interview. I think she would lay down the law but in the way players could respect.
 
#73
Are you positive about Fizdale? I thought he wasnt very good in his stint.

Whomever it is, I want someone who is firm, even prickly but who has the respect. Look at Malone. Joerger had them on the right path. Walton is way to laid back. Remember Joerger laying into Buddy? I feel as though Walton is partly to blame for Buddy’s crapty behavior/attitude. Walton has laid the environment. Can’t see Buddy ever saying some of the things he does if the head coach was a Pop, Malone, type guy. I think it’s why I want Becky Hammon to get an interview. I think she would lay down the law but in the way players could respect.
I thought he did pretty well with Memphis team that year after he took over for Dave Joerger. He was well regarded in Miami when he was an assistant coach. I'd be happy with Becky Hammon or Ime Udoka too. Basically if we can poach anything from San Antonio or Miami, i'd be happy.
 
#74
Jason Anderson of the Bee tweeted out league sources are positioning themselves in regards to the GM position but didn’t mention any names.

I wish he would just say what “league sources” have heard and give names.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#76
Jason Anderson of the Bee tweeted out league sources are positioning themselves in regards to the GM position but didn’t mention any names.

I wish he would just say what “league sources” have heard and give names.
"League sources" is sports journalist code for some guy who may have overheard something in the parking lot. :p

Seriously, sometimes those league sources are a player's agent; other times it might be a minority owner or disgruntled front office employee. It's a big misconception to attribute too much weight in most instances. Oft-times, to be honest, it could even be a writer's way of getting his/her own thoughts/theories out there...
 
#77
Jason Anderson of the Bee tweeted out league sources are positioning themselves in regards to the GM position but didn’t mention any names.

I wish he would just say what “league sources” have heard and give names.
Agents and Public Relations people are networking.....calls, texts, emails, messages are flying around. There are just 30 GM jobs to go around:)
 
#78
Jason Anderson of the Bee tweeted out league sources are positioning themselves in regards to the GM position but didn’t mention any names.

I wish he would just say what “league sources” have heard and give names.
That would take effort and since journalism died years ago it ain’t happening.


"League sources" is sports journalist code for some guy who may have overheard something in the parking lot. :p

Seriously, sometimes those league sources are a player's agent; other times it might be a minority owner or disgruntled front office employee. It's a big misconception to attribute too much weight in most instances. Oft-times, to be honest, it could even be a writer's way of getting his/her own thoughts/theories out there...
“Multiple sources”


I'd be happy if they bring in Kenny Atkinson and David Fizdale for an interview. Both got shafted and both are strong with developing young talents
Fizdale? lol stop it
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#81
I can guarantee you one thing no proven good GM is coming here. Cross off Morey/Hinkie why would they come here to answer to Dumars and deal with vevik. We have to hope for the Toronto guy
Dealing with Vivek isn't the real issue, IMHO. It's more dealing with "the man (or woman) behind the curtain."
 
#82
Some fans on this site are maddeningly inconsistent and hypocritical. They want Hinkie or Morey, despite their flaws and lack of a championship, because those teams are playoff teams, but they bad mouth Dumars who also built a perennial playoff team but unlike the other two actually won a title. Go figure. Tremendous logic.

IDC if Dumars team won a title 16 years ago. He at least proved he can build a team to go all the way. Meanwhile the other two have built their teams using gimmicks and never reach the Finals and often lose in the 1st or 2nd round. The freaking Sixers have TWO 2nd round appearances thus far to show for all their years of tanking. In the weaker East no less.

Yeah, yeah, but at least they make the playoffs unlike the KINGS, right? If that’s the extent of a KINGS fan’s goals or vision, I can’t go there with you.

Sure, of course I’d love for the KINGS to reach the postseason. But I’m not so solely focused on it to blindly accept a GM that can build a team mired to the bottom half of the top 8. The KINGS had that type of team in 1996 and even early during the Adelman years. It gets pretty old pretty fast. I root for teams in other sports that are good enough to make the postseason regularly, but can’t ever take it further. Do any of you root for the SJ Sharks?

