is rahim a dissapointment?

[Kev.in]

He is not a disappointment. We get from him what we expected which is good but not really what we need.

Exactly.

He probably is or should be a disappointment in the eyes of some people. When he came here some people (who apparently hadn't seen him play in a few years) were acting all goofy and talking about how he's going to be good for something like 19 and 9, like he was going to play the way he did in Vancouver.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Exactly.

He probably is or should be a disappointment in the eyes of some people. When he came here some people (who apparently hadn't seen him play in a few years) were acting all goofy and talking about how he's going to be good for something like 19 and 9, like he was going to play the way he did in Vancouver.

thats what I was telling my roomie when he was chompin' at the bit for the Kings to sign Shareef, and I said 'you get what you get from him'. The one thing I have noticed is that he definetely slows down and really effects the flow of the offense in a bad way. No energy what so ever. He gets his 17/6.5 rebs., but brings nothing in the way of energy, with the exception of the other night when Randolph broke his jaw, then he came back and actually ripped the ball away and had a viscious throwdown after that...you wont get that very often. Reef is soft. I think about if Webb was on this team now, with Bonzi, Bibby, Brad, Peja. Much better crew, but thats just my 3 cents.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Vancover. First 3-4 years.

He was considered one of the top 3-6 PFs in the game. I don't think it was undue either. I think he was and is still an elite player, but he's lost his way.

He's no longer the aggressive player he once was. He's lost his tenacity ... almost like he's lost his desire. I think the number of losses piled up on him and it started to be more weight than he could bear. It broke his spirit. I don't think it's a conscious thing, I know from conversations that he loves the game ... it's just that I think somewhere back in his mind all the criticism is wearing on him.

I was so happy when he came to the Kings because I assumed that we would win and Reef would start performing up to that level again. I KNOW deep down that he would ... but instead it is more of the same.

At the beginning of the year, I thought that he looked youthful. He was fighting and running the floor. I was so happy, but when the losses started piling up I think it changed his demeanor.

Eh... some people saw his numbers/game and Vancover and though he would be greata nd some said good palyer on a bad team. I jsut said the jurry was still out. No criticisim jsut not a enough information to draw in informed opinon from. More and more now I am thinking that he really is just a quality journyman who has some great games, some bad games and in the end is not a great player but better than most of the other forwards on the market.

 

[BMiller52]

I agree with playmaker, shareef is made to be a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, option on a team he could be avg 20 points if he got more shots. High is to good of a scorer to to be higher then a 3rd. But i really belive if put as a 2nd option to a superstar (more like a guard) I belive is carreer would reach new hights. His problem is not scoring that is his best part of his game. His problem is being a leader and if u expect him to be a leader expect to lose.

He's not a first option dude. He gets his touches and slows down the offense. He's a 3rd or 4th option or a 6th man that wants to be a first or second option. With Shareef as your first or second best player on the team you're not winning anything.

 

[DaMan]

He's not a first option dude. He gets his touches and slows down the offense. He's a 3rd or 4th option or a 6th man that wants to be a first or second option. With Shareef as your first or second best player on the team you're not winning anything.

The man could score give u 20 plus points if we give him enough shots so i don't know what u mean he is a man who should be 3rd or 4th opition. And the only reason he slows down this offence because this offence is not made for post scorers, the kings run a fast past game. I have said it before, this team runs better with out a real post treat because it slows down their flow (that is why i love bricks idea of trading shareef and peja for tyson). Shareef is better severed to play along side a def center and an all-star guard which could play the in side out side game with, like how t-mac and yao do.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm not entirely too far off form that "broken spirit" theory myself. When he came in the league he was a young pup who could dominate in spurts' I understood why people were excited about him as a SF. He was a tough tough physical matchup there, and at one point seemed like he could becomes a mid-20's postup physical force at the 3.

But while the pretty moves are still there, what I've seen of Reef in recent years really raises the question for me if he hasn't lost his edge either mentally, or physically. The pee poor reboudning this year being just the latest thing, but just a gbeneral lack of aggression or even seeming DESIRE to be aggressive. Been years now since he was even a 20ppg scorer. And over a half a decade since he seemed a true threat to blow up and become a 23-25ppg scorer. In place of that desire tobe greatr, that desire to dominate, he seems...at peace. A detached pro. Give you a pro's effort. But there is none of the fireceness or pride/arrogance of a great player anymore. Thinnk it may have been beaten out of him if it ever was there. Or he may just be in a shell. Either way, what you get is a smooth professional scorer, but not a dominating inspirational presence. For whatever reason, whether it was a mirage to begin with or whether the life has been zapped from him spiritually or physically, Reef does not seem to either be a great player, or even have the spirit of a great player anymore.

Again, why I often compare him to Peja. Both are "pros". But both are too smooth, too comfortable, too satisfied and TOO professional in a highly competitive contact sport where spirit and energy can be enormouos factors. If there ever was hunger, its not there now.

 

[BawLa]

I'm not entirely too far off form that "broken spirit" theory myself. When he came in the league he was a young pup who could dominate in spurts' I understood why people were excited about him as a SF. He was a tough tough physical matchup there, and at one point seemed like he could becomes a mid-20's postup physical force at the 3.

But while the pretty moves are still there, what I've seen of Reef in recent years really raises the question for me if he hasn't lost his edge either mentally, or physically. The pee poor reboudning this year being just the latest thing, but just a gbeneral lack of aggression or even seeming DESIRE to be aggressive. Been years now since he was even a 20ppg scorer. And over a half a decade since he seemed a true threat to blow up and become a 23-25ppg scorer. In place of that desire tobe greatr, that desire to dominate, he seems...at peace. A detached pro. Give you a pro's effort. But there is none of the fireceness or pride/arrogance of a great player anymore. Thinnk it may have been beaten out of him if it ever was there. Or he may just be in a shell. Either way, what you get is a smooth professional scorer, but not a dominating inspirational presence. For whatever reason, whether it was a mirage to begin with or whether the life has been zapped from him spiritually or physically, Reef does not seem to either be a great player, or even have the spirit of a great player anymore.

Again, why I often compare him to Peja. Both are "pros". But both are too smooth, too comfortable, too satisfied and TOO professional in a highly competitive contact sport where spirit and energy can be enormouos factors. If there ever was hunger, its not there now.

For as much as I agree with you I still want to say this. At the beginning of the year Mike wanted to take on the leadership role. This year's team was built around Mike, Peja and Brad. SAR didn't want to come in and dictate and take over. He wanted to fit in. He seems happy in that support role. And hes not doing bad. I think everyone wants him to step up and be the player everyone once saw in him but look at the situation. The team has no real leader, and thats why some people feel disappointed in SAR. We expect him to all of a sudden take control of the team like it was his coming in because the "core" hasn't lead us to constant success. I think he might be underachieving on the boards but he is hardly a player that we should toss aside. Maybe if we gave him the keys to the team, then he would take a different shape. I'm not saying we should but we never told SAR to lead us. The first year he moves here is a transitional stage. He's gotta prove to us, the fans, that he deserves our love and respect. And he has in my opinion. If he were averaging 9 rpg, and maintained the same offensive efficiency, then how many of you can honestly tell me that you wouldn't be all over his jock. Maybe he might not be best suited for our system. Maybe our system is no longer successful. I don't know. But he is hardly the problem.

 

[playmaker0017]

I'm not entirely too far off form that "broken spirit" theory myself.

Everything you posted is almost exactly the impression I get.

I was sure that coming to Sacramento would rejuvinate his spirits and he'd remember the "fun" in playing basketball. The "enjoyment" of going to work everyday. I thought he'd come into his own again - and while I didn't expect him to transform into a Tim Duncan .... I thought he'd get to the point where he could challenge for a spot in the all-star game as a coach's selection.

I still think he enjoys the game, I don't want it to sound "whiny". I think somewhere deep down in his mind he's thinking "oh no, not again". It's got to sap you. I know it kills me as a fan ... I can't imagine what it does to you as a player.

I never got to experience winning until I went to Alabama. My high school was terrible and it was just awful suiting up and getting winded, beaten up, broken ... for people that weren't fulfilling their end of the deal. It was frustrating. I can only imagine Reef's struggles.

Again, why I often compare him to Peja. Both are "pros". But both are too smooth, too comfortable, too satisfied and TOO professional in a highly competitive contact sport where spirit and energy can be enormouos factors. If there ever was hunger, its not there now.

The difference between the two is that Reef USED to have a fire and a passion. He was never a "leader", per se, but he was passionate.

It's frustrating to watch as a fan, because I can see that he is easily more talented than he was in Vancouver in every aspect of the game. He just doesn't have the will to exert it on people. I remember when he used to beat Kevin Garnett up and down the floor and statistically destroy him. Now I dread seeing the matchup. It's almost like he's lost faith in himself.

It's like he wants to give the ball to someone else because he knows that he's never bringing the wins by scoring so he'll let someone else.

 

[venom_7]

Let me put it this way. When Reef comes back, I would like to see him shoot his .547 average in 30 minutes off the bench. Think about it. When we have an athletic, roleplayer who doesn't require alot of touches like KT starting, we excel. But Shareef is a scorer. And with him starting, we have 4 scorers in our starting lineup that really don't do much of anything else. (ya ya, Miller's passing.) As you can see, we do much better with Bibby, Miller, and the rest of them athletic. We could fit one more scorer in. So you could bench Peja or Reef and start KT in one of their places. In my opinion, I think it should be game to game. But RA wont do that. In games when we need an outside threat, Peja starts. When we need an inside threat or an inside defender, Reef starts. Thoughts?

 

[DaMan]

Let me put it this way. When Reef comes back, I would like to see him shoot his .547 average in 30 minutes off the bench. Think about it. When we have an athletic, roleplayer who doesn't require alot of touches like KT starting, we excel. But Shareef is a scorer. And with him starting, we have 4 scorers in our starting lineup that really don't do much of anything else. (ya ya, Miller's passing.) As you can see, we do much better with Bibby, Miller, and the rest of them athletic. We could fit one more scorer in. So you could bench Peja or Reef and start KT in one of their places. In my opinion, I think it should be game to game. But RA wont do that. In games when we need an outside threat, Peja starts. When we need an inside threat or an inside defender, Reef starts. Thoughts?

I don't like the thought of changing the team starting lineup denpeding on matchups because the team will never mix, just look at the knicks and look how they turned out. And sar is not really a good bench player as playmaker has said sar he is a flow player and gets must of his points in the flow of the game. And as I said for peja, maybe the best way that sar could help the team is if he was traded for a player that could, and the chi/sac trade sames like the best trade yet.

 

[acisking]

I have to say that his rebounding numbers are absolutely atrocious as Brick's stats prove. Other than that though I'm probably more dissapointed at the team than at Shareef.

 

[DirkAB]

I don't like the thought of changing the team starting lineup denpeding on matchups because the team will never mix, just look at the knicks and look how they turned out. And sar is not really a good bench player as playmaker has said sar he is a flow player and gets must of his points in the flow of the game. And as I said for peja, maybe the best way that sar could help the team is if he was traded for a player that could, and the chi/sac trade sames like the best trade yet.

I don't really get what you mean by he gets his points in the flow of the game, especially considering I think he destroys the flow of the offense. He hangs on to the ball way to long and kills the flow the Kings ball movement, he's a ball stopper. That is why I think he belongs coming off the bench as a 6th man, he could give the team a boost off the bench. Good 6th men seem to play a little bit selfishly, kind of like Bobby Jackson, adding their instant offense when things go stale.

 

[VF21]

I don't really get what you mean by he gets his points in the flow of the game, especially considering I think he destroys the flow of the offense. He hangs on to the ball way to long and kills the flow the Kings ball movement, he's a ball stopper. That is why I think he belongs coming off the bench as a 6th man, he could give the team a boost off the bench. Good 6th men seem to play a little bit selfishly, kind of like Bobby Jackson, adding their instant offense when things go stale.

I tend to agree, especially with the assessment that he seems to slow the flow of the game. It was most obvious, perhaps, the last game. That was Kings basketball, warts, wrinkles and WIN. We aren't a low post presence team. While having two players - Bonzi and SAR - capable of playing in the low post, I think we make a big mistake if we presume that's the best way for our Kings to play, especially if the ball doesn't come back out to a perimeter shooter if SAR cannot get a shot. Bringing SAR off the bench could well change the oncourt dynamics just enough to totally throw an opposing defense off the mark, especially when they've just found a way to try and stop our perimeter shooters.

SAR isn't a scrub, but he is not IMHO one of the true elite PFs in the game. And I don't think he's the right fit for a permanent position at the 4 in our game.

