Isaiah Thomas revisited...

[Padrino]

I just like how some people on here dismiss what IT is doing right now because you will never win a ring with him as your best player, so anything he does is irrelevant. Like we will magically go from 30 win dumpster fire to chamionship contender. I would much rather have what the Celtics have right now than hold on to some pipe dream that you guys have. Yeah IT will never be THE guy on a championship team, but he is getting inavluable playoff mettle right now while our "better guy in town" is on vacation. He also is paid the same as Marco Bellinelli and produces like a top 10 PG and is an all star. No way we couldnt use someone like that on this team. Leadership, grit, heart, soul of a team, professionalism, the Sacramento Kings surely dont lack any of that. What a joke.

if you want what the celtics have, than you have to hire a defense-first head coach, bring in some legitimate perimeter defenders, and draft much better than the kings have in the last half-decade. put boogie on that squad, with their strong team-wide culture, and you'd likely see great success. put IT back in sacramento under the material conditions of dysfunction that have ruled the day here for so many years, and he wouldn't be participating in the playoffs like he is in boston, whether cousins was still here or not, and regardless of all that "leadership, grit, heart, soul of a team, and professionalism." it's as if some of you want to conveniently forget that isaiah thomas was just as much a part of a few sub-30 win kings seasons as cousins was, and that the success thomas has achieved in boston is very much because he's been given the opportunity to play for a first-rate organization that is well-managed, that is well-coached, that values defense, and that plays like a team. if cousins were to leave sacramento and achieve a similar kind of success, it would undoubtedly be for some of the same reasons...

 

[jcwkings]

Go be a fan of the Celtics then. Let's act like this team would have magically been in the playoffs with IT in town. Let's act like he would have shored up the defensive issues this team has. Let's act like he would have helped George Karl all of sudden act like a HoF coach again. Not dismissing what he is doing but he is VERY fortunate to be on a team that is well coached abd ferocious defensively. They would have gone to the playoffs whether or not IT was on that team.

I really doubt they make the playoffs without IT. His penetration and scoring ability is key to getting open spot up shots to guys like Crowder, and Bradley, that is a team that needs IT's scoring punch because no one else on that team can create on a consistent basis like Thomas can, pretty much at will at this point. How good were they prior to acquiring IT, not very. He has been the catalyst of that team on multiple levels.

 

[Henkel]

Which also explains he didn't work out with the Kings. He needs the ball; in Sacramento, he couldn't have it. And he shouldn't have had it.

In Boston, he's on a team where all of him teammates are willing to let IT do what IT does. Good for him, I'm happy for him. And I'm still not sure why you felt the need to throw in that passive-aggressive shade at Boogie just to give IT his props?

They're giving Turners and Smarts the ball and having them set up the offense a lot more the last couple of games. Instead of having Isaiah initiate the offense they're using him off the ball after he struggled in isolation the first couple of games. He's a all around great offensive player and Stevens has found more ways to use him. As they add talent I expect that to continue. That could mean he's going to have to settle into a Nick Van Exel sixth man role long term. Those are the sacrifices players, even ones with big egos, make to win and play for good coaches. And since that's where the anti IT crowd have moved the goal post we'll just have to wait and see because Boston defiantly has the resources to add a lot of talent.

The issue was never IT can't play with Cousins, because despite all the complaining about selfishness both played well when on the floor together. The problem was IT and Evans didn't work when Smart was forcing Tyreke off the ball either at sg or sf. That was never going to be where Evans was at his best. He had to have the ball in his hands, which could of worked with Isaiah in the back court just like it's working with Turner now. At least I'm confident a great coach like Stevens could of made that duo successful.

 

[The_Jamal]

Go be a fan of the Celtics then. Let's act like this team would have magically been in the playoffs with IT in town. Let's act like he would have shored up the defensive issues this team has. Let's act like he would have helped George Karl all of sudden act like a HoF coach again. Not dismissing what he is doing but he is VERY fortunate to be on a team that is well coached abd ferocious defensively. They would have gone to the playoffs whether or not IT was on that team.

blah, blah blah.

Some people just can't admit when they're completely and utterly wrong. IT was the best player on a 48 win team and is leading the Celtics against the playoff and battle tested Hawks squad.

But yeah, let's add all these caveats of "Oh, I don't think he could coexist with another star" "He's so lucky he found the Celtics." "He'll end up as Nick Van Exel." "The Celtics aren't winning because of Isaiah Thomas" It's complete an utter rubbish.

The Kings constantly undermined Thomas is whole time here and never let him really run the team with Boogie. What's so stupid is we had the hard part figured out; 2 top tier offensive options who could create their own shot and play well off one another. Instead of focusing on complimentary pieces and shoring up the defense, we screwed around with "stars" like Rondo and Gay

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Thomas was immature while he was here and went to Phoenix and helped blow up that whole squad. Boston is a better situation for him but without a doubt he's also learned along the way. I really don't care to find out what happened in the alternate universe where he was resigned and catered to.

 

[jcwkings]

Thomas was immature while he was here and went to Phoenix and helped blow up that whole squad. Boston is a better situation for him but without a doubt he's also learned along the way. I really don't care to find out what happened in the alternate universe where he was resigned and catered to.

How was he immature? Did he ever curse out the coach? Sleepwalk through games? Constantly chirp and yell at refs? Was he a bad teammate? He was a guy that was chosen 60th in the draft was playing for pennies in terms of production. He was a guy that competed his damn tail off for Sacramento, came to play every game and had a killer mentality. I love guys with his mentality, a true competitor. Think you should be starting over me? Come and outplay me day in and day out. Why should he settle for a bench role when he constantly out plays whoever is put in front of him. Would you say that about any other player if they weren't 5'9? The guy is a beast, a true professional, great leader, heart of a lion, competitive freak, everything intangible that the greats had, he has in spades. I'm not saying he will be an all time great, but he will go down as the greatest little man to ever lace them up, if you don't consider Iverson and Isiah little men.

 

[jcwkings]

blah, blah blah.

Some people just can't admit when they're completely and utterly wrong. IT was the best player on a 48 win team and is leading the Celtics against the playoff and battle tested Hawks squad.

But yeah, let's add all these caveats of "Oh, I don't think he could coexist with another star" "He's so lucky he found the Celtics." "He'll end up as Nick Van Exel." "The Celtics aren't winning because of Isaiah Thomas" It's complete an utter rubbish.

The Kings constantly undermined Thomas is whole time here and never let him really run the team with Boogie. What's so stupid is we had the hard part figured out; 2 top tier offensive options who could create their own shot and play well off one another. Instead of focusing on complimentary pieces and shoring up the defense, we screwed around with "stars" like Rondo and Gay

I agree, Isaiah is clearly a better player than Rudy at this point. The only thing that Rudy has over Isaiah is height. If you look back at that big 3 of Cousins, Isaiah and Rudy, we really screwed ourselves because we kept the two guys whose intagibles are their biggest weakness. We kept the two guys in the league that you look at in a vacuum and say "damn those guys have a ton of talent, how come their teams always stink?" Isaiah is actually the PERFECT guy to pair with Cousins because with Isaiah Cousins doesn't have to worry about being a great leader, inspiring the team etc. Isaiah has that covered for days, all Cousins would have to do is dominate and not have to worry about that stuff. Cousins isn't a good leader, hey guess what? so isn't Kevin Durant really, but he has Russell Westbrook to do that. Cousins is an alpha dog on the court, IT is an alpha dog on and off the court and in the lockerroom. That is something this team sorely lacks.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

He was constantly publicly bickering about his spot with the team. That's immature and unprofessional. I liked the guy but he was a clubhouse cancer. Now I could care less who he couldn't get on with if Boogie was his best buddy, but seems pretty clear that was anything but the case.

 

[jcwkings]

He was constantly publicly bickering about his spot with the team. That's immature and unprofessional. I liked the guy but he was a clubhouse cancer. Now I could care less who he couldn't get on with if Boogie was his best buddy, but seems pretty clear that was anything but the case.

"Clubhouse cancer" hahahahaha wow. So I guess he should have just accepted playing behind such great guards as Jimmer Freddette, Aaron Brooks, Grievis Vasquez? He was a guy that was drafted 60th making less than a million a year on a dumpster fire of a franchise. He was playing for his NBA career, why should he accept those scrubs getting in his way? He is an all star now on a playoff team that plays their guts out every night. He obviously has done something right. But yeah he probably was a cancer, thats probably why they traded him for Alex Oriahki, to let the cancer go and cure this franchise. the 2015-16 Kings proved that Isaiah Thomas was the cancer all along.

 

[KingMilz]

Thomas was immature while he was here and went to Phoenix and helped blow up that whole squad. Boston is a better situation for him but without a doubt he's also learned along the way. I really don't care to find out what happened in the alternate universe where he was resigned and catered to.

No that was the GM and the GM even came out and said he regrets trading Thomas......

 

[jcwkings]

No that was the GM and the GM even came out and said he regrets trading Thomas......

And as it turns out he is better than Dragic and Bledsoe.

 

[jcwkings]

He was constantly publicly bickering about his spot with the team. That's immature and unprofessional. I liked the guy but he was a clubhouse cancer. Now I could care less who he couldn't get on with if Boogie was his best buddy, but seems pretty clear that was anything but the case.

BTW I love how you call IT a cancer for being immature and unprofessional(not true at all), yet can defend Boogie to the end when he is clearly extremely immature and at times very unprofessional. Are you going to call him a cancer also? Or does he get a pass because he is 6'11 270 and can put up 24 and 11 in his sleep? Do you ever wonder how good Cousins could be if he was more mature and professional? If Isaiah Thomas was immature and unprofessional he would be out of the league, not an all star on a playoff team. If Cousins is immature and unprofessional he can be the best player on a bad team and put up great numbers.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

BTW I love how you call IT a cancer for being immature and unprofessional(not true at all), yet can defend Boogie to the end when he is clearly extremely immature and at times very unprofessional. Are you going to call him a cancer also? Or does he get a pass because he is 6'11 270 and can put up 24 and 11 in his sleep? Do you ever wonder how good Cousins could be if he was more mature and professional? If Isaiah Thomas was immature and unprofessional he would be out of the league, not an all star on a playoff team. If Cousins is immature and unprofessional he can be the best player on a bad team and put up great numbers.

Well yes, Boogie's size and the fact that he can do it in his sleep do give him a bit of a pass. But Boogie always has his teammates backs (see: Curry, Seth) while IT constantly seems to get in pee contests with his teammates. Now that he's on his third team and has matured a bit and that doesn't have a top 5 talent that he can't mesh with, things are better. That's wasn't the case in Sacramento.

I'm giving him credit for evolving, something that clearly wasn't happening here, why can't some people accept that if he had stayed with this team he'd never have grown as a player and we'd all be worse off for it?

 

[Glenn]

Well yes, Boogie's size and the fact that he can do it in his sleep do give him a bit of a pass. But Boogie always has his teammates backs (see: Curry, Seth) while IT constantly seems to get in pee contests with his teammates. Now that he's on his third team and has matured a bit and that doesn't have a top 5 talent that he can't mesh with, things are better. That's wasn't the case in Sacramento.

I'm giving him credit for evolving, something that clearly wasn't happening here, why can't some people accept that if he had stayed with this team he'd never have grown as a player and we'd all be worse off for it?

