When we got a bunch of young guys out there, we weren't expecting too much. Hell, once Martin and Artest were out, we didn't expect a win till one of the three came back. What has become a selling point for the fans this season though isn't trying to make the playoffs and be contenders, but it became about trying to be competitive. Tonight, it was anything but. These two guys need to go.
It breaks my heart a little but...
- Thread starter VF21
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DocHolliday
Starter
Personally I think Ron came back to soon. when he's back to full speed I think he'll be fine, although for some reason, I could do without him on the team.
Mr. Bibby however I want out of town as soon as possible. I hope he keeps shooting the way he is, so he has value. It became very apparent last night that part of the excitemen and success of this team was from Beno pushing the ball and making a good pass. I don't know if Bibby can't anymore, or if he just won't, but he does NOT push the ball almost ever. And his game shape has nothing to do with it. He's been doing this walk the ball up crap for the last few years.
LA King Fan II
Bench
I've harped on it for some time but we don't need garcia-martin-bibby-artest-salmons. Three is plenty. Any two are absolutely expendable in terms of forming a more balanced team.
I'm not positive the two that HAVE to go are Bibby and Artest, but anyone of the five would be much much better if they had a starting front line that was better than Brad Miller, Mikki Moore. In fact I'd like to see them add Hawes who will never be the player Kevin Love is right now. And even Love is a questionable NBA fit.
A trade for anyone would be an improvemet. As VF said, we saw this last year. Losing Bonzi last year killed the chance of a King resurrection (off their double matchup problem (Artest Wells) playoff resurgence against the Spurs. Something should have been seen long ago. Mikki Moore and Spencer Hawes to the rescue??? Ewwww.
I'm not positive the two that HAVE to go are Bibby and Artest, but anyone of the five would be much much better if they had a starting front line that was better than Brad Miller, Mikki Moore. In fact I'd like to see them add Hawes who will never be the player Kevin Love is right now. And even Love is a questionable NBA fit.
A trade for anyone would be an improvemet. As VF said, we saw this last year. Losing Bonzi last year killed the chance of a King resurrection (off their double matchup problem (Artest Wells) playoff resurgence against the Spurs. Something should have been seen long ago. Mikki Moore and Spencer Hawes to the rescue??? Ewwww.
treewoman
Bench
That was one of the saddest games I ever saw. For the life of me I can not figure out why either Artest or Bibby had so many minutes. I agree with most of the above - especially about the negative effect Ron appears to have on his team's spirit. From things I've heard Reggie say in the past it appears to me he condsiders Ron his star and key player (rather than Kevin) and that really concerns me. In another post there was a lot of talk about Petrie I think it will be interesting to see how he handles this.
KingsCitizen
Starter
Someone will be shipped out before trade deadline for sure.
If Petrie can do Artest = Loul Deng + Tyrus Thomas trade then Bibby = Horford + Claxton trade. Then we won't do any rebuilding anymore and would still likely be in the playoffs/championship contention with all young and athletic players.
Anyway, trading Artest(with player option next year) is much more comfortable with the emergence of Jones(if we resign him), Salmons, and Cisco. But trading Bibby at this time is a bit tricky since Beno will be a free agent after this season and surely we saw that this team is not so blessed in the point position before Beno arrived
If Petrie can do Artest = Loul Deng + Tyrus Thomas trade then Bibby = Horford + Claxton trade. Then we won't do any rebuilding anymore and would still likely be in the playoffs/championship contention with all young and athletic players.
Anyway, trading Artest(with player option next year) is much more comfortable with the emergence of Jones(if we resign him), Salmons, and Cisco. But trading Bibby at this time is a bit tricky since Beno will be a free agent after this season and surely we saw that this team is not so blessed in the point position before Beno arrived
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Agreed.
Hang in there Bibby; not everyone hates you.
It's just your 1st game back. Not your fault Artest thought he was playing Twenty-1 out there.
=LarryLegend=
Starter
How in the F*** does mike play 28mins with not 1 assist!!! WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW
I used to like mike, but even at the open practice to me he seemed like he thought "i am going to get mine". He used to make players around him better......now those players are better without HIM.
that game made me sick to me stomach....after that great dallas game. damn.