But we'll see what happens. This is a team in flux. It could well be that fate has dealt Adelman the opportunity to field, finally, a combination that just make get us back above .500 ...

 

[DaMan]

I don't really get what you mean by he gets his points in the flow of the game, especially considering I think he destroys the flow of the offense. He hangs on to the ball way to long and kills the flow the Kings ball movement, he's a ball stopper. That is why I think he belongs coming off the bench as a 6th man, he could give the team a boost off the bench. Good 6th men seem to play a little bit selfishly, kind of like Bobby Jackson, adding their instant offense when things go stale.

I mean he gets his points here and there in a game then somehow gets 20 plus points, then people leave asking how he did that. And that is why if u gave him a few mins off the bench he won't produces as much as if he was in the starting lineup, its like the kenny situation. Your right he kills the KINGS system of play it just to fast pace for him. Like i have said before put him next to superstar guard like a pierce and let them play the inside outside game, like t-mac and yao, or shaq and wade, and that would be a much better fit for sar.

 

[DirkAB]

I mean he gets his points here and there in a game then somehow gets 20 plus points, then people leave asking how he did that. And that is why if u gave him a few mins off the bench he won't produces as much as if he was in the starting lineup, its like the kenny situation. Your right he kills the KINGS system of play it just to fast pace for him. Like i have said before put him next to superstar guard like a pierce and let them play the inside outside game, like t-mac and yao, or shaq and wade, and that would be a much better fit for sar.

I don't think that his minutes should be cut that much, but I think he should be coming off the bench. He could get 20-22 min at PF and maybe 8-10 at SF every game, he should get about 30 mpg. I think your point about him picking up points the way he does supports my point, he doesn't need to be in the flow of the offense to score. He can come off the bench and do his thing w/o getting into the offensive flow or destroying the offensive flow for the starters.

If the Kings had Pierce and SAR OMG it would be horrible to watch! I love how the Kings play the game since the Princeton offense has been implemented, the passing and unselfishness is beautiful. Pierce might be the biggest ball-stopper in the league, he is horrible to watch. He's very talented but has lost the team concept since his days at Kansas. He is one of my least favorite players in the league to watch, it is all one on one garbage. The Celtics might have the worst ball movement in the league because of him. I've seen a number of people on Kings forums post that they want Pierce on the Kings and I couldn't disagree more. He's a ballhog pure and simple.

 

[DaMan]

I don't think that his minutes should be cut that much, but I think he should be coming off the bench. He could get 20-22 min at PF and maybe 8-10 at SF every game, he should get about 30 mpg. I think your point about him picking up points the way he does supports my point, he doesn't need to be in the flow of the offense to score. He can come off the bench and do his thing w/o getting into the offensive flow or destroying the offensive flow for the starters.

If the Kings had Pierce and SAR OMG it would be horrible to watch! I love how the Kings play the game since the Princeton offense has been implemented, the passing and unselfishness is beautiful. Pierce might be the biggest ball-stopper in the league, he is horrible to watch. He's very talented but has lost the team concept since his days at Kansas. He is one of my least favorite players in the league to watch, it is all one on one garbage. The Celtics might have the worst ball movement in the league because of him. I've seen a number of people on Kings forums post that they want Pierce on the Kings and I couldn't disagree more. He's a ballhog pure and simple.

They did the same thing u said in portland and give Sar mins at the sf and pf spot coming off the bench, he didn't do so well.

I coud tell that u don't like the 2 man game or the inside out outside game and u mush rather have the princeton offense. Personaly i think that offense has to go, we can't try to copy the past. This is a different team, it needs a new system. The current lineup we have had in the past 2 game, works that system the best, but we won't go far with them. I think as soon as RA leaves, the princeton off would leave and we would be better off. And please don't bring up the past results the had Kings because that team had the perfect players to run that offence but now they don't.

The perfect example of the kings of the past would be the pistons (but the pistons have better defence). But just like the past kings the the pistons run the right kind of system for there players. But If u take 2 of the players out of pistons lineup and replace them with cheap copys they won't have the same amount of success and that is what the kings are trying to do and that is wrong.

 

[Kings241]

I read the topic of this thread and looked at Shareef's stats in Portland and said to my self, "why whould Shareef be a dissapointment," He averages more points and does better things in this team then he did in Portland," and he came here as a fourth or fifth option but now is basically made into a second or third option in offense.

 

[VF21]

They did the same thing u said in portland and give Sar mins at the sf and pf spot coming off the bench, he didn't do so well.

I coud tell that u don't like the 2 man game or the inside out outside game and u mush rather have the princeton offense. Personaly i think that offense has to go, we can't try to copy the past. This is a different team, it needs a new system. The current lineup we have had in the past 2 game, works that system the best, but we won't go far with them. I think as soon as RA leaves, the princeton off would leave and we would be better off. And please don't bring up the past results the had Kings because that team had the perfect players to run that offence but now they don't.

The perfect example of the kings of the past would be the pistons (but the pistons have better defence). But just like the past kings the the pistons run the right kind of system for there players. But If u take 2 of the players out of pistons lineup and replace them with cheap copys they won't have the same amount of success and that is what the kings are trying to do and that is wrong.

This is just getting absurd. The attack on the "PRINCETON offense," as though it's some monster hiding in the attic, is ludicrous. What the Kings did the past two games is play Kings basketball, which consists of passing the ball until you get the open man, THINKING about your shot and those of your teammates, and - generally - playing heads up ball. Pretty much every single solitary team in the league does something similar.

Your dedication to SAR notwithstanding, some Kings fans are not totally convinced he is the answer to all our woes. To continue to blame the Princeton offense is like blaming the river for flooding.

As far as bringing up past results go, I think I'll continue if it's all the same to you. We still have Brad, Mike and Peja - three of our five starters. Bonzi is comparable in a lot of ways to Doug. The ONLY real difference, despite his consistent showing, is SAR who simply isn't IMHO the right type of player for our TEAM, regardless of the type of offense being played. He's one dimensional, he forgets there are four other players on the court way too many times, and he seems to be more interested in one-on-one and fancy spin moves than kicking the ball back out to the open man.

SAR is a good player. I'm just still not convinced he's the RIGHT player for our needs. I'm not disappointed, however, because I never was convinced he'd be the answer.

 

[Kings241]

The past two games don't convince me to say that the Kings are a better team without Peja, Wells, and Shareef. No matter how you look at it, its about the same thing every year, consistency. Something this team lacks a lot, they will have 2-3 great games and then play like crap again. Martin is a good player but does not have the experience nor the skills to start. Kenny Thomas will get you energy and rebounding but he is not the answer on defense or on offense most nights. Peja needs to be traded for the sake of the team because I think the team would rather get some value instead of no value for Peja unless your going to sign the guy for the max he wants which would be the wrong direction. Kings need someone young that can play around the veterans Bibby, Wells, and Shareef.

 

[ParniValjak]

All I will say here is that handful of games don't make a season.

We beat 2 teams that are in a slump and we were able to do it with Bibby playing at his absolute best. He is a good player but you can argue he has played "above himself" the last 2 games. There is not way in hell he can play like all season long.

I do think that offence doesn't flow as well when SAR is in the game. Nothing against the man, he has been playing as well as I expected him to play but for some reason he is just not suited what we want to run. The only way we can get better (apart from trades) is if SAR learns to play our way. If SAR continues to play the same style he has played so far, then we will continue to struggle a bit. I am confident he can "iron out" his deficiencies in this set up.

 

[BawLa]

All I will say here is that handful of games don't make a season.

We beat 2 teams that are in a slump and we were able to do it with Bibby playing at his absolute best. He is a good player but you can argue he has played "above himself" the last 2 games. There is not way in hell he can play like all season long.

I do think that offence doesn't flow as well when SAR is in the game. Nothing against the man, he has been playing as well as I expected him to play but for some reason he is just not suited what we want to run. The only way we can get better (apart from trades) is if SAR learns to play our way. If SAR continues to play the same style he has played so far, then we will continue to struggle a bit. I am confident he can "iron out" his deficiencies in this set up.

Unfortunately SAR does not help our offensive flow but that doesn't mean he should go. We can use some variability in our game. He belongs coming in off the bench when Mike and Brad take breathers. Then with SAR on the court leading our guys, we instantly have a dramatic change in offense, one that could leave even the best teams in the game wondering what is goin on. That variability in TYPES of offense is what can make us a difficult team to deal with. Our only problem is finding the right mix from night to night and I think RA is getting closer to solving this puzzle every day.

