HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
Amazing that so many simply can't resist taking shots at Isaiah in random threads on this forum. If mods really are concerned about keeping Isaiah talk in the Isaiah thread, they need to do something about these pot shots.
Isaiah Thomas watch
- Thread starter sdballer
- Start date
I can see objectively looking at the difference in style between Collison and Thomas as starting PGs of the Kings and how it effects the way the team plays but I would definitely agree that some comments are just slamming IT to slam IT. The guy came into Sacramento unheralded, seized the starting PG position through hard work and his ability to score the basketball and kept the starting position because the team failed to bring in anyone good enough to supplant him. Now he's in Phoenix serving his role very well as a sixth man/scoring threat off the bench and Collison is running the type of offense Malone and PDA were looking to implement. That's a win for the Kings and a win for IT as both guys have been put in positions where their skills are desired and required. Not sure why any Kings fan would need to go out of their way to slam a guy who played his heart out while in Sacramento and left not to chase money but because the Kings opted to go another direction and not make a real effort to retain him.
Now, bashing Spencer Hawes? That I'm ALL for.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
You know, I really don't mind others having the opinion that the team is better off without Isaiah. I disagree for several reasons (one of them being that we could have had BOTH Collison and Thomas). What's amusing is that it seems as though the official policy seems to be to keep the Isaiah talk in the Isaiah thread in the General NBA section, but there is nothing being done about all of the useless sniping that tends to derail so many threads.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
All just a matter of heresay. The fact of the matter is, several teams have praised the Suns for grabbing Isaiah at the price they did, Gregg Popovich being one of them.
Its fascinating how Collison playing well validates the opinion of so many to let Isaiah go. Again, its not a choice of Isaiah or Collison. Its Isaiah vs. Trade Exception. And considering that the offense has been godawful to start the season, I'm not sure why the people celebrating having a Trade Exception instead of Isaiah are beating their chests and claiming victory.
All of the garbage that Isaiah wasn't willing to play a role is simply that, garbage. Yes, he wants to start, but he's currently destroying teams off the bench without any semblance of locker room issues. If you're a competitor, you're going to compete. I'd much prefer that attitude over a docile bum who takes and accepts everything given to him.
I'd rather have IT and Darren vs Darren & Sessions. If Thomas had gotten the same contract from the Kings but with ascending salaries instead of descending the difference in salary between he and Sessions would have been a little over $4 million meaning the Kings could have the same roster (Collison was signed using nearly the full MLE) and still be under the luxury tax threshold. Maybe IT's contract would have even been a bit smaller had the Kings gone after him hard from the start.
That said, there's no guarantee that he would have been okay with playing behind Collison and may have bolted for Phoenix anyway. And we don't know whether Gay and Cousins wanted IT back or not. And while a legit sixth man candidate for the Suns, I don't know that it makes complete sense for a Kings team way over the salary cap to pay a backup PG and sixth man between $6-$7 million a year.
Still, while it's very early in the season I think few Kings fans would claim based on four games that they'd rather have Sessions than Thomas as the scoring PG off the bench.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
Why wait? Isaiah Thomas currently is averaging 28 points and 4.6 assists per game per 36 minutes on .659 TS%. He's destroying teams off the bench. The Suns are currently 2-1 to start the year.
You want to act like our offense couldn't use that kind of output? We're bottom of the league in virtually every offensive category not related to drawing free throws.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
To the best of our knowledge, no other team actually extended any offer to him for consideration. So you can state that others may have thought it was a praiseworthy move by the Suns, but nobody else bothered to put their money where their mouth is. And when that is the case, I consider the words to be pretty hollow.
Nobody is "claiming victory" - what is it with you guys painting everything as adversarial? IT did NOT want to return as a bench player (he made that VERY obvious) and he apparently clashed with players/playing style the Kings wanted to keep. He wanted a big paycheck and wanted to start. We were not going to give either to him for the role we envisioned he best fit on our team.
Nobody is saying IT was evil or sucks. He just didn't seem to fit. Is that so hard to understand?
It was HIS choice to accept the Suns offer and not the one extended by the Kings. HE made it. I am glad he appears to be succeeding there. I hope he is happy with his new team and the role they gave him. He is very talented and will be playing in the league a long time. Good for him, as I like the guy.
So let's just move on, shall we?
There are two things I've thought about with regards to this. One is that I'm not sure the Kings were in a position to resign IT without exceeding the hard cap/tax apron. Not at the same time as signing Collison who they viewed as their starting PG going forward. Terry's contract was still on the books, Acy's deal was still on the books etc. Could it have been worked out timing wise? Maybe, but then maybe they don't have Casspi (who has been big so far) or maybe they find out that they can't move Terry's ending contract and are in a financial position they didn't want to find themselves in as teams over the apron lose the ability to do S&T deals or use exceptions. From the raw numbers of today the Kings could have absorbed IT's salary and been below the luxury tax threshold, but logistically I don't know how difficult it would have been to get all those moving parts in order at the time it happened.
The other part of it may go beyond the stats. Thomas is an elite scorer from the PG level and from the stats it seems clear he would be a big boost for this Kings team. But maybe the fit wasn't there. Maybe there were issues behind the scenes. I don't know either way and I'm not speculating that there were, just that it is a possibility. If so, it could have been a chemistry decision. I have no idea. But again, the early returns are the IT is thriving doing what he's best at and the Kings are looking much improved. Win win.
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I might be mistaken here, but I think a good deal of the Isaiah "bashing" we've seen isn't directed at IT himself. It's the carryover from a long frustrating season in which Isaiah's play proved to be divisive amongst the fanbase, sometimes heatedly so. Over the summer there was a great deal of hand-wringing over Thomas' true impact on the Kings and a lot of comments were made suggesting that letting Isaiah go was gutting the team and Collison is a huge downgrade. And it wasn't just coming from fans, that was the national media narrative as well. The season has hardly begun so emotions are still pretty heated over this particular issue. Those of us that fell on the other side of the argument should probably just let it go and enjoy watching this exciting team play, but I also understand the urge to say "now do you see what I was talking about?" in one form or another.
So while I agree with you that Thomas did nothing to warrant bad blood among Kings fans, and I hope he gets cheered heartily when he returns to Sacramento, it doesn't surprise me that 8 solid months of disagreement about a player (and the roots of it extend back much further than that) hasn't evaporated overnight.
Don't believe all that Pops is saying. At his stature, he is supposed to say what is politically correct. For all you know, he is probably laughing inside thinking what a fool Phoenix has become overpaying for a me-first PG.
At a salary much lower than Isaiah got, Collison looks to be way underpaid base on the contribution they both give. Isaiah can only give you instant scoring, then what? Nada. Actually, he is a cancer to our team if you weigh in what our team is trying to accomplish.
For Isaiah, it is all about him. Me-first. Me-first-shoot-first. Me-first-fill that stat sheet first. You guys waste all your energy defending and I will provide scoring because that is sexier. That is where the money is and nevermind that the team is losing.
And you want us to pay $7M for a non-defending, non-facilitating, midget back-up PG who will only play 10-15 minutes a game?
Are you losing your mind?
You want us to accumulate overpayed back-up players?
I don't understand why it is so hard for some to accept he didn't want to be here. Just because he hasn't come out in an interview and said "F the Kings"???
This day and age we have players come and take out ads in the local papers to say thanks for supporting me after they move on. IT moved on and immediately unfollowed his teammates on twitter and started publicly calling them out. Read between the lines. This is behavior by someone with a chip on his shoulder. If we had kept him he'd have been a complete cancer. It appears that he already was. The teams seems way more cohesive with him gone. It's clear addition by subtraction.
