Interesting take....

VF21 · Nov 19, 2005

And Jerry Reynolds spouts the usual party line about the trade...which is what you would expect the ongoing director of player personnel for the Sacramento Kings to do.

There are a few flaws, however...

Reynolds talks about the tradability of Thomas, Skinner and Williamson, which I think we all know isn't anywhere near as high as the Kings would have liked.

He also comments that he doesn't think Webber will ever get back to superstar status. Since the book was obviously written BEFORE this season started, I have to wonder what he thinks now.

They all have value around the league?

Excuse me for my skepticisim...

VF21 · Nov 19, 2005

Because of the length of the excerpt from the book, I think it only right to add this:

This excerpt is taken from the new book, Reynolds Remembers 20 Years with the Sacramento Kings (Sports Publishing L.L.C.), written by former Kings head coach (and current TV color analyst) Jerry Reynolds. The book, co-written with Don Drysdale, can now be found in bookstores around the United States. It is available for $19.95 and can also be purchased directly from the publisher anytime by calling toll-free in the continental United States, 1-877-424-BOOK (2665); outside the continental U.S. at 217-363-2072, or online at SportsPublishingLLC.com or Amazon.com.

dukeswh · Nov 19, 2005

The first time i learned that CWebb is going to be traded i was really surprised, i couldn't believe that after being named Player of the Month and averaging in double-double he could be traded. But what really got to me was what we got in return. And we traded 3 players for another 3 when only 1 of our player is more than the value of the 3 that we were getting.

SacTownKid said:

What value do they have? Who would trade for a player who HAS BEEN a double-double but is now a half/double-half/double with a HUGE contract? A player who WAS a sixth man of the year who is lucky to even hit the floor for 5 mins during GARBAGETIME with a HUGE contract? or a player who WAS a starting center for a weak team in a weak division with a BIG contract? Now where is the flexibility in that? I was not against trading Webber, or trading any of our "core" for that matter, but for these scrubs? .........

SacTownKid · Nov 19, 2005

VF21 said:

Don't forget that Chris should have been an All-star and was putting up insane numbers when we traded him. Far better then his stats now. Everyone was fully aware of what Chris was capable of doing.

You asked about what really happened that led to Chris being traded, well I think Jerry Reynolds has just told us. It is not some sort of secret. They felt he wasn't worth the risk, and couldn't live up to his salary.

Now we also know that the Philly deal was the ONLY deal out there.

And that Petrie had been trying to deal him for awhile.

I must also say that after reading this bit, I am definately getting this book for Christmas!

dukeswh · Nov 19, 2005

Sorry VF, beat me to it!

VF21 · Nov 19, 2005

Just as a personal comment ... I'd be much more interested in a "tell all" book if the person who wrote it wasn't STILL in the employ of the same company/organization. While everything that Reynolds says could be completely true, it just doesn't stand up to the "totally without fear of retaliation" test.

Call me paranoid or suspicious if you like, but I have to wonder about the timing of this insightful tome...

dukeswh · Nov 19, 2005

SacTownKid said:

If that was the only deal, I would rather take a risk on a guy was averaging in double-double with a Huge contract than 3 scrubs with huge contracts.

SacTownKid · Nov 19, 2005

VF21 said:

Just as a personal comment ... I'd be much more interested in a "tell all" book if the person who wrote it wasn't STILL in the employ of the same company/organization. While everything that Reynolds says could be completely true, it just doesn't stand up to the "totally without fear of retaliation" test.

Call me paranoid or suspicious if you like, but I have to wonder about the timing of this insightful tome...

OK, you're paranoid

VF21 · Nov 19, 2005

SacTownKid said:

Yeah, a long-time employee of the Sacramento Kings WHO IS STILL EMPLOYED by the Sacramento Kings writes a tell-all book and you were expecting surprises?

Sorry for the skepticism, STK, but he's not exactly an impartial observer. Everything Reynolds has "revealed" is EXACTLY what was released to the press after the trade. He hasn't told any tales out of school...

I'm not saying any of it is false. All I'm saying is at my age I've learned not to be quite so quick to accept everything as gospel. I'd be more interested in reading a book 5-10 years from now from someone who ISN'T so tightly tied to the organization and the Maloofs.

EDIT: What's next? An expose by Grant Napear on how great the fans are???

SacTownKid · Nov 19, 2005

VF21 said:

Yeah, a long-time employee of the Sacramento Kings WHO IS STILL EMPLOYED by the Sacramento Kings writes a tell-all book and you were expecting surprises?

Sorry for the skepticism, STK, but he's not exactly an impartial observer. Everything Reynolds has "revealed" is EXACTLY what was released to the press after the trade. He hasn't told any tales out of school...

I'm not saying any of it is false. All I'm saying is at my age I've learned not to be quite so quick to accept everything as gospel. I'd be more interested in reading a book 5-10 years from now from someone who ISN'T so tightly tied to the organization and the Maloofs.

What exactly are you skeptical about?

Bricklayer · Nov 19, 2005

DocHolliday said:

However we have NOT. And certainly not because of that deal. The Philly trio is not a rebuilding plan. Its a lottery plan. Until they are moved, BEFORE Webb and his mega-contract cculd have landed us some nice pieces himself (i.e. next summer) we have gained NOTHING as far as "rebuilding".

As an aside, after tonight you can make that 21pts 10rebs 3.2ast 1.6stl 1.2blk on 45% shooting and 92% from the line (yes, you read that right 48 of 53 from the line this year).

Trading Webb for young guns is a rebuilding plan. Trading him for immediate cap room is a rebuilding plan (dangerous and shaky thought it be). Trading him for a pile of middle-aged tweeners with bad contracts is a Pete Babcock move. There HAS to be followup, and relatively soon, for it to contribute anything. Otherwise its just a candid admission that we misjudged. Wouldn't mind the situation so much if it wasn't for the rampant self-serving B.S. flowing from the Kings camp.

VF21 · Nov 19, 2005

STK - I'm skeptical about how likely it would be that Jerry Reynolds would write a book while still working for Maloof Sports and Entertainment that actually told any insider secrets. He hasn't said anything contrary to what we already had heard.

It's pretty much a pablum piece, at least as far as the whole Webber scenario is concerned, and I would fully expect it to be - if he intends to hold on to his job.

If there is even ONE little iota of information in that book that the Maloofs would be unhappy to see in print, I will be very, very surprised...

SacTownKid · Nov 19, 2005

Bricklayer said:

However we have NOT. And certainly not because of that deal. The Philly trio is not a rebuilding plan. Its a lottery plan. Until they are moved, BEFORE Webb and his mega-contract cculd have landed us some nice pieces himself (i.e. next summer) we have gained NOTHING as far as "rebuilding".

As an aside, after tonight you can make that 21pts 10rebs 3.2ast 1.6stl 1.2blk on 45% shooting and 92% from the line (yes, you read that right 48 of 53 from the line this year).

Trading Webb for young guns is a rebuilding plan. Trading him for immediate cap room is a rebuilding plan (dangerous and shaky thought it be). Trading him for a pile of middle-aged tweeners with bad contracts is a Pete Babcock move. There HAS to be followup, and relatively soon, for it to contribute anything. Otherwise its just a candid admission that we misjudged. Wouldn't mind the situation so much if it wasn't for the rampant self-serving B.S. flowing from the Kings camp.

Next summer? Nah, its the the summer after next if you're going the expiring route.

But I agree, if they have any intentions of moving the Philly 3 we should get something good in return, and not just a salary dump.

nbrans · Nov 19, 2005

Bricklayer said:

I respect your opinion, but I don't agree with any of this. I understand there are many ways to look at the Webber trade, and you are obviously entitled from yours. If you are speaking from the standpoint that the sole purpose was to obtain tradable assets then perhaps no, you wouldn't think it was a good trade. But there were countless other reasons to make that trade, and to even argue that it was a good trade.

