I.T was not the problem and I think it's even more obvious now. THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH A CENTER LEADING THE LEAGUE IN SHOTS PER GAME WHILE SHOOTING 44% FROM THE FIELD. DMC needs to play center like one, not like he is a shooting guard. At this pace, his career will turn out like the likes of T-Mac, his teammate Rudy.
Isaiah Thomas revisited...
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I.T is taking 16 shots per game, as the leading shot taker. DMC is taking 20. I.T is a P.G, DMC is a center. If you do not see a problem with DMC shooting 44% while taking 20 shots then you obviously don't want this team to get better.. DMC needs to improve his shot selection, as a center he should be around 50% fg. This team will continue to suck for a long time, DMC must be traded or reform. He is talented no doubt but he's not going to make the kings a 50 win team.
I agree completely that he needs to up his efficiency but the problem with this team isn't FG%. It's defense. I.T. is a liability on defense and it's only being masked right now by the plethora of solid defensive wings that the Celtics have.
The Kings are 4th in the league in FG%, only behind San Antonio, Golden State and OKC. The only difference is that we give up roughly 2 points per game more than we score and they score roughly 10 points per game more than they give up.
The Kings are 4th in the league in FG%, only behind San Antonio, Golden State and OKC. The only difference is that we give up roughly 2 points per game more than we score and they score roughly 10 points per game more than they give up.
Because he is better?
Isaiah Thomas TS%: .560
DeMarcus Cousins TS%: .541
And Rajon Rondo (since iirc you said he scored more efficiently in an earlier post) TS%: .505
EDIT: reading more into the discussion I guess you were going strictly by FG% because that's what the guy you were debating used, it's just that I don't see why the "inefficient chucker" comments comes up whenever IT is named when in fact he is more efficient than any of our "big 3" (Rudy is at .548 TS%).
Isaiah Thomas TS%: .560
DeMarcus Cousins TS%: .541
And Rajon Rondo (since iirc you said he scored more efficiently in an earlier post) TS%: .505
EDIT: reading more into the discussion I guess you were going strictly by FG% because that's what the guy you were debating used, it's just that I don't see why the "inefficient chucker" comments comes up whenever IT is named when in fact he is more efficient than any of our "big 3" (Rudy is at .548 TS%).
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Using FG% really makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about. You should be using TS%. Cousins TS% during a season when he has been tragically misused is 54%. Hakeem, Duncan, & Ewing's career averages for TS% are 55%. Cousins ability to hit the three and get to the line bring up his TS% dramatically. Focusing on just his FG% is intentionally overlooking his entire efficiency.
Having said that, TS% still favors Thomas in showing that he's more efficient at scoring the ball than Cousins, but that's not the whole story. The way I see it is that Thomas plays within himself more than Cousins does. As far as offensive efficiency goes, a Thomas who plays within himself > a Cousins who forces the issue. However, a Cousins who plays within himself >>> a Thomas who plays within himself. What this means is that Cousins has much more potential than Thomas. If Cousins continues to become more patient & takes what the defense gives him, Thomas isn't even close to him.
So excuse us for siding with the player who has more upside and has a much better chance at leading us to a championship if he settles into this type of play style. It's possible that Cousins doesn't figure it out, but Cousins is an emotional player. He gets frustrated & that frustration only multiplies when surrounding by inadequate or ill-fitting talent (or coaching). The less frustrated he is and the more he matures, the higher likelihood he becomes the player we all know he can be.
Having said that, TS% still favors Thomas in showing that he's more efficient at scoring the ball than Cousins, but that's not the whole story. The way I see it is that Thomas plays within himself more than Cousins does. As far as offensive efficiency goes, a Thomas who plays within himself > a Cousins who forces the issue. However, a Cousins who plays within himself >>> a Thomas who plays within himself. What this means is that Cousins has much more potential than Thomas. If Cousins continues to become more patient & takes what the defense gives him, Thomas isn't even close to him.
So excuse us for siding with the player who has more upside and has a much better chance at leading us to a championship if he settles into this type of play style. It's possible that Cousins doesn't figure it out, but Cousins is an emotional player. He gets frustrated & that frustration only multiplies when surrounding by inadequate or ill-fitting talent (or coaching). The less frustrated he is and the more he matures, the higher likelihood he becomes the player we all know he can be.
I am by no means saying I.T has a greater potential than DMC, that's not the discussion. The point is, I.T is much better than what people give him credit for. He's much more important to his team than Cuzco is to the Kings. Without I.T, Boston won't be in their current position, and wouldn't have made the playoff last year. Without DMC, the Kings may actually be better considering the type of coach they have..
True Shooting % isn't the end-all-be-all of scoring efficiency. It is one measure, and it has it's uses, but to say one player is a better shooter purely because of TS% without thinking about what it is measuring is a little lazy in the analysis department. If DeMarcus (and Rajon) are shooting a better percentage from the floor and from three point line than IT yet both have a lower TS% what could be the possible cause? The only other factor is free throw shooting.
IT is excellent from the line. He has taken 363 free throws this year and made 326 (90%)
DeMarcus is above average for a center, but could still improve. He has taken 463 free throws and made 337 (73%). That's right at his career average.
Rondo as we all know is a poor free throw shooter. It's the worst aspect of his game (especially now that he has improved his three point shooting). He's taken only 119 free throws and made 69 (58%).
So... when you say that Isaiah is a better shooter really what you're saying is that he's a better free throw shooter and he gets to the line often enough (6.4 attempts per game) for his 90% shooting there to really impact the game.
Let's extrapolate a little more:
I've highlighted all of the relevant shooting percentages. Rondo is better from 3pt range, better from 2pt range, and better overall. Isaiah is a lot better from the free throw line (and he's 11th in the league in free throw attempts).
Typically what separates a star player from a really good roleplayer is that star players get to the line a lot. The only MVP candidate who isn't solidly in the top 20 for free throw attempts is Stephen Curry, but of course he leads the pack by a mile in 3pt FG attempted and made so he's making his living there. So there's a reason why stats like TS% and PER skew favorably toward players who take (and make) a lot of free throws. But this is where I have a problem -- all past history aside (because really that amounts to inherent bias) does it make sense to say that Isaiah is a better shooter this year when Rondo is outpacing him in every category except free throw shooting?
None of this is meant to say that IT isn't good at what he does and there are marks like PER and TS% which do reflect his impact on the game as a scorer. Back to my original argument though, we had a problem here with Isaiah and DeMarcus because there weren't enough possessions to go around. Isaiah has bumped his usage % even higher this year to 28.8. DeMarcus is at an all-time high this year and leads the league at 35.4. It wasn't going to work. You could say that DeMarcus needs to shoot less and pass more, which is fair, but that doesn't mean we would be better if we still had Isaiah. DeMarcus does so much more than simply score the ball. He's also an intimidating defensive presence and one of the best rebounders in the league. If it comes down to one or the other, you have to go with the big man. And a PG with a lower usage (19.2%) and a knack for leading people into high percentage shots is the right kind of compliment to a high usage scoring center.
IT is excellent from the line. He has taken 363 free throws this year and made 326 (90%)
DeMarcus is above average for a center, but could still improve. He has taken 463 free throws and made 337 (73%). That's right at his career average.
Rondo as we all know is a poor free throw shooter. It's the worst aspect of his game (especially now that he has improved his three point shooting). He's taken only 119 free throws and made 69 (58%).
So... when you say that Isaiah is a better shooter really what you're saying is that he's a better free throw shooter and he gets to the line often enough (6.4 attempts per game) for his 90% shooting there to really impact the game.
Let's extrapolate a little more:
I've highlighted all of the relevant shooting percentages. Rondo is better from 3pt range, better from 2pt range, and better overall. Isaiah is a lot better from the free throw line (and he's 11th in the league in free throw attempts).
Typically what separates a star player from a really good roleplayer is that star players get to the line a lot. The only MVP candidate who isn't solidly in the top 20 for free throw attempts is Stephen Curry, but of course he leads the pack by a mile in 3pt FG attempted and made so he's making his living there. So there's a reason why stats like TS% and PER skew favorably toward players who take (and make) a lot of free throws. But this is where I have a problem -- all past history aside (because really that amounts to inherent bias) does it make sense to say that Isaiah is a better shooter this year when Rondo is outpacing him in every category except free throw shooting?