I used to like mike, but even at the open practice to me he seemed like he thought "i am going to get mine". He used to make players around him better......now those players are better without HIM.
that game made me sick to me stomach....after that great dallas game. damn.
=LarryLegend=
Starter
Anybody worried Beno might walk? I mean if bibby gets traded, and beno is told he is our starter maybe.....but there is alot of teams that will make a run at him.
Depends.
Depends on if Mike is still here or not. Depends on if this team is playing well after any trades go down. Depends on if we are willing to spend the MLE on him, and if other teams feel the same way. Depends on what other teams go after him and if they have a starting position open.
Depends.
Edit - could be an interesting poll - if Mike is gone and we have a starting spot open, do we want Beno to be the starter and how much should we offer? MLE? Is he worth that? More? Less? Do you think he's good enough to start until we get the frontcourt figured out? Maybe even after that with growth in the systema and the team? If someone feels like putting a little effort and research into a poll, that might be a good one....
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I'd move Mike before Ron. Mike is wanted by quite a few teams that want a PG that can shoot, and whatever Mike should be doing to justify his high salary.
Ron on the other hand is getting less $ then he should based on his talent, his actions both previous and what's to come how small they may be is what has always held his NBA career from realizing what a lock down Defender he is and how passionate he is to win and compete (love of the game and the countless hrs he puts in so willfully to improve and help other teamates). Whether many of you like it or not Ron is up there with KMart as the backbone of our franchise and we'd be foolish to trade Ron for pennies on the $.
However, I haven't seen the impact with Mike and Ron coming back, but I know how bringing CWebb back when the team was on a huge roll really disrupted things and with Mike and Ron both wanting to be like Kobe and carry the full load I see big problems. One of the biggest problems is keeping John happy and if he can take on the 6th man role and Cisco maybe the 7 or 8th man role. With John's versatility and being able to play 3 positions, we need him around and to keep him even just remotely happy!
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nbrans
All-Star
I'm with GGG -- the writing has been on the wall for a long time now. I don't know why people are acting surprised. Bibby has never been the same since Webber left, and Artest has been a disruptive presence ever since he arrived. Let's just hope Petrie's able to pull something off.
kennadog
Dog On It!
I have thought for awhile now that both Bibby and Artest need to go, for the long-term good of the team. I think we'd better put a priority on Ron. I do not think Bibby will opt out this summer, but I tend to think Ron will. Bibby should go either before the trade deadline (best), but certainly this summer. His salary is just a huge obstacle to team improvement.
By the way, I like Beno, but I'm not convinced he's some great PG yet. He seems awfully TO prone for a PG. I'm hoping he improves, but I think he needs the minutes to do so. If Bibby goes (which I advocate), we will need to look for another PG, tho. One isn't enough, as we saw at the beginning of the season.
By the way, I like Beno, but I'm not convinced he's some great PG yet. He seems awfully TO prone for a PG. I'm hoping he improves, but I think he needs the minutes to do so. If Bibby goes (which I advocate), we will need to look for another PG, tho. One isn't enough, as we saw at the beginning of the season.
nbrans
All-Star
All the more reason for Bibby to be the first to go (or both). Having Bibby around another year is going to keep this team in turmoil and prevent it from turning the corner. If Ron opts out it would be unfortunate to lose him but at least we get the cap space -- plus, with so few teams with cap room this offseason he's either going to have to go for the MLE or work with us on a S&T.
And I definitely agree with you about Beno. I think he's a solid PG but not necessarily the PG who is going to get us back to the playoffs. I hope he keeps improving (it's a difficult position), but I would rather have someone like Calderon.
kennadog
Dog On It!
True and I hadn't looked at it that way, altho I'm not sure how much cap space losing Ron would give us. Ideally we don't have either Bibby or Ron on the team, the sooner the better.
(It will pain my heart to see Bibby go, but its absolutely best for the team. May be best for him, too, if he can go to a contender.)