I've argued this many times previously, but there's at least a 90% chance the Bonzi Wells trade would not have happened becuase Greg Ostertag would not have been expendible. Not unless the Kings wanted to somehow sign two exceedingly mediocre big men (Songaila plus someone even worse) for the MLE. And you're obviously ignoring the fact that Cuttino got more than the MLE from the Clippers and SAR specifically passed up more money elsewhere because he wanted to start for a winner. There was not a lot of talent out there for the MLE. Because Webber was gone the Kings got the very best available -- SAR.

Looking at the Webber trade in a vacuum is pointless. Kind of like saying a bad call in the second quarter was the reason that a team ended up losing the game, ignoring everything that happened afterward. The fact is that it changed the reality for the Kings. It meant that they could acquire Bonzi Wells. It meant that they could acquire SAR. It meant that the Kings have two expiring contracts next year instead of one exceedingly unwieldy one that expires two years from now. You're terribly (and uncharacteristically) optimistic to assume that the Kings could have unloaded that deal for more talent than they got from Philly. It would have meant taking on at least one terrible deal in the process to maybe MAYBE get one decent player in return. It would have been a trade almost exactly like the one that happened -- lucky for us it happened when it did so the Kings could start moving on.

Look at the roster this year compared to last year. Even if you think Webber is better than SAR, surely it's not by all that much. And you really can't tell me that Songaila is better than Kenny Thomas or Ostertag is better than Skinner. The Kings aren't in a bad shape. They've had some struggles, but they're in good shape.

I know people have an emotional attachment to Webber, they miss his heart etc., I understand that. But I think people are taking that attachment and creating all these artificial conditions by which to judge the trade. There's no reason that the Kings HAVE to trade the Philly three in order for it to be a success. They've already reaped rewards from the trade. They're benefitting from having those three on the roster every single day. I wish Webber all the best, but I'm glad the Kings have moved on.

SacTownKid · Nov 19, 2005

Well, I hate that fact that this issue is going to be drudged up everytime Chris Webber has a 20-10 game, but it at least makes for interesting arguement on both sides of the issue.

I have to agree with Nbrans. As I brought up in another thread about Webber's contract, I don't know how you could move him for something all that great as an expiring deal, but maybe Philly can.

I think it could be that having Corliss and Brians contracts (expiring deals next season, at 6.5 million, and 5.4 million) is better than having one 20+ million dollar contract 3 years from now. Maybe not. I would hate to have to put a deal together, in which Philly gets something out of that deal when Chris is 36 years old and making 22 million dollars.

VF21 · Nov 19, 2005

STK - But just for giggles, WHAT IF the much more healthy Webber was still here and able to lead a slightly less revamped but still re-energized Kings to the WCF? Perhaps beyond?

Would you STILL think it was a good idea to trade him and his expiring contract?

The people who still support the trade act as though it was a lead-pipe cinch certainty that the team was doomed with him. What at least I must not be expressing clearly is that Webber's play in Philadelphia this year shows he's NOT over the hill and that perhaps, with some OTHER roster changes, we might still have been competitive this year.

That's the part that will always haunt me. In a way, had Webb not done anything in Philly this year, it would have been easier to accept that the ONLY choice was to trade him.

nbrans · Nov 19, 2005

Just for comparison sake, here are SAR's and Webber's per-48 minute numbers:

Webber: 24.5 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.92 spg, 1.44 bpg, 3.88 to
SAR: 21.1 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.38 spg, 1.38 bpg, 2.6 to

SacTownKid · Nov 19, 2005

VF21 said:

He wasn't expiring though? I don't understand what you mean with that. He expires 3 years from now.

Like I said, Webber is still a good player, but one, that the Kings felt wasn't worth 62 millions dollars over the next 3 years. Also as I stated earlier, he was putting up great numbers when he was traded so the Kings didn't trade him because he wasn't a good player.

Thats why its hard for me to understand why people think that him doing well in Philly is a slap in our face. He is putting up the numbers he put up when he was here last year. Surprised, why? What would change from then till now. Webber is talented enough to always put up his 20 and 10 or close to it but his salary was the question.

SacTownKid · Nov 19, 2005

Oh yeah, and WHAT IF Webber had gone down this year with another injury to his knee. Hello, Sacramento Knicks.

But, I don't really like to deal with "WHAT IF's. There's too many...well...what ifs.

I hope Chris does very well in this league in his life after Sacramento. I will always be a supporter of his and a fan. But, I am also a Kings fan and think the team that has been assembled now will serve us proud. I think you can be a fan of both and hope both do well.

I don't know if I support the trade or not. I think time will tell. I can see many reasons to move him, and many reasons to not move him. If I was in a similar situation though, strictly thinking business wise, I would have moved him in a hot second. The risk and reward doesn't balance out enough to me.

Bricklayer · Nov 19, 2005

SacTownKid said:

Unfortunately the salary argument never makes any sense -- his salary is still here. Its only the 20-10 we are missing. Now we have the same salary, and its giving us 9.2 and 6.9.

P.S. BTW Last year Golden State grabbed Baron Davis for a pile of expiring contracts. Unless you are in cost cutting mode, that's the sort of player you can land with a big enough expiring deal and a little foresight. Means that's Webb's deal is about 2 yrs (from now) of $40 burden, and one year of $20 mil golden opportunity. Find a struggling team in meltdown, then pillage.

VF21 · Nov 19, 2005

SacTownKid said:

I've enjoyed our discussion/debate. I didn't support the trade back then, because I didn't believe it was the only option available to improve the Kings - especially in February. Yes, a part of it was my heart. I truly believe that something very special died the minute Webber stepped on that plane for the final trip out of town and I don't see anything right now that comes close to replacing it.

But, bottom line, I too am a Kings fan. As I said, I'm really making a valiant effort to move on... I guess closure just isn't as easy as I thought it would be.

GO KINGS!!!!!

ONEZERO · Nov 19, 2005

Bricklayer said:

couldnt we have at least grabbed pj brown and george lynch, etc from the hornets for webber.... i would like baron davis, but i dont think that the kings woulda done it just for bibbys sake. instead we got thomas, corliss, and skinner... i dont know, the past thing is kinda retarded to me sometimes so ill just end this post

Zyphen · Nov 19, 2005

It wasn't that hard to get a lane stuffer and rebounder. You had Udonis Haslem, Donyell Marshall, Chris Anderson, Othella Harrington, Eddie Griffin, etc... At the minutes KT and Skinner play, we don't need much more than Bradley plus 1 other guy. We could still get Bonzi just fine plus some cash left over for Juan Dixon. Barnes might actually play, unlike Corliss.

Also the problem with the "opening the door to opportunity" argument is that you don't know what we could have gotten instead. We could have went entirely different routes. Maybe we woulda kept Bobby. Maybe we would have traded Brad. Maybe we move SAR to SF (he played that position in portland) and trade Peja and Mobley (sign&trade) to Boston for Pierce (new SG) and Lafrentz (I think he's cheap, might be wrong). The only thing I know for sure is that we had the opportunity to do just as much, if not more with our money.

According to per 48, scrubs are on par with starters and role players are superstars. Webber is playing too many minutes because Dalembert is injured. He's doing 40 minute nights, back-to-back. That's impressive in and of itself and suggests he's a lot healthier. He probably spends a chunk just conserving energy. I doubt his stats go down noticeably once Sam gets back. His assists may go up.

wow22 · Nov 19, 2005

Let's remember that SAR defends better than both vertically challenged songalia and webb.. and puts up nearly identical numbers .. at 1/5 the price: )

VF21 · Nov 19, 2005

wow22 said:

You are SERIOUSLY trying to compare SAR to Webber?

That is ...

...

Okay, I admit it. I am now offiicially speechless.

Zyphen · Nov 19, 2005

No question that SAR is better value. But we're still paying Webb's salary in the form of KT/Skinner/Corliss. The point is that MLE + Webber/Barnes/Bradley looks better than SAR + KT/Skinner/Corliss.

Or look at it this way:

Webber >>>> SAR
Barnes/Bradley/MLE >> KT/Skinner/Corliss

piksi · Nov 19, 2005

VF21 said:

Well they both had/have problems hitting FTs in their first year in Sacramento

Bricklayer · Nov 19, 2005

wow22 said:

SAR a) has never been a good defender, and b) has never had the impact of Webber, nor even put up the numbers, not even a Webber is now playing on 1 leg.

But that's beside the point, as is Shareef. He's only tangentally related to any debate here. He wasn't involved in the trade. (The tangental is whether SAR shows up if Webb is still here, although if he doesn't we obviously still have the full midlevel to spend on someone else).

Superman · Nov 20, 2005

I don't think the trade can be analyzed fairly until we see what Petrie does (or doesn't do) with the trio that we got in exchange for Webber.

One look at my avatar and you can see that I am a huge Webber supporter, even though I've been able to be critical about the impact he had - negative or positive - on the team for as long as he was with the Kings. You should also know that I would rather have Webb and his contract and his knee problems and all the other baggage that comes with him, including his talent (you can keep the Voisin articles, though), than the group we got for him. Not only were we a better team with him, but we also at least had a shot of making some noise in the playoffs. Seattle probably doesn't beat us in five if Webb is still here. But that's projection, at best.

That having been said, you can't fully gauge the impact of this trade until we see if we can get something worthwhile in exchange for any of the three - or all of them - that came over. If we wind up getting noticeably better because one or more of them gets moved for a major piece, than maybe things look a lot different than they do now. If we can get some depth at the swing positions and maybe some athleticism at 4/5, then maybe we can contend again.

And maybe not. Maybe all three of those guys walk. But it's not worth it to try and analyze the effect of the trade yet. I'm all but sure that Geoff isn't done, and he's made a lot of positive things happen for the Kings since he's been in charge.

I just hope the Maloofs don't get in his way, for crying out loud.

dukeswh · Nov 20, 2005

a lot of things have been said about the Webber trade. I am too, a Kings fan first, and would like to move on also. I admit, i'm still having a hard time putting this Webber issue behind me especially when i see the Kings struggle and the bench doesn't provide any help at all. At least with Webb, even if you don't get the numbers, you get the heart and the leadership which the stats doesn't show. but one thing that would really help to put an end to this issue (for me), is someone coming out from the Management side of the kings(be it GP or the Maloofs), and come clean about the Webber trade. Trading him for flexibility (salarywise) is BS, we cannot even trade the Philly 3 for a substantial player without adding one or two of our "core". Trading him for improvement..... yeah, right. We sure as hell improved quite a lot. No BS about the 3 being new. They had half a season, a playoff series, a summer, and a full training camp under their belt to learn the kings offense and to know their roles. Trading him because of the risk involved with having to pay a player(coming back from an injury) 60 mil does not wash with me also. I would rather risk my 60 mil on a tested player who i know will give me his all, and if it's not enough, would push his teammates to give their all, just to get 1 win, than taking a risk on paying a huge amount of money for 3 untested guys.
I cannot understand, for the life of me, why we traded a guy COMING OFF A CAREER-ENDING INJURY who is averaging 20-10-5 in the toughest conference of the NBA, for 3 scrubs???? because of the risk? guys(Joe and Gavin) you own a casino and you're afraid to gamble? rebuilding? with these 3 players?

You, know i think, closure will come to me when Jerry Reynolds or Rick Adelman does a PJ when he finally leaves Sactown for good. Can't wait for you book Rick!

Interesting take....

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