I think you are as spot on as possible in predicting the future. There is nothing wrong with IT as a person. I just thought he caused a problem with his amazing skill set that cut out Boogie at times. I also happen to be one of those rare people who was not unhappy to see Tyreke go. Tyreke is a remarkable athlete. His skill set made him an awkward fit on the Kings.

I have nothing personal against both of them.

 

[jcwkings]

I think you are as spot on as possible in predicting the future. There is nothing wrong with IT as a person. I just thought he caused a problem with his amazing skill set that cut out Boogie at times. I also happen to be one of those rare people who was not unhappy to see Tyreke go. Tyreke is a remarkable athlete. His skill set made him an awkward fit on the Kings.

I have nothing personal against both of them.

Yep with IT and Tyreke out the door it liberated Cousins to break 30 wins. Had to clear the dead weight in order to make progress. Dont worry guys by 2022 we might break 40 wins but i'll settle for 37 and the privelage to watch a HOF career.

 

[Glenn]

Yep with IT and Tyreke out the door it liberated Cousins to break 30 wins. Had to clear the dead weight in order to make progress. Dont worry guys by 2022 we might break 40 wins but i'll settle for 37 and the privelage to watch a HOF career.

Are you picking on what I said? Some pieces fit and some don't . I think Seth will fit better in the team concept of the game than IT.

If you are picking at me, say it straight on and let's have at it. Come to think of it, as I didn't say most of what you are implying, perhaps you are addressing your note to someone else. Insinuating that anyone on this forum thought that IT and Tyreke were dead weight is preposterous.

 

[Bricklayer]

So many children in one thread.

Suffice it to say that if Brad Stevens were our coach this year and we carried the 5th best teamwide DRTG in the league, we too would have won 48 games and been in the playoffs.

There's a lot less magic involved then people like to pretend there is. Play no defense, hire coaches who don't get that, then see no playoffs. Not if you're IT, Cuz, A.D., Curry, Westbrook last year, almost Harden this year, whoever. Go to a team and coach who stresses and preaches defense and voila! all of a sudden you become a "winner" who "gets it".

IT is there basically playing a poor man's A.I.. There is a cap to how far that can carry you, but it is always an approach that done correctly can make you a lower tier playoff team. He is allowed to freelance and score and is the one guy where they don't sweat the defense too much, because he is buying them enough points that they can win games with their D. But by its very nature it begs the question that there has always been with IT, A.I. or any of those guys -- can they play well with others? Can they submit their egos? IT never has. He's still the same guy. It caused tension here, tension in Phoenix, but he just finally got what he wanted for himself in Boston. Its not important for today or tomorrow because here they are. Its only an important observation when the kvetching and revisionism kicks in. What's happening now was always a high end IT possibility. It still doesn't answer the questions that make him a problematic figure. As Boston tries to take the next step in the next few years they are more likely to run into those issues. I think they can make one last defensive improvement if they can score a shotblocker in the middle, but after that their way forward is going to have to be to become more potent offensively, and that's going to involve bringing in guys who want ITs ball. That will be the test. Not one he would have passed at 23 BTW. But maybe by 28-29 or some such the me will have mellowed, the accolades will have dulled the relentless pursuit of just dues, etc.

 

[Telemachus]

Yep with IT and Tyreke out the door it liberated Cousins to break 30 wins. Had to clear the dead weight in order to make progress. Dont worry guys by 2022 we might break 40 wins but i'll settle for 37 and the privelage to watch a HOF career.

When you ignore what was said just to try to get your agenda across, it all starts to turn to static.

 

[jcwkings]

When you ignore what was said just to try to get your agenda across, it all starts to turn to static.

The point is that we are in no position to give talent away, let alone for absolutely nothing like we did with Tyreke and especially IT. To argue that those guys needed to go so that Cousins can "get his" is absurd. Six year of Cousins "getting his" has got us nowhere but mediocrity. I would much rather have guys like IT and to a lesser degree Tyreke around and force the players along with coaching to make it work team wise, than stupidly give talent away because "they don't fit with Cousins". How do you know they "don't fit"? The Kings teams that had IT and Tyreke were glorified pick up ball teams that rolled the ball out there and ran up and down. We never saw IT and Cousins together in a structured system. The closest was the Malone year with Rudy acquired through trade. Guess what, that team was pretty good despite it literally being a three man team that was thrown together midseason. I think with a core of IT and Cousins(with Rudy being expendable imo) the team would be in a better situation right now. Giving away IT and firing Malone set this team back a ton.

 

[Telemachus]

The point is that we are in no position to give talent away, let alone for absolutely nothing like we did with Tyreke and especially IT. To argue that those guys needed to go so that Cousins can "get his" is absurd. Six year of Cousins "getting his" has got us nowhere but mediocrity. I would much rather have guys like IT and to a lesser degree Tyreke around and force the players along with coaching to make it work team wise, than stupidly give talent away because "they don't fit with Cousins". How do you know they "don't fit"? The Kings teams that had IT and Tyreke were glorified pick up ball teams that rolled the ball out there and ran up and down. We never saw IT and Cousins together in a structured system. The closest was the Malone year with Rudy acquired through trade. Guess what, that team was pretty good despite it literally being a three man team that was thrown together midseason. I think with a core of IT and Cousins(with Rudy being expendable imo) the team would be in a better situation right now. Giving away IT and firing Malone set this team back a ton.

The problem I am having is that you keep inferring certain ideas onto other posters that they didn't say.

There were plenty of people around here on both sides when it came to keeping or moving both Tyreke and IT. However, I can't think of ANY who were thrilled with what we got back for either.
For instance, I felt IT would work best in a 6th man role, but he wanted no part of it. So I wasn't unhappy with him going elsewhere. But getting back practically nothing in return ticked me off.
Now him having success in Boston has NOTHING to do with Cousins, which seems to be something you can't get past. If their roles were reversed, Boston would still be in the playoffs and Sacramento would still be around a 30 win team. It is the organization and coaching that are the difference.
I happen to think that Vlade has started the process to turn the organization around, and hopefully we will get a good Coach (who preaches defense) to complete the process. Then the Kings will be in the playoffs as well.

 

[LA King Fan II]

Isaiah is a good player and has a big ol heart. Not Steph Curry by a longshot which is fine. I hate the sight of this thread and the thought that it is a player of that caliber that got away.

Same goes for Malone IMO.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Can we all just remind ourselves that HE DID NOT WANT TO BE HERE.

 

[ESP47]

We wouldn't be any better if we had Isaiah right now. We still don't have a SG who can defend so our defense would still be swiss cheese and we would still be at the bottom of the league in defense.

 

[Brick Wall]

blah, blah blah.

Some people just can't admit when they're completely and utterly wrong. IT was the best player on a 48 win team and is leading the Celtics against the playoff and battle tested Hawks squad.

But yeah, let's add all these caveats of "Oh, I don't think he could coexist with another star" "He's so lucky he found the Celtics." "He'll end up as Nick Van Exel." "The Celtics aren't winning because of Isaiah Thomas" It's complete an utter rubbish.

The Kings constantly undermined Thomas is whole time here and never let him really run the team with Boogie. What's so stupid is we had the hard part figured out; 2 top tier offensive options who could create their own shot and play well off one another. Instead of focusing on complimentary pieces and shoring up the defense, we screwed around with "stars" like Rondo and Gay

I'm not ready to say that IT is the best player on the Celtics. I mean, it goes without saying that he's their leading scorer, but that's not necessarily the same thing. Like, was Rip Hamilton the best player on the '04 Pistons? Was Stoudemire the best player on the '05 Suns? Hell, does anyone in the world think that Andrew Wiggins is a better player than KAT?

Mind you, I'm not saying for sure that he's not, I'm just saying that it's not a closed discussion; I think a case could be made that either Jae Crowder or Avery Bradley are better players.