Showtime
Starter
And with that in mind, I will no longer watch games in which Bibby starts, or if he's shooting the team out of the game and isn't benched.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
First of all, I don't think that Bibby played that badly last night. Having said that, I do think he needs to be traded, and the sooner the better. Ron however, at least to me, stood out like a pimple on a smooth face. He was never in the flow of the game, made stupid unforced turnovers and couldn't have shot a baseball into a fruit basket. He had little or no impact on defense except one sequence where he guarded Bosh, who in my opinion is a very good player that we made look like a superstar. Mikki Moore couldn't guard Bosh with a fish net.
Artest is going to leave at the end of the year. So one way or another, he's gone. Unless you want relief from the cap, you need to trade him. The future doesn't lie with Bibby, so he needs to go. I guess my point is, that if the future of the team lies with who's there without Bibby and Artest, there's no sound reason to screw up whatever chemistry that been developed. I hope this is just a showcase for the two of them, and then bye bye....
Artest is going to leave at the end of the year. So one way or another, he's gone. Unless you want relief from the cap, you need to trade him. The future doesn't lie with Bibby, so he needs to go. I guess my point is, that if the future of the team lies with who's there without Bibby and Artest, there's no sound reason to screw up whatever chemistry that been developed. I hope this is just a showcase for the two of them, and then bye bye....
Jerryaki
Starter
i haven't really noticed ron's tutelage improving any of our wing players' defenses appreciably, but might be missing something. anyway, like bibby, i don't htink this is the right situation for ron any longer. he is a great talent, but that great talent hasn't translated into anything for us. terms like "beast" should be reserved for guys like dwight howard, a certifiable game changer.
It's not aout "hate." It's about recognizing that it's time to move the team in a different direction. The word "hate" is bandied about way too often around here anytime anyone criticizes a player or coach or GM or anyone else.
This is a professional basketball team we're talking about, not a high school clique. Mike Bibby is a highly skilled professional athlete who has certain strengths and weaknesses that flourish under some conditions and stagnate or pollute under others.
Mike would be much better suited for a team with a strong frontcourt such as what we had in the Webber/Divac days. The Kings are better suited, at least at this moment in time, with a Udrih-type point guard who does an excellent job of distributing the ball.
Again, it's not about "hate." Never was and never will be.
Bibby would be better off with big guys with exellent passing abilities.And because of his poor defense,a good defender at 2(such as DC13) is needed,then the back court would be more balanced.
kennadog
Dog On It!
I will hate to see Bibby go. I do support trading him, however. No matter how much I like Bibby, I can recognize that trading him is best for the future of the team. Depending on what we get in return, of course.
I don't dislike Ron, either. He just doesn't seem like a good fit for the team now or going forward. I'm not sure he has the patience/desire to keep playing for a losing team, that isn't going to see the play-offs this year and likely not for awhile. I'm not sure I want to test that, either.
I don't dislike Ron, either. He just doesn't seem like a good fit for the team now or going forward. I'm not sure he has the patience/desire to keep playing for a losing team, that isn't going to see the play-offs this year and likely not for awhile. I'm not sure I want to test that, either.
Bibby_10
Bench
If by disruptive you mean getting us into the playoffs in 06 then I guess you have a point. You may want him gone because he doesn't fit with this current team (and I agree with that), but saying he was disruptive from the beginning is flat out BS.
I for one would rather see us move Artest and hang onto Bibby. The problem with Artest is his need to dominate the ball on offense. I actually like the Garcia/Salmons platoon moving forward.
However- I am not ready to write off Bibby after one game with Theus. I want to give him a few more games to see how he does in lineups without Artest (most of his minutes last night were with Ron, and as another poster mentioned, Bibby played much beter last year without Ron).
Specifically, I would like to see some minutes the next few gamesof the following lineups to see a) how Bibby plays under Reggie without Artest, and b) how Bibby plays with the emerging Slamons/Garcia/Udrih c) to see if Bibby could play spot minutes as a SG:
Udrih/Bibby/Martin/Salmons/Miller
Udrih/Bibby/Martin/Garcia/Miller
Bibby/Martin/Garcia/Salmons/Miller
I don't want Bibby playing 40 minutes, but I think there could be some very good situations for him to play 28-30 minutes. I think he should ONLY play with Miller and Martin. The three compliment each other so well. Bibby loves a pck and roll game, and Miller thrives in pick and pop. Plus pick and roll takes a lot of the defensive attention to the high perimeter, opening up driving and cutting lanes for MArtin. Miller and Bibby were both AWFUL last year, but there were lots of signs of what the three of them could do on offense together. Bibby/Martin/Miller is a bad defensive core, but not much worse than Udrih/Martin/Miller.