I’d much rather have a GM that has at least made it happen once. And didn’t have to resort to gimmicks to do it.

Regardless, IMO it’s disingenuous to prop up Hinkie and Morey while dismissing Dumars.

I personally am not 100% on the Dumars bandwagon. But if it’s a choice between Dumars or the likes of Hinkie and Morey, it’s an easy choice for me. But if the KINGS could get an up and comer in the mold of a Sam Presti, I’d prefer going that direction.

Presti hasn’t won a title either, but he’s proved more consistent than the other two in terms of drafting talent and acquiring assets and using those assets wisely. His OKC team came closer to a title than anything Morey or Hinkie has produced. His current team minus a legit super star is arguably just as good as their teams. And he has a ton of assets to continue building. And he didn’t use gimmicks to do it.
 
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#86
Some fans on this site are maddeningly inconsistent and hypocritical. They want Hinkie or Morey, despite their flaws and lack of a championship, because those teams are playoff teams, but they bad mouth Dumars who also built a perennial playoff team but unlike the other two actually won a title. Go figure. Tremendous logic.

IDC if Dumars team won a title 16 years ago. He at least proved he can build a team to go all the way. Meanwhile the other two have built their teams using gimmicks and never reach the Finals and often lose in the 1st or 2nd round. The freaking Sixers have TWO 2nd round appearances thus far to show for all their years of tanking. In the weaker East no less.

Yeah, yeah, but at least they make the playoffs unlike the KINGS, right? If that’s the extent of a KINGS fan’s goals or vision, I can’t go there with you.

Sure, of course I’d love for the KINGS to reach the postseason. But I’m not so solely focused on it to blindly accept a GM that can build a team mired to the bottom half of the top 8. The KINGS had that type of team in 1996 and even early during the Adelman years. It gets pretty old pretty fast. I root for teams in other sports that are good enough to make the postseason regularly, but can’t ever take it further. Do any of you root for the SJ Sharks?

I’d much rather have a GM that has at least made it happen once. And didn’t have to resort to gimmicks to do it.

Regardless, IMO it’s disingenuous to prop up Hinkie and Morey while dismissing Dumars.

I personally am not 100% on the Dumars bandwagon. But if it’s a choice between Dumars or the likes of Hinkie and Morey, it’s an easy choice for me. But if the KINGS could get an up and comer in the mold of a Sam Presti, I’d prefer going that direction.

Presti hasn’t won a title either, but he’s proved more consistent than the other two in terms of drafting talent and acquiring assets and using those assets wisely. His OKC team came closer to a title than anything Morey or Hinkie has produced. His current team minus a legit super star is arguably just as good as their teams. And he has a ton of assets to continue building. And he didn’t use gimmicks to do it.
Ok Dumars got one ring than what happened I don’t think he made one good move after that. Even in the 90s why would you have a starting froncourt of Smith/Monroe/Drummond that’s absurd. Why would you trade Middleton for sorry ass Brandon Jennings. We gave vlade cap space and not once did he destroy us with it maybe with Buddy but atleast he’s passable. What did Dumars do with cap space? Outbid himself for the services of Villanueva and Ben Gordon, laughable offers the minute he did it.

How do you bring up Philadelphia only making the second round as a bad thing. They only did that because of Hinkies players. The colangelos came in there and destroyed everything the was built almost all there moves were questionable. How do you have Embiid/Ben and surround them with non shooters and a ball hog. How do you get cap space and instead of getting a deal team or a good shooter you go sign a player that plays the same position as you best player. How do you trade a good shooting rookie in Shamet at no cost for Tobias Harris who doesn’t space the floor and is a shoot first player. They had the easiest job in the world after Hinkie got them stars all they had to do was get 3 and D players and there elite contenders. They had Covington/Shamet/Reddick and somehow sub them out for non shooters. The fact that there still in position to contend just adds to Hinkies resume.