This day and age we have players come and take out ads in the local papers to say thanks for supporting me after they move on. IT moved on and immediately unfollowed his teammates on twitter and started publicly calling them out. Read between the lines. This is behavior by someone with a chip on his shoulder. If we had kept him he'd have been a complete cancer. It appears that he already was. The teams seems way more cohesive with him gone. It's clear addition by subtraction.
I completely understand that. And quite honestly I expressed on many occasions that I loved IT as a sixth man/bench scorer and hated him as the starting PG. He was a scorer, not a distributor, a tempo setter or a defender. And while his style just added to a stagnant, selfish offense last year, none of that do I see as his fault. I didn't like the way the team played last season and I'm glad to see a different style at PG but I guess I don't understand the animosity towards IT as a player or person. I'm happy he's succeeding. And I'm VERY happy at what I've seen from this Kings team so far.
It's fun to have a positive outlook on the Kings.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
Do you understand how the CBA works? Teams over the cap are only allowed to offer a specified amount. The teams with capspace looking to contend were teams like Dallas (signed Parsons to the max), Cleveland (signed Lebron), and Miami (resigned Bosh).
Let me put it this way: there were about 5 teams who had standing offers for Lebron James. Does that mean that 25 teams wouldn't want Lebron's services? Absurd. He only got offers from those teams because those were the only teams in a position to tender offers.
As far as we know, Isaiah got an offer from the Suns and took it. While we don't know for sure no offers came from other teams, its an idiotic proposition that nobody wanted him at that price. The logic fails on its face.
Have you read this thread? in particular, some "samples" from the last two pages:
Seriously, do you just have binders or something? There is an absurd amount of animus regarding IT on these forums and it baffles me how you, and so many others, continue to utterly fail to see it.
And yet he goes to a team where he's the backup? Isaiah's message has been consistent. He wants to start. But if he's coming off the bench, he's coming off the bench guns blazing. He started off the bench for the Kings behind Vasquez of all people without problems. He's now off the bench behind Bledsoe and Dragic.
Offensive impotency isn't exactly a style I hope we embrace.
We were in a position to give him exactly what he has in Phoenix and we chose to have a trade exception instead.
Well, the message is mixed. Some really do believe IT is evil and sucks. These are the trolls that seem to start all of this nonsense in the first place. Many more posters wanted Isaiah off the team, and when the pro-IT folks respond to the trolls, these posters come in and complain about the pro-IT folks coming in to defend their position. The moderators on this forum haven't figured out yet to control the discussion, you have to control the trolls. Its not the pro-IT people or the anti-IT people that are the problem.
Yes, because he was offered more money. He was restricted free agent and we could have matched the offer if we wanted. We chose Trade Exception. Lovely.
I'm not sure why you want to "move on" from Isaiah Thomas discussion in the Isaiah Thomas watch thread. If you're tired of Isaiah Thomas talk, you shouldn't be here.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
And the challenge remains for those who keep claiming this, can any of you point out a single post in this forum's history which says IT is "evil" or IT "sucks"?
Repeatedly claiming that's what is occurring without ever providing evidence of it, then arguing against arguments no one has made, is much closer to trolling than the behavior you suggest is trolling by others.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
Its crazy to think he's overpaid. Just absolutely have no feel for salary-to-production ratio. But you seem dead-set in your beliefs so I'm not going to bother with your absurd overly-conclusory argument. I'll just leave you with some things to ponder and if you can construct anything resembling something cohesive I'll respond.
1) You might as well engrave IT's name on the Sixth Man of the Year trophy already. Nobody's even close to challenging.
2) Isaiah is not a bad defender. Just a limited one. We've all seen him D up admirably several times. I'll point to one of last year's games against Steph Curry and John Wall as examples. The stats seem to back this up. Isaiah grades out well in defensive plus/minus and Synergy rates him decently.
3) Limited defensive PGs that are shoot-first can be found on several elite defensive teams around the league.