Around those three, you could play any combination of Garcia/Douby/Salmons/Moore, etc... depending on what you wanted to do.
So- if we wanted to trade Artest and keep Bibby, I could see something like the following being very good.
PG- Bibby- 18; Udrih-30
SG- Martin- 26; Bibby- 10; Douby/Jones- 12
SF- Salmons- 18; Garcia- 20; Martin-10
PF- Moore- 20; Salmons- 18; Garcia-10
C- Miller- 36; Hawes/Williams- 12
Total
Udrih-30
Bibby-28
Martin-36
Douby/Jones-12
Garcia-30
Salmons- 36
Moore-20
Miller- 36
Hawes/Williams- 12
Solid 9 man rotation with Reggie getting to choose between Douby/Jones and Hawes/Williams based on matchup...
However- I am not ready to write off Bibby after one game with Theus. I want to give him a few more games to see how he does in lineups without Artest (most of his minutes last night were with Ron, and as another poster mentioned, Bibby played much beter last year without Ron).
Specifically, I would like to see some minutes the next few gamesof the following lineups to see a) how Bibby plays under Reggie without Artest, and b) how Bibby plays with the emerging Slamons/Garcia/Udrih c) to see if Bibby could play spot minutes as a SG:
Udrih/Bibby/Martin/Salmons/Miller
Udrih/Bibby/Martin/Garcia/Miller
Bibby/Martin/Garcia/Salmons/Miller
I don't want Bibby playing 40 minutes, but I think there could be some very good situations for him to play 28-30 minutes. I think he should ONLY play with Miller and Martin. The three compliment each other so well. Bibby loves a pck and roll game, and Miller thrives in pick and pop. Plus pick and roll takes a lot of the defensive attention to the high perimeter, opening up driving and cutting lanes for MArtin. Miller and Bibby were both AWFUL last year, but there were lots of signs of what the three of them could do on offense together. Bibby/Martin/Miller is a bad defensive core, but not much worse than Udrih/Martin/Miller.
Around those three, you could play any combination of Garcia/Douby/Salmons/Moore, etc... depending on what you wanted to do.
So- if we wanted to trade Artest and keep Bibby, I could see something like the following being very good.
PG- Bibby- 18; Udrih-30
SG- Martin- 26; Bibby- 10; Douby/Jones- 12
SF- Salmons- 18; Garcia- 20; Martin-10
PF- Moore- 20; Salmons- 18; Garcia-10
C- Miller- 36; Hawes/Williams- 12
Total
Udrih-30
Bibby-28
Martin-36
Douby/Jones-12
Garcia-30
Salmons- 36
Moore-20
Miller- 36
Hawes/Williams- 12
Solid 9 man rotation with Reggie getting to choose between Douby/Jones and Hawes/Williams based on matchup...
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Either way Udrih is someone to definitely keep around whether he's starting or coming off the bench.
bloom
Starter
I agree with Mr.King. I felt that Ron should have had at least sat two more games while Bibby was being integrated and get adjusted to the chemistry.
For me, I think Ron is the 1st person to go. Ron he just kinda stalls the offense more than he keeps it going. I like the guys effort and energy but I don’t like his one-on-one play (which he does a lot of). We need all players involved and I don’t feel he does that. Plus, Ron doesn’t fit this team, I noticed that last year but I think it’s time for him to be traded. He probably is going to opt out of his contract and he’s not the answer to the team right now or going forward. And even though I don’t like crappy trades, if it’s for some good picks, I’m fine…But Mike, I’m not settling for some junk in some other teams old trunk. Please, oh please, no Drew Gooden and/or Jason Williams…I do agree with VF, those guys, as much as Mike has done for us, they just need to be traded. I feel Mike just needs another boost and no coach replacement is going to help him change his perspective. He needs to go to another team and re-energize with new players. I have a feeling that the old Mike is still in him, the guy who would penetrate to the hoop and/or dish out the assist, make some big time shots. But maybe he just needs to get out.