I’m not taking Presti over Morey, Morey was forced to get rid of good players because of the cheapness of ownership.

If both Morey/Hinkie are available and we keep Dumars this will be another Luka Doncic mess up.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#87
Ok Dumars got one ring than what happened I don’t think he made one good move after that. Even in the 90s why would you have a starting froncourt of Smith/Monroe/Drummond that’s absurd. Why would you trade Middleton for sorry ass Brandon Jennings. We gave vlade cap space and not once did he destroy us with it maybe with Buddy but atleast he’s passable. What did Dumars do with cap space? Outbid himself for the services of Villanueva and Ben Gordon, laughable offers the minute he did it.

How do you bring up Philadelphia only making the second round as a bad thing. They only did that because of Hinkies players. The colangelos came in there and destroyed everything the was built almost all there moves were questionable. How do you have Embiid/Ben and surround them with non shooters and a ball hog. How do you get cap space and instead of getting a deal team or a good shooter you go sign a player that plays the same position as you best player. How do you trade a good shooting rookie in Shamet at no cost for Tobias Harris who doesn’t space the floor and is a shoot first player. They had the easiest job in the world after Hinkie got them stars all they had to do was get 3 and D players and there elite contenders. They had Covington/Shamet/Reddick and somehow sub them out for non shooters. The fact that there still in position to contend just adds to Hinkies resume.

I’m not taking Presti over Morey, Morey was forced to get rid of good players because of the cheapness of ownership.

If both Morey/Hinkie are available and we keep Dumars this will be another Luka Doncic mess up.
Yep Presti had the good fortune of being the second overall pick in a draft with two consensus star players and having the team in front of him make the wrong choice (which isn’t to say they made a bad choice, only that Oden proved to be made out of glass and papier-mâché). He also got incredibly lucky in that the bad coach he hired to coach his young team happened to have hired a really good assistant coach who was able to step up when said bad coach got fired.

when it came time to choose between Westbrook and Harden, he made the bad choice. And while I’ll give him credit for accumulating the picks and players that he was able to for George and Westbrook, he ultimately could have been better off just not trading Oladipo and Sabonis for a two year rental in the first place.
 
#88
Yep Presti had the good fortune of being the second overall pick in a draft with two consensus star players and having the team in front of him make the wrong choice (which isn’t to say they made a bad choice, only that Oden proved to be made out of glass and papier-mâché). He also got incredibly lucky in that the bad coach he hired to coach his young team happened to have hired a really good assistant coach who was able to step up when said bad coach got fired.

when it came time to choose between Westbrook and Harden, he made the bad choice. And while I’ll give him credit for accumulating the picks and players that he was able to for George and Westbrook, he ultimately could have been better off just not trading Oladipo and Sabonis for a two year rental in the first place.
I can't really fault Presti for either of the moves made in your second paragraph there. His drafting resume is pretty stout.

Kevin Durant
Carl Landry
Russell Westbrook
Serge Ibaka
James Harden
Reggie Jackson
Steven Adams
Brandon Clarke

His only real bust has been Cameron Payne and still he was like the 14th pick or something like that. Terrance Ferguson wasn't a good pick either but that was late first round. It's just there were some talented players right behind him in Jarrett Allen, Anonuby and Derrick White.

The only thing I can nit pick is his penchant for trading away players before they have a chance to excel (Harden, Sabonis, Clarke). He's gotten good value in most of his trades except for the Harden trade. I understand why he did it because you can't really have 3 ball hogs on a team but that move did not pay off.

The second most impressive thing of all, after his draft picks, is the fact that he was able to completely blow up his team for a rebuild, while acquiring a ton of first round picks.....all while staying afloat as a playoff team. That was pretty impressive. His first year rebuild team is literally better than any team the Kings have fielded since 2005-06.