4) The "cancer" who refuses to come off the bench is currently coming off the bench for a good team.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
One word.....Chemistry
macadocious
Starter
Why are we talking about IT in this thread too?
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
Italicized: Those exact words? Probably not. But I can find instances of hilariously baiting posts with derisive language that suggests posters believe those words.
As for the bolded, when has anyone done this? Please find proof.
Of course I understand how the CBA works. However, he only (AFAIK) received one offer other than ours. No other team publicly went after him with any real enthusiasm, or tried to generate cap space or do a S&T like the Suns did. And it took a while for that to come to fruition. Apparently you know that he was in demand similar to LBJ, despite what information was made public at the time. And I am kidding about your LBJ reference. I get what you are saying, but there was no real hint that he was as highly sought after as you think he was. Just my opinion from what I saw publicly.
Statements that some are happier with Collison than IT is a far cry from "claiming victory" - I think you are taking almost personal offense when none was intended. But I am not in charge of how you choose to react to internet posts about an NBA player no longer on our team.
That he is ultimately a backup where he signed indicates to me that his skillset is indeed best not as a starting guard, or else he possibly would have signed where he could start. After all, that was his repeated public statement, that he wanted to be wanted for who he was (or how he envisioned himself), as a scoring guard that starts on an NBA team. It doesn't appear that the demand was there to meet his repeatedly stated desires.
You say "no problem" when he was here, however you refuse to acknowledge the repeated locker room arguments that were discussed in the local media and the obvious childish statements he kept releasing and deleting via twitter, etc. And, by all accounts, there has been NONE of that at all this season. I'm not saying he was the only issue, but he seemed to be a major one last year if you connect the dots.
Winning more games is a playing style I choose to embrace. If some temporary offensive impotency needs to be tolerated until the offense can gel, I am OK with that.
We were not going to match the salary he got in Phoenix. Apparently that was more important to him that contributing here in Sacramento in the role they wanted for him. His choice!
Please find me numerous posts saying he is "evil and he sucks" - I think you will find lots of posts discussing his tendency for "heroball" and overdribbling/lack of team play, but none claiming ill intent, causing intentional harm to others, or lack of skill or effort (he has HEART!). You are putting those words and terms onto others when I can't recall them ever being prevalent here.
So wait - he was offered more money, and decided his best option was to play somewhere else that fit his playing style for more money as a backup, and you are upset at the posters here who said that he was best suited for a backup role and wanted to keep him here in said role? Why are you so upset about that?
I don't see the need to continually rehash why some are bitter that he is gone at his choosing. That is why I suggest that we "move on" - however, please feel free to dwell on the topic as much as you like. I have better things to do with my time.
I am here because I am a Kings fan, not an IT fan. And, as a moderator, I generally read most of the posting done here to keep tabs on what is going on. I am also entitled to my opinion, am I not?
I am done stating my opinion here on this topic. I am not going to continue debating IT ad nauseum when he no longer plays for this team. Please, everyone, be respectful. And at least try to see the viewpoint of the "other side" - especially when they actually like the guy but just didn't see him fitting in very well given his public statements and the apparent acrimony in the locker room for whatever reason. None of us were in there to see what actually was taking place, however I think we can all draw our own conclusions.
I really did like the guy. Like many others I hoped he would turn into our Bobby Jackson. He just didn't seem to want to accept that (despite where he is now) and wanted more money than we were willing to pay. I don't see how you can be mad at other posters for holding that opinion and wanting him back under those terms.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
First off, I didn't say he was "highly sought after," I'm just saying there are reasons he didn't receive offers, mostly to do with the CBA, and the lack of offers should not be taken as evidence that he wasn't worth that kind of money. Its just a silly line of reasoning. $7 million per year for a Sixth Man of the Year candidate giving you 18/5 in 23 minutes. If you don't think that's a good bargain, and your evidence is the lack of offers, I'm questioning your knowledge of the CBA, plain and simple.