Beno is a good point guard for this team right now and probably going forward for a couple years (even with his turnovers). But we need to find a fast paced back-up PG, yes, a guy similar to Bobby J…I don’t think Douby is that person, I think he has a place on this team as a spot shooter (and I feel he’s going to be a deadly one).
For me, I think Ron is the 1st person to go. Ron he just kinda stalls the offense more than he keeps it going. I like the guys effort and energy but I don’t like his one-on-one play (which he does a lot of). We need all players involved and I don’t feel he does that. Plus, Ron doesn’t fit this team, I noticed that last year but I think it’s time for him to be traded. He probably is going to opt out of his contract and he’s not the answer to the team right now or going forward. And even though I don’t like crappy trades, if it’s for some good picks, I’m fine…But Mike, I’m not settling for some junk in some other teams old trunk. Please, oh please, no Drew Gooden and/or Jason Williams…I do agree with VF, those guys, as much as Mike has done for us, they just need to be traded. I feel Mike just needs another boost and no coach replacement is going to help him change his perspective. He needs to go to another team and re-energize with new players. I have a feeling that the old Mike is still in him, the guy who would penetrate to the hoop and/or dish out the assist, make some big time shots. But maybe he just needs to get out.
Beno is a good point guard for this team right now and probably going forward for a couple years (even with his turnovers). But we need to find a fast paced back-up PG, yes, a guy similar to Bobby J…I don’t think Douby is that person, I think he has a place on this team as a spot shooter (and I feel he’s going to be a deadly one).
nbrans
All-Star
He helped spark the time out of a collective coma and yeah, make the playoffs, where he played well.... and got himself suspended. Let's not forget that he shot 38% while he was with the Kings that first season while launching 5 threes a game.
It wasn't until last season where he really started to get selfish on offense and started acting more like the old Ron, but even still -- it was never really smooth sailing.
S
Submison
Guest
I agree with everyone that Ron Artest and Mike Bibby should be traded now, but it has to be Mike before Ron. Bibby is making $13 million, and likely won't be leaving that money. Ron should be leaving this year for the quest of a higher contract.
I lean towards trading both, if not for chemistry/style reasons, then simply because both those guys are free to leave soon, and may do so.
I'd like to see a lineup which differs quite a lot from the current one, based on both observations and stat lines. The stats haven't ended up looking like the front office expected, I'm sure, but here goes:
Artest->new, young PG or pick + ender vet as filler
Bibby->new, young PF or pick + ender vet as filler
Moore->a pick + ender vet as filler, if anybody will take him
PG: Udrih/???, then ???/Udrih
SG: Martin/Jones/Douby
SF: Salmons/Garcia
PF: Williams/???, then ???/Williams
C: Miller/Hawes
I base this on the productivity of the players, both what we've witnessed, and on things like Roland Rating and +/- stats. Udrih, Martin, Jones, and Salmons all have their problems, but they usually make the TEAM play better. Miller, Williams and Garcia come out looking a little ambiguous, but in the cases of Miller and Williams, Miller is an asset, and Williams is at least neutral, and they are our best options at those positions. Garcia comes out looking not so desirable, apparently "bad Cisco" has screwed up his stats quite a bit, but he's still looking like a potential asset. Douby, Hawes, Moore, SAR and KT are statistical liabilities, but Douby and Hawes are sure to improve, so we invest in the future and give them some minutes anyway.
The only way in which this differs from what most of us seem to be saying, is that it reduces Cisco's relative role, eliminates Mikki's, and greatly increases PT for Jones and Williams. This is not because I think they're great, or ever will be. This is because the stats for Jones make me think that he is contributing things which really make the team better, and that Williams at least does not make the team worse (which cannot be said of any of our other PF options), and that both will improve.
But I'm sure that the above will not happen. :-/
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