rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Since you made the accusation, why not?
But not for negative comments as that's somewhat subjective, but rather " IT sucks".
Isaiah Thomas watch
- Thread starter sdballer
- Start date
But not for negative comments as that's somewhat subjective, but rather " IT sucks".
Chubbs
Starter
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It is NOT about hatred of IT. It only appears that way to those who have not been around for the entire history of discussions.
I'll summarize once more - most of us did not see IT in a starting role. We truly appreciated his spark coming off the bench and said so many, many, many times. To those who championed IT, this was an insult. He had to be our starting PG. The fact he WAS our starting point guard because of a lack of better alternatives was beside the point. He was our starter so he should always be our starter.
Isaiah Thomas brought a lot of this on himself. His ego got in the way of his common sense. And his lifelong battle to overcome his height clouded his judgment. Basically, what IT is doing now in Phoenix is what he made it clear he did not want to do here. He did not want to come off the bench. He stated multiple times that he wanted to be a starter, he expected to be a starter, and he would fight being anything other than a starter.
The debate was fierce and often hostile. It didn't help that IT himself and someone close him would put snide comments on Twitter and then delete them. Most Kings fans held no ill will towards IT until he started sounding like a petulant child. He was drafted #60. If the Kings hadn't drafted him, he might never have had the opportunity to play himself into a multi-million dollar contract.
The lines over time became blurred. Mixed feelings about IT became personal between various posters. The further the defenders went in extolling his virtues, the further the detractors went in pointing out his shortcomings (no pun intended). After time, all reason was lost.
During all this time, it didn't help any that the front office was touting IT as the best thing since sliced bread. And Grant and Jerry? Listening to them wax poetic about the Hustlin' Husky could make a statue hurl.
Most of us wish Isaiah all good things in Phoenix and wherever else he goes. We felt that he simply could not bend to meet our needs and it was best for him and the team that we all part ways. The IT-ites took that as anti-IT rhetoric and some still do.
To be honest, there's only one trade that I personally still resent. I'm reminded of it every time I look into the rafters at Sleep Train. All this IT drama is just dust in the wind.
Thanks for clearing this up for me.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Yep. The Royals should have never traded Oscar Robertson.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I presume you think this will stop the arguments.
This has been explained over and over and the argument rears its ugly head over and over. Your explanation will settle it for the day and thanks for putting out the energy.HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
Along with 28 other GMs who felt the same.
The issue as always is fit and team needs. That some still don't understand that isn't a good look. An undersized, poor defensive guard who looks for his own before setting up others, but can score in bunches when he gets hot, was not worth 7M to all but a single NBA team. The team with the most unusual roster structure and balance in the league is the one who went after him. That says something.
Now if you want to call out the entire league, go right ahead. I may not agree with you, but at least that argument would hold water.
How many GMs in the NBA were in a position to offer 7+ million when Isaiah was signed? Go on, I'll wait.
Saying zero NBA teams save one valued Isaiah at that price shows a profound ignorance of the CBA.
Isaiah at $7m per year is nothing other than a steal. And we let that walk away from under our very nose.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
How is this still even an argument when our current PG has essentially replaced IT's production, played stellar defense, and thus far not had a heroball freakout at a lower price?
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I presume you think this will stop the arguments.
206fan is new. I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
Chubbs
Starter
Speaking of defense, IT has zero combined blocks and steals through 3 games.
Collison is getting a steal (which is a forced turnover doncha know) once per quarter. Some guy needed stats. There you go, some stats to back up IT's non production outside scoring. And 3 apg to top it off, to go along with 2 boards. I mean, you have to play a guy big minutes who brings the total package like that.
Whoops, but then he only scored 10 and played 21 minutes. Weird, cause like I said, he really brings a lot of other things.
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HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
Collison hasn't "essentially replaced" anything. He's scoring less on lower efficiency, hasn't hit a three yet, and is using less possessions so that we can watch more bricks from the rest of the roster but at least has given us a good defensive boost.
But even that is assuming we had to pick one or the other of IT and Collison. The real choice PDA was faced with is IT or trade exception. That trade exception has really done us wonders
Chubbs
Starter
Defense is kinda half the game. You dismiss it as irrelevant.Collison hasn't "essentially replaced" anything. He's scoring less on lower efficiency, hasn't hit a three yet, and is using less possessions so that we can watch more bricks from the rest of the roster but at least has given us a good defensive boost.
But even that is assuming we had to pick one or the other of IT and Collison. The real choice PDA was faced with is IT or trade exception. That trade exception has really done us wonders
It wasn't one or the other, more like anyone but...
Yeah, keeping a guy here who didn't want to be here in a role he didn't want to play here would have done wonders for team morale. -insert whatever cute face emoticon you feel appropriate
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Collison hasn't "essentially replaced" anything. He's scoring less on lower efficiency, hasn't hit a three yet, and is using less possessions so that we can watch more bricks from the rest of the roster but at least has given us a good defensive boost.
But even that is assuming we had to pick one or the other of IT and Collison. The real choice PDA was faced with is IT or trade exception. That trade exception has really done us wonders
"at least"?
Defense is rather important, regardless of how much we've all been brainwashed by years of Paul Westphal, Keith Smart, and MT-IT backcourts.
Siranthony
Starter
Who said he didn't want to be here? I have personally never heard him say that. He said he just wanted to be wanted. If he had stayed and Collison had the starting role im sure it would be tough for him. But I bet he would have played well.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
Some of the best defensive teams in the NBA have less-than-stellar defensive PGs at the helm, but don't let that ruin your narrative. I do have to acknowledge Collison's defensive intensity in fairness. In equal fairness I also have to question how important a PG's individual defense is in the modern NBA.
But even so, the assertion that Collison has replaced Isaiah's production is absurd. He's brought different skills to the table. It would be nice to have both, especially at the price Isaiah was signed for.
I've skimmed this thread lately but not really posted because I think at this point the arguments around IT and the Kings decision not to resign him are running in circles but that's pretty awful.
Whether you agree with it or not, PDA's stated goals for his starting PG weren't just someone who would move the ball and hit open shots but who would pressure opposing PGs and buy in to the team's defensive concepts.
IT is a gifted scorer who can put up points in bunches but he is ball dominant and a limited and often somewhat uninterested defender. I'm not sure how anyone can argue otherwise. In short, I wish we still had him to play a sixth man role but glad I don't have to watch him as the Kings' starting PG.
Chubbs
Starter
No one expected him to replace ITs production. I certainly didn't. That's not the point.
Question all you want, but I think it's bit weird that the defense of ITs lazy d is that somehow it's ok cause other guys suck too. For all his heart, it sure vanishes on the defensive end and he's often caught flat footed.
It's hard to measure a good team defender in any realistic way, but I think the team defense is and will be dramatically improved. Will the Suns go in the other direction? Depends how much they play him I guess. They sure got lit up by a not that great Utah team, But watch the clip. It's not just that he's small, it's that he doesn't seem to think playing defense is part of his job. In that clip you even see him point at someone immediately after the play, like its not his fault. If the guy with the ball goes right by you while you guard no one, that's on you. Just looks like the same issue he had here.
We saw the defense break down time and time again, leading to our bigs needing to adjust, rotations fall apart, and then finger pointing.
And yes, we've been going in circles for quite some time. It's too much fun for me really.
Let's see how the win/losses play out.
J
jdbraver
Guest
Collison has made this team better. Have you watched the game. Even if you value him at IT level or lower, he produces more per salary cap $ than IT.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
i'm happy to no longer be watching Isaiah Thomas watch opposing PG's waltz into the lane and break down the defense
Chubbs
Starter
Isaiah got what he thought he wanted. He wanted to be wanted for what he does. Well, he has it. PHX wanted you buddy. But you won't get the same opportunity you had here. And certainly not the same minutes.
He just can't expect to ever play over 30 mpg game for the Suns, barring injury. Cause while PHX is letting him fire away and just abandon any thought of being a distributor, it's not been for more than half the game. 23.7 mpg at the moment. He should lead the league in points per minute though. He's a great weapon in limited spurts. He's also playing 11 minutes less. And that's when he's shooting 56%.
His assists per game are currently cut in half from last season. His shots per 36 are up to 19.8 vs 15.8. Good for him. Pass less, shoot more. Pizza guy basketball.
He just can't expect to ever play over 30 mpg game for the Suns, barring injury. Cause while PHX is letting him fire away and just abandon any thought of being a distributor, it's not been for more than half the game. 23.7 mpg at the moment. He should lead the league in points per minute though. He's a great weapon in limited spurts. He's also playing 11 minutes less. And that's when he's shooting 56%.
His assists per game are currently cut in half from last season. His shots per 36 are up to 19.8 vs 15.8. Good for him. Pass less, shoot more. Pizza guy basketball.
ElRey
Starter
You know...seeing Nate Robinson today in the Denver game reminds me that Isaiah Thomas is a Nate Robinson type player... a small instant offense PG you bring in from the bench to score you some points. If these guys are your starting PG, you likely will have some issues.
lawlman91
Starter
2016. The Western Conference Finals, game 7. The Sacramento Kings vs. the Phoenix Suns, 100-99 with less than 24 seconds left. Isaiah Thomas with the ball, guarded by Ray McCallum, once were Master and Padawan. The IT isolation begins -- do or die for the Suns. Kings veterans Gay and Cousins have seen this countless times -- Isaiah Thomas will probably shoot the ball, no matter what.
Isaiah Thomas drives past McCallum, and then Gay comes in to help. IT spins, just like Tony Parker does, and gets open. He lays it in... BUT WAIT! Cousins comes in, and then absolutely BLOCKS the orange out of the ball.
The buzzer rings.
Isaiah Thomas falls on his back, then rolls over and faces the ground, knees on the the court. His fists clench, and then punch the floor with fury. Then someone comes to help him up. Isaiah looks up, and sees DeMarcus with his hand out. Get up, and hold your head high. IT looks down, takes a big breath, and then reaches for DeMarcus' hand.
Isaiah Thomas drives past McCallum, and then Gay comes in to help. IT spins, just like Tony Parker does, and gets open. He lays it in... BUT WAIT! Cousins comes in, and then absolutely BLOCKS the orange out of the ball.
The buzzer rings.
Isaiah Thomas falls on his back, then rolls over and faces the ground, knees on the the court. His fists clench, and then punch the floor with fury. Then someone comes to help him up. Isaiah looks up, and sees DeMarcus with his hand out. Get up, and hold your head high. IT looks down, takes a big breath, and then reaches for DeMarcus' hand.
As far as I can remember, a few teams inquired about him (or at least that was what IT's camp was saying), but nobody really offered serious money. IT was lucky there was a weird small ball playing team called Phoenix Suns who gambled on him.
And boy, we are so lucky we didn't get stuck on this me-first/liability in defense midget chucker. Otherwise, we are still going to be that 28 win team and our young guys will never learn how to exert effort in defense.
Albatros
Starter
Don't worry they will be back, we're only 3-1, not 12-1. Lets stay grounded.
Chubbs
Starter
No, we let a backup go for a starter.
One is playing 35.8 mpg, one is playing 23.7 mpg. Tell me again, who is the backup and who is the starter?
And don't you worry, first bad game by Collison the vultures will circle and start talking about ITs superior TS%.
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