I'm not sure how you consider posts that are happy IT is gone in favor of Collison, thus validating opinions expressed before during the season, as anything other than claiming victory and virtual chest-beating. That being said, its not really a personal offense to me. I think its amusingly misguided given what we've seen thus far this season. I can understand people being happy with Collison's play (I sure as hell am). I'm not sure why people see it as validation for their desire to see Isaiah play elsewhere because it was never a choice between Collison and Thomas. But really, thats not personally bothersome to me at all. Not sure why it came off that why.
Sure, he's a backup where there are two guards better than him. I think Isaiah could start on several teams in the league (where there isn't a better PG present). I believe that he has a strong desire to start. I also believe he will be a reserve if the coach tells him to, like when Vasquez started at the beginning of last year.
The "locker room problems" are often the prognostication of KingsFans.com's famous fortune-tellers, peering into their crystal ball and finding fuzzy interpretations of obscure tweets and quotes taken out of context. You want to "connect the dots" but I question if there were any dots to connect in the first place.
Assuming the offense ever does gel, sure.
Yes, getting a salary bump was his choice. I'm not sure how many people would turn down an increase in salary for the same job. But again the Kings had the right of first refusal. Players sign contracts elsewhere all the time only to have the original team exercise the restricted free agent rights. See Gordon Hayward, Roy Hibbert.
Again, not with those exact words. But you want to argue that there are not potshots being taken all over this forum at Isaiah Thomas at seemingly random intervals? You want to pretend that, at this exact moment, there isn't a pinned thread by a moderator demanding people to stop taking shots at Thomas? Ok.
Nobody's upset! I'm laughing my head off, honestly. I disagree with that opinion. Its fine. I think its amusing that shots are being taken at Isaiah Thomas across the forum where the same posters are adamant about keeping all Isaiah Thomas talk in one thread. It seems like posters are incapable of praising Darren Collison without taking a shot at last year's PG.
Ok, well I personally don't have issues discussing whether letting Isaiah go for a measly trade exception was a good deal or not. I personally am a busy guy myself and check in from time to time and it makes for good discussion, which is why I'm glad there is a thread in the NBA forum on it. And sure you're entitled to your opinion but you're also suspect to having that opinion dissected in interesting ways
3 games into the season, really? He's only looked good in two of those games and one was against the helpless Lakers.
I wish him well in Phoenix but c'mon. May as well crown the Kings champions based on that logic?
As for point 4, he has stated repeatedly in Phoenix that he wants to start there too. Right now they have two options that are better suited as starters but again, instead of saying 3 games in that everything is rosy and he is content as 6th man, wait as the season wears on and see if he has truly embraced this role or not.
Odds are he wasn't going to do it in Sacramento. Although not entirely his fault, since people like Zach Lowe have egged him on, the memo so far is that the Kings replaced him with a "significantly lesser talent", so if that is how he views it, he wasn't going to be content being 6th man here no matter what Collison was doing.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
You don't happen to play dodge ball in your spare time, do you?
"IT is evil and IT sucks".
Produce even one post which says just that. And given that seems to be the premise of a portion of your argument, it's ironic you're the one asking for proof.
Well, the message is mixed. Some really do believe IT is evil and sucks. These are the trolls that seem to start all of this nonsense in the first place. Many more posters wanted Isaiah off the team, and when the pro-IT folks respond to the trolls, these posters come in and complain about the pro-IT folks coming in to defend their position.
You're claiming there's trolls which believe IT is evil and sucks? Where are they? Then you claim these posters/trolls complain about pro-IT folks defending their position? Where is this dialogue?
It's not the "I believe IT would have been a good 6th man for us if he would have bought into the role" argument which has you all worked up, as why would that work anyone up, but rather this apparent hatred for IT has you all worked up, which currently you can't produce any evidence of when asked for it.
What he said.
I haven't weighed in on any of this because I think this level of debate about a former guy who won't help us win any games this year is silly. I don't have a horse in this race- I liked IT, I like DC, and I just want to win games.
But the bold comment above, while true in a technical sense, is not true in reality. Anyone arguing that the decision was IT vs. a Trade Exception is creating a straw man to troll people. We were never going to have IT and DC. IT would not have resigned here to be the 6th man. He wanted to start. He still wants to start in Phoenix. He will always play to usurp the starter. He never bought into being a bench guy here (and often for good reason because he was better than the starter), but he always played to prove he should be the starter, not to be a bench guy. I respect him for that, but I don't think you were going to resign him to be DC's backup.
Nor were you going to sign DC to back up IT. DC has made it clear that one of the main reasons he signed with us is because we were giving him the chance to be the starter. You don't leave LAC, backing up Chris Paul and playing for championships to come to Sacramento, back up IT, and try to win 35 games. It just doesn't happen.
So while technically you could have had the money to make it work to have both, it never would have worked in reality. The front office had to make a choice DC or IT. Once they made that choice, they got what they could for IT (which was the trade exception). Maybe they could have gotten more, maybe they should have played their cards better, etc..., but they got the trade exception because they chose DC over IT, and knew they couldn't have both on the team for chemistry purposes.
So the question IS ACTUALLY whether you would rather have IT or DC. We did the IT "starting point guard" thing and it didn't work out great. I don't think you win more than 40 games with IT-Cousins-Gay. Maybe you win even less with DC, but I don't want to be capped out at 40 games with IT as my point guard. I would rather roll the dice with a worse scorer and better floor general and see what happens. It is too bad it happened the way it did, because I think IT is a perfect sixth man, but don't fool yourself into thinking the front office's decision was not IT or DC. It clearly was.
I originally quoted your entire post because there is quite a bit worth considering and some very good thought throughout but this one quote was something I hadn't even been thinking of. Yes, as a thought experiment there might have been a way to sign both Collison and IT numbers wise under the hard cap/apron. And I'm not quite sure that's even true as the Kings would have had to match Phoenix's offer which started year one with the highest salary (a bit over $7 million) AND they would have had to execute all the cost savings moves (Terry, Acy, etc) at the same time they were convincing Collison to take nearly the full MLE to leave LA for Sacramento.
But taking it out of the realm of pure number crunching, the fact remains that while the Kings had the ability to match any offer for Thomas, Collison had to be persuaded to sign with the Kings of his own volition. If PDA gave assurances that he would start and IT would come off the bench, would he still sign? Would you if you were him? All the words in the world wouldn't change the fact that you are being told you're the starter while the guy that is supposed to be your backup has started most of his games with the Kings and is going to sign a contract bigger than the one you're getting. That'd be a huge red flag to me and if I thought I'd end up on the bench I'd likely rather do it in L.A. behind Chris Paul and with a new mega billionaire owner.
I wish we had Collison as the starter and IT as the sixth man. I really do. But now that I think more about it I don't think it was ever going to happen for exactly the reasons laid out above. So I guess it really does come down to Collison vs Thomas. And Thomas is undeniably and overwhelmingly better as a scorer - he's an elite scorer at the PG spot but the decision was to go a different direction. Through four games I like the style of this team better than what I watched last year. I think it will lead to more wins. Part of that is improvements from Gay and Cousins but without a doubt a large percentage is from what Darren Collison brings to the table as a willing passer and active defender.
Chubbs
Starter
Fwiw, isaiah is against the lakers again tonight. His numbers through 4 games could be really ridiculous if he shreds them again. Look up hapless, and it's a picture of the 2014-2015 lakers.
I don't hate the guy, and I will be watching tonight. It should be quite a show. I just didn't like his style for this team the way it is built. It's as simple as that.
I don't hate the guy, and I will be watching tonight. It should be quite a show. I just didn't like his style for this team the way it is built. It's as simple as that.
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