 

[ParniValjak]

Unfortunately SAR does not help our offensive flow but that doesn't mean he should go. We can use some variability in our game. He belongs coming in off the bench when Mike and Brad take breathers. Then with SAR on the court leading our guys, we instantly have a dramatic change in offense, one that could leave even the best teams in the game wondering what is goin on. That variability in TYPES of offense is what can make us a difficult team to deal with. Our only problem is finding the right mix from night to night and I think RA is getting closer to solving this puzzle every day.

Portland tried that and it DIDN'T work. What makes you think it will work in Sacramento??????

You won't get more from SAR off the Bench than you are getting from Thomas off the bench. Neither of them are impact players, they need minutes to be effective and get in the flow of the game.

What you are suggesting sounds great in but reality is something entirely different.

 

[playmaker0017]

I do think that offence doesn't flow as well when SAR is in the game. Nothing against the man, he has been playing as well as I expected him to play but for some reason he is just not suited what we want to run. The only way we can get better (apart from trades) is if SAR learns to play our way. If SAR continues to play the same style he has played so far, then we will continue to struggle a bit. I am confident he can "iron out" his deficiencies in this set up.

Why does everyone keep making this about offense?

"Shareef kills our flow"
"We now play Kings basketball"
"Our offense is better now"
etc

Our team scores at a 100 PPG clip with Reef in (while we've averaged 53PPG in the 1st/3rd QTRS, typically when we've got our starters in for the first 10 minutes). Most offenses consider anything about 96 points to be pretty dang good. I would hasten to say that 90PPG is the basketball equivalent to the Mendoza line.

Offense, our flow on offense, the speed of our offense is NOT the problem. Never has been.

Our problem has been defense and always have two pieces of our puzzle at the complete bottom.

What do I mean?

• Beginning of the season - Peja, Miller and Bibby were all slumping and we couldn't get a productive minute out of our bench. PROBLEMS: Three key players not playing well (Bibby/Miller/Peja); poor bench production.
• About 8-10 games in - Peja got really hot and Bibby continued to struggle with our bench. PROBLEMS: One key player playing poorly (Peja); poor bench production.
• About 8-10 games after that - Bibby steps it up, Peja gets hurt and our bench still can't produce. PROBLEMS: One key player out; poor bench production.
• Few games after that - Peja plays terrible, Bonzi gets hurt. Bench continues to smell bad. PROBLEMS: One key player out; one player playing poorly; poor bench production.
• A bit after that (for two games) - Peja plays poorly, Reef gets hurt. Bench start playing better. PROBLEMS: Two key players out; one player playing poorly.

We've never been fully assembled and had our bench actually show up for a game.

We NEED to play better defense. There is no question about that. But, blaming this on our offense sputtering ... that's absurd. Blame it on the fact that we've never hit on 80% of our cylinders ... much less 100%. You can't have ZERO bench production and expect great results. You can't have two of your starters playing like crap and expect results.

I want to see what we do as a team when people get back and our bench continues playing smarter basketball.

 

[Folsom Al]

SAR can only be a disapointment for folks that had unreasonable expectations of him in the first place.

Nice player having some good games but when and where did he ever show the promise to be anything more?

There it is ....

I did not expect Shareef to come in here and TAKE OVER THE WORLD

I like his game ...
I like his attitude ...
I like his competitiveness ...
I like his personality ...
I like his athleticism ...

What I don't like are his UNTIMELY TO's .... (but, I deal with it)

 

[iheartBrad]

I never expected him to be more than just an average nice player...I didn't think that even here in Sac the rehab city that it was gonna turn him into some of kind of superstar...so I'm actually not at all dissappointed...he's right where I expected him to be

and minus there last little losing streak the team is right where I expected them to be...I never had high expectations or even high hopes...I was extremely nervous about the team going into the season and because I prepared myself prior to the seasons start I'm not as rattled as most people...up and down record wise, people questioning the oncourt leadership, the abilities of the head coach with half our roster injured....what would a Kings season be without those last 4 factors....

 

[Stojakovic]

Why does everyone keep making this about offense?

"Shareef kills our flow"
"We now play Kings basketball"
"Our offense is better now"
etc

Our team scores at a 100 PPG clip with Reef in (while we've averaged 53PPG in the 1st/3rd QTRS, typically when we've got our starters in for the first 10 minutes). Most offenses consider anything about 96 points to be pretty dang good. I would hasten to say that 90PPG is the basketball equivalent to the Mendoza line.

Offense, our flow on offense, the speed of our offense is NOT the problem. Never has been.

Our problem has been defense and always have two pieces of our puzzle at the complete bottom.

What do I mean?

• Beginning of the season - Peja, Miller and Bibby were all slumping and we couldn't get a productive minute out of our bench. PROBLEMS: Three key players not playing well (Bibby/Miller/Peja); poor bench production.
• About 8-10 games in - Peja got really hot and Bibby continued to struggle with our bench. PROBLEMS: One key player playing poorly (Peja); poor bench production.
• About 8-10 games after that - Bibby steps it up, Peja gets hurt and our bench still can't produce. PROBLEMS: One key player out; poor bench production.
• Few games after that - Peja plays terrible, Bonzi gets hurt. Bench continues to smell bad. PROBLEMS: One key player out; one player playing poorly; poor bench production.
• A bit after that (for two games) - Peja plays poorly, Reef gets hurt. Bench start playing better. PROBLEMS: Two key players out; one player playing poorly.

We've never been fully assembled and had our bench actually show up for a game.

We NEED to play better defense. There is no question about that. But, blaming this on our offense sputtering ... that's absurd. Blame it on the fact that we've never hit on 80% of our cylinders ... much less 100%. You can't have ZERO bench production and expect great results. You can't have two of your starters playing like crap and expect results.

I want to see what we do as a team when people get back and our bench continues playing smarter basketball.

Perhaps the most reasonable analysis of our situation thus far. Bravo.

 

[DirkAB]

Why does everyone keep making this about offense?

"Shareef kills our flow"
"We now play Kings basketball"
"Our offense is better now"
etc

Our team scores at a 100 PPG clip with Reef in (while we've averaged 53PPG in the 1st/3rd QTRS, typically when we've got our starters in for the first 10 minutes). Most offenses consider anything about 96 points to be pretty dang good. I would hasten to say that 90PPG is the basketball equivalent to the Mendoza line.

Offense, our flow on offense, the speed of our offense is NOT the problem. Never has been.

Our problem has been defense and always have two pieces of our puzzle at the complete bottom.

What do I mean?

• Beginning of the season - Peja, Miller and Bibby were all slumping and we couldn't get a productive minute out of our bench. PROBLEMS: Three key players not playing well (Bibby/Miller/Peja); poor bench production.
• About 8-10 games in - Peja got really hot and Bibby continued to struggle with our bench. PROBLEMS: One key player playing poorly (Peja); poor bench production.
• About 8-10 games after that - Bibby steps it up, Peja gets hurt and our bench still can't produce. PROBLEMS: One key player out; poor bench production.
• Few games after that - Peja plays terrible, Bonzi gets hurt. Bench continues to smell bad. PROBLEMS: One key player out; one player playing poorly; poor bench production.
• A bit after that (for two games) - Peja plays poorly, Reef gets hurt. Bench start playing better. PROBLEMS: Two key players out; one player playing poorly.

We've never been fully assembled and had our bench actually show up for a game.

We NEED to play better defense. There is no question about that. But, blaming this on our offense sputtering ... that's absurd. Blame it on the fact that we've never hit on 80% of our cylinders ... much less 100%. You can't have ZERO bench production and expect great results. You can't have two of your starters playing like crap and expect results.

I want to see what we do as a team when people get back and our bench continues playing smarter basketball.

I'm sorry but I don't see your logic, we average 99 ppg and that isn't enough because the Kings are an offensive team. Yeah the need to improve on defense, but they can't be something that they are not. They still have to play to their strong suite and the Kings are and have been an offensive team. The Kings don't have strong defensive players so they can only improve defensively to a certain extent, they definitely have a lot more room to improve on offense.

So do you think if they score 96 ppg or above that they are doing well enough offensively? That makes no sense what-so-ever with the roster that they have. They need to be scoring over 100 ppg to be successful. The Kings are 11-3 this season when scoring 100 points or more, and 1-14 when scoring under 100 points. The one win that they got under 100 points was against the T-Wolves when Bonzi pulled off the miracle in the corner.

Aside from that can't you tell that SAR slows the offensive flow down by just watching him play? It is so obvious that he hangs onto the ball too long, it is a problem for the offense. Peja really suffers from poor ball movement because he is primarily a catch and shoot player that depends on getting open looks from others. Hanging on to the ball a split second too long makes all the difference in the world.

 

[playmaker0017]

I'm sorry but I don't see your logic, we average 99 ppg and that isn't enough because the Kings are an offensive team. Yeah the need to improve on defense, but they can't be something that they are not.

I agree - and thinking and this team is truly capable of averaging more than 100PPG ... with or without Shareef. We MIGHT be able to get a little above, but the talent isn't there to score at a clip that gets 105+.

Plus - in order to do this - we will exploit our already pathetic defense.

See - running the ball requires a smart IQ and a dedication to getting back on defense. We don't do that - and one of our biggest problems is the apathy from our PG in being the first man back.

They still have to play to their strong suite and the Kings are and have been an offensive team.

Go back and look - the Kings were NEVER a poor defensive team. They held opponents to miserable FG% in their hayday.

Assuming offense without defense is a very poor way to move this team forward.

Last year - and I showed this stat in this thread or possibly another one - every position on the floor (save the PF position) gave up a lower FG% and fewer PPG. I ought to look at the offensive production at each position as well - but I would assume we aren't far off.

It's defense that is leading to losses ... not offense. It's also not been our starters - as our starting unit is beating the opposition more often than not.

The Kings don't have strong defensive players so they can only improve defensively to a certain extent, they definitely have a lot more room to improve on offense.

You are SORELY mistaken.

There is no such thing as an NBA player that can't play defense. It doesn't exist. Defense is 90% effort and 10% natural skill and athletic talent.

John Stockton is a prime example of a player that had little athletic talent, but played STELLAR defense. If you are trying to tell me that Mike Bibby can't play defense than I think you have another thing coming. Look at the space Bibby creates offensively ... look at how open he can make himself off a single step. He's got the physical talent to play defense ... he just needs to exert effort.

As for improving offensively ... the best offensive team in the league is scoring 103 PPG. We're scoring 99 ... 4 points under the leader. How much more do you think we can improve?

So do you think if they score 96 ppg or above that they are doing well enough offensively? That makes no sense what-so-ever with the roster that they have.

I think if you score 96 points - you have done enough offensively to have won the game and the only excuse you have is that you couldn't stop your opponent ... regardless of your roster.

You have to have enough pride to stop your opponent from treating you like a doormat.

The Kings are 11-3 this season when scoring 100 points or more, and 1-14 when scoring under 100 points.

Does this say that we're not playing well enough offensively or not stopping our opponent enough? If you picked the former -- you'd be WRONG.

Any team that scores above 96 points in a game should win over 50% of the time. If you don't - it means you haven't done enough defensively to win.

If winning requires over 100 PPG ... then you DEFINITELY haven't done enough defensively. Most teams SHOULD win the majority of their games when they score over 100 points.

I'm not going to answer the individual player stuff, since I think it's petty and pointless. I think I've said enough above to cover how i feel about individuals.

 

[Bonzinator]

He is not a disappointment. We get from him what we expected which is good but not really what we need.

so what your saying is we dont need a post up player who draws double teams and a player who can play great defense on great players like KG and TIM DUNCAN. what we dont need is a jumpshooter like kenny thomas in the startng lineup! you cant have 4 freakin jumpshooters and one post up player and the one post up player you would have would be your SHOOTING GUARD!

 

[VF21]

I'm not going to answer the individual player stuff, since I think it's petty and pointless. I think I've said enough above to cover how i feel about individuals.

And I think you're missing the obvious. You are, of course, more than entitled to your opinion BUT a lot of us aren't going to change ours simply because you repeat yours over and over again.

SAR slows the offense IMHO. That's my opinion. It's the first thing I notice. It doesn't matter how many points the team scores with him in the offense or how well he does, if the team still loses.

The last two games could well be flukes but WITHOUT SAR in there, the team has won. All the debate in the world isn't going to change that. Without the "luxury" of a low post presence, the Kings have gone back to moving the ball more, looking for the open man, getting GOOD drives inside by Kevin, etc. It's been productive.

I still maintain that SAR could be the best player in the world, but his style of play does not necessarily bring what the Kings need. I do not believe everything should change to suit a player unless that player is named LeBron or Shaq or Duncan. And, with guys like that, you don't have to change everything because they make everything around them better. SAR doesn't do that.