None of this is meant to say that IT isn't good at what he does and there are marks like PER and TS% which do reflect his impact on the game as a scorer. Back to my original argument though, we had a problem here with Isaiah and DeMarcus because there weren't enough possessions to go around. Isaiah has bumped his usage % even higher this year to 28.8. DeMarcus is at an all-time high this year and leads the league at 35.4. It wasn't going to work. You could say that DeMarcus needs to shoot less and pass more, which is fair, but that doesn't mean we would be better if we still had Isaiah. DeMarcus does so much more than simply score the ball. He's also an intimidating defensive presence and one of the best rebounders in the league. If it comes down to one or the other, you have to go with the big man. And a PG with a lower usage (19.2%) and a knack for leading people into high percentage shots is the right kind of compliment to a high usage scoring center.
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Your last point is debatable, but I'll buy it as an indictment of George Karl for taking a low post bruiser and playing him out on the perimeter like he's Kevin Durant. I'm not sure where you come up with "IT is much more important to his team than Cousins" though. That sounds like the kindof statement you need to back up with some kind of data because on the surface I'll go with the guy who is 4th in the league in both PPG and RPG while also leading his team in Defensive Rating by a wide margin. Unless you were intending to refer to the ancient Incan city of Cusco in which case... I'm going to have to agree. 
You said "scoring efficiency" here and then started talking mostly about shooting ability for the rest of the post. As far as the argument towards shooting ability goes, I follow you entirely. But I think that most people who talk about efficiency do understand it to include the effects of free throw rate and free throw percentage. Those points do count towards the final score, and as we've seen with guys like Kings-era Kevin Martin or James Harden, there are players who have a distinct ability to get whistles, get to the line, and hit free throws, and they make that ability part of their game and help their team win games because of it. It's fair to say that TS% isn't the be-all-end-all of shooting ability, but if it's not the be-all-end-all of scoring efficiency I couldn't tell you what is better.
I'm not entirely comfortable with advanced stats, though I do try to educate myself on what each of them are calculating. So when I use terms like "scoring efficiency" I'm not necessarily using them in a statistical context. To me an "efficient scorer" is somebody who only takes high percentage shots and makes more of them than league average. If a player shoots a lot of three pointers and makes less of them than league average I consider them to be an inefficient shooter because they are effectively taking shots away from other players even though they're not making enough of them to justify it. Typically league average is around 45% for FG% and 35% for 3pt%. So if a player is averaging less than 45% on the season they're already on the suspect list for me. If they also shoot a lot of threes but average less than 35% they get a closer look. The more FGA they pile onto those below-average shooting percentages, the more I think of them as inefficient.
As it relates to this discussion, I would agree that DeMarcus has been inefficient as a scorer this year. I would argue that Isaiah Thomas has been even more inefficient for the reasons I stated above. I know from a statistical point of view taking and making free throws and three pointers is supposed to offset a poor FG%. That's been the argument for justifying Chauncey Billups' candidacy for the hall of fame despite his 42% career shooting percentage. I agree that getting to the line a lot adds value to a team, though I'm not sure it's more valuable than three point shooting. And I'm also not sure that it's value is accurately accounted for in TS%. Ideally I want players who either make their shots or pass the ball to someone who does. And measures like PER and TS% may be useful as a means of codifying individual achievement but I don't think they accurately reflect the reality of the team game. A guy who gets to the line a lot may be getting free points for their team, and thus having a greater individual impact on the final score, but they're also dominating possessions when you consider that most FTA are the direct result of being fouled while in the act of shooting. That means less shots for everyone else.
And lastly, DeMarcus' inefficiency this year was brought into the discussion I suppose as a way of making IT look better though I never intended to say DeMarcus inefficiency wasn't a problem for us. That's a whole other discussion which is going on probably in a dozen places at once and will continue for as long as we have him on the team. What I was saying is that Rondo is a better compliment to DeMarcus because he shoots a lot less, makes passes that lead directly to baskets more than any other player in the league, and makes a greater number of the shots he does take. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to "revisit" the decision not to sign Isaiah Thomas 2 years ago when we have a starting PG on the team right now who is clearly, in my mind at least, just as valuable if not more valuable.
As it relates to this discussion, I would agree that DeMarcus has been inefficient as a scorer this year. I would argue that Isaiah Thomas has been even more inefficient for the reasons I stated above. I know from a statistical point of view taking and making free throws and three pointers is supposed to offset a poor FG%. That's been the argument for justifying Chauncey Billups' candidacy for the hall of fame despite his 42% career shooting percentage. I agree that getting to the line a lot adds value to a team, though I'm not sure it's more valuable than three point shooting. And I'm also not sure that it's value is accurately accounted for in TS%. Ideally I want players who either make their shots or pass the ball to someone who does. And measures like PER and TS% may be useful as a means of codifying individual achievement but I don't think they accurately reflect the reality of the team game. A guy who gets to the line a lot may be getting free points for their team, and thus having a greater individual impact on the final score, but they're also dominating possessions when you consider that most FTA are the direct result of being fouled while in the act of shooting. That means less shots for everyone else.
And lastly, DeMarcus' inefficiency this year was brought into the discussion I suppose as a way of making IT look better though I never intended to say DeMarcus inefficiency wasn't a problem for us. That's a whole other discussion which is going on probably in a dozen places at once and will continue for as long as we have him on the team. What I was saying is that Rondo is a better compliment to DeMarcus because he shoots a lot less, makes passes that lead directly to baskets more than any other player in the league, and makes a greater number of the shots he does take. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to "revisit" the decision not to sign Isaiah Thomas 2 years ago when we have a starting PG on the team right now who is clearly, in my mind at least, just as valuable if not more valuable.
Does any metric take the kind of shots into account, a player takes? Because from my point of view IT and Cousins are fallback options for their teams, when ballmovement and set plays don't lead to an open shot. In this case the ball is given to the best offensive player and he has to create something on his own. Usually this leads to a lower percentage look, than a shot created by ball movement and proper screening.
Now I think the Celtic's offense is lot better in creating open shots for players. Chances are, that IT gets more shots in the flow of the offense than Cousins. So maybe his better efficiency is a team thing, like Cousins lacking efficiency is too.
By my account there is no doubt, that IT is a way better shooter than Rondo, because of the type of shots he is able to take and make.
But holding DMC to the standard of other center's (50% FG) is misleading in my opinion, because Cousins is asked to create on his own a lot. Actually I can't think of another center, that has a similar playstyle like Dmc.
Of course it's debatable if this playstyle will lead to wins, but this is not solely on Cousins. Coaching has to be in the discussion too.
Now I think the Celtic's offense is lot better in creating open shots for players. Chances are, that IT gets more shots in the flow of the offense than Cousins. So maybe his better efficiency is a team thing, like Cousins lacking efficiency is too.
By my account there is no doubt, that IT is a way better shooter than Rondo, because of the type of shots he is able to take and make.
But holding DMC to the standard of other center's (50% FG) is misleading in my opinion, because Cousins is asked to create on his own a lot. Actually I can't think of another center, that has a similar playstyle like Dmc.
Of course it's debatable if this playstyle will lead to wins, but this is not solely on Cousins. Coaching has to be in the discussion too.
IT has been a more efficient scorer than DMC for his entire career (and amazingly scored the exact same TS% for 3 years with us... I triple checked myself on that), this year is actually his career low:
2011-12 IT (SAC): .574 TS%
2011-12 DMC: .499 TS%
2012-13 IT (SAC): .574 TS%
2012-13 DMC: .524 TS%
2013-14 IT (SAC): .574 TS%
2013-14 DMC: .555 TS%
2014-15 IT (BOS/PHX): .580 TS%
2014-15 DMC: .545 TS%
2015-16 IT (BOS): .558 TS%
2015-16 DMC: .541 TS%
2011-12 IT (SAC): .574 TS%
2011-12 DMC: .499 TS%
2012-13 IT (SAC): .574 TS%
2012-13 DMC: .524 TS%
2013-14 IT (SAC): .574 TS%
2013-14 DMC: .555 TS%
2014-15 IT (BOS/PHX): .580 TS%
2014-15 DMC: .545 TS%
2015-16 IT (BOS): .558 TS%
2015-16 DMC: .541 TS%
Interesting. Thank you. I guess this proves me wrong about the team responsibility for the effciency of the best offensive player in regards to IT and DMC.
Still I don't think this takes the kind of defense the player faces night in and night out into account. Is it all on the player, when he is inefficient? Because in the DMC discussion it's always about, what he needs to change to get more efficient.
But this kind of stats actually fuels a fear I try to hide deep down inside me - the question, if it's easier to build around scoring guards/wings in todays league, than it is to build around big man. Is it easier to get good looks running the pick&roll, attacking the defense in transition and from the outside, than it is to create a shot on the low block?
Still I don't think this takes the kind of defense the player faces night in and night out into account. Is it all on the player, when he is inefficient? Because in the DMC discussion it's always about, what he needs to change to get more efficient.
But this kind of stats actually fuels a fear I try to hide deep down inside me - the question, if it's easier to build around scoring guards/wings in todays league, than it is to build around big man. Is it easier to get good looks running the pick&roll, attacking the defense in transition and from the outside, than it is to create a shot on the low block?
I don't think it's all on the player and of course the system and his role in it matters, my point was much more about IT not being inefficient and I used Cousins as a benchmark.
I thougt it would be interesting to see where DMC stand in terms of scoring efficiency against other 20 point scorers, and out of 20 of them he ranks 17 ahead only of Carmelo Anthony, C J McCollum and Andrew Wiggins.
As for the questions you raised, I think the answer to all of them is yes- it is easier to build around guards/wings and seeing the success of the Jackson/Drummond pick&roll for example it seems like a much more efficient way of playing, but I still think that Cousins is talened enough to make it work if you build properly, I'm still of the opinion that if we would put 4 players that can shoot around him we would be much better offensively than we are with "talented" guys with suspicious shooting.
I thougt it would be interesting to see where DMC stand in terms of scoring efficiency against other 20 point scorers, and out of 20 of them he ranks 17 ahead only of Carmelo Anthony, C J McCollum and Andrew Wiggins.
As for the questions you raised, I think the answer to all of them is yes- it is easier to build around guards/wings and seeing the success of the Jackson/Drummond pick&roll for example it seems like a much more efficient way of playing, but I still think that Cousins is talened enough to make it work if you build properly, I'm still of the opinion that if we would put 4 players that can shoot around him we would be much better offensively than we are with "talented" guys with suspicious shooting.
DMC not even considered the best center in the league..Type Karl Anthony Towns into google. Take it for what it is, he won't bring a championship to the Capital. The team is better off trading him then to wait till it's too late, he's another Howard, good individual stats but not dominant enough, or mature enough to be a difference maker..
This is largely USG rate that your asking for. Basically the higher your USG rate, the more your allowed to be less efficient. Which makes guys like Durant and Curry crazy, who are on top of the leaderboards in both USG and efficiency. Guys with higher USG rates are the focal points of the offense, which you can conclude to be the guys taking the tough shots.
I think it doesn't have to be one or the other. If you have some time check out some Nets games while their first unit is on the floor. After a stop they look to attack on fastbreaks with their guards and quick screen. But when nothing is open Tony Brown has them running cool motion sets with a lot of cuts that result in either a post up for Lopez/Young or a open 3 coming of a screen or it flows into a pick&roll.
http://www.nba.com/2016/news/featur...stature-in-league/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt6b
I knew he would be a star. I'm still upset we let him go. Please come back Isaiah!
I knew he would be a star. I'm still upset we let him go. Please come back Isaiah!
K
I was a IT doubter while he was here but am really happy to see him thriving and his performance against the Warriors after going 0-7 in the first half and being scoreless than scoring like 14+ in the 3rd showed who he is as a competitor and at that size to be doing the things he's done is extraordinary .
Guys with heart, passion and who are competitive freaks will always come out on top on the NBA. Terrible mistake letting him go. IT and Collison would be a hell of a PG duo. He was the biggest bargain in the league when we had him and with his latest contract continues to be. Just stupid, but matches the script the last 10 years of this franchise will cement itself with.
PDA let him walk because he was a Malone guy and was already in the mindset that one of them was going to be gone. We had a GM that literally made moves with the the sole mentality of saving his own butt. The fact that the organization hired a weasel like that makes me sick. Seriously who hires a slimy lawyer as their GM?