If not Ben then who

[Livinthedream]

If that was passive aggressive, I'll say what I mean a different way. Ben is on the Bench. Short leash. Anderson starts. So our analysis of Ben as a starter or major contributor right now doesn't matter. What is not being addressed is that every SG that has played for us for years has performed poorly.

I've said before what I think of PER and how it punishes players who take only a few shots a game or who play lower minutes. Besides the fact that Ben doesn't start and I really don't care if he does.

Whinning about Ben and how bad he's playing as though he has any significant role right now and complaining he getting special treatment from Cuz right before you think he may get more playing time is manipulative. It appears motivated by something other than basketball results.

 

[sdballer]

The passive aggressive Anderson thing is getting old. Ben's been miserable no matter who you compare him to. For most of his career actually.

Ben PER: 4.1
Career PER 9.0

PERs of every starting backcourt pair in the Western Conference:


Curry 37.4
Thompson 15.1

Westbrook 30.0
Roberson 9.6

Lillard 26.3
McCollom 19.0

Harden 23.1
Lawson 9.5

Bledsoe 22.9
Knight 15.4

Rubio 21.9
Wiggins 14.0

Paul 19.6
Redick 16.9

Williams 18.6
Matthews 9.9

Clarkson 17,2
Bryant 12.7

Conley 17.1
Allen 10.3

Hood 16.0
Neto 8.0

Rondo 14.0
McLemore 4.1

Gordon 13.7
Holiday 11.9

Parker 13.0
Green 7.5

Harris 11.8
Mudiay 8.2

I dunno...does one of those THIRTY numbers jump out at you a bit as being out of place. Well off the pace? Any of them?

If you take his career numbers instead of the small sample size from this year, he actually looks pretty close to a lot of the sg.

 

[LPKingsFan]

The passive aggressive Anderson thing is getting old. Ben's been miserable no matter who you compare him to. For most of his career actually.

Ben PER: 4.1
Career PER 9.0

PERs of every starting backcourt pair in the Western Conference:


Curry 37.4
Thompson 15.1

Westbrook 30.0
Roberson 9.6

Lillard 26.3
McCollom 19.0

Harden 23.1
Lawson 9.5

Bledsoe 22.9
Knight 15.4

Rubio 21.9
Wiggins 14.0

Paul 19.6
Redick 16.9

Williams 18.6
Matthews 9.9

Clarkson 17,2
Bryant 12.7

Conley 17.1
Allen 10.3

Hood 16.0
Neto 8.0

Rondo 14.0
McLemore 4.1

Gordon 13.7
Holiday 11.9

Parker 13.0
Green 7.5

Harris 11.8
Mudiay 8.2

I dunno...does one of those THIRTY numbers jump out at you a bit as being out of place. Well off the pace? Any of them?

If most of what we want from Ben is defense and three point shooting, and PER doesn't account for defense, then this is a half-baked comparison, at best. You of all people should know this, Brick.

Metrics that account for defense have their warts, but they at least do not wholly ignore that side of the ball. ESPN's real plus minus is one that seems to get it right, at least if you look at role players that do really well (which, after all, is what we want from Ben): looking at least year, Ben was 25 among shooting guards, which sounds bad until you look at who is above and below him: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/sort/RPM/position/2

Not the end all be all, of course, but interesting to consider, and much more helpful than PER.

 

[Bricklayer]

If most of what we want from Ben is defense and three point shooting, and PER doesn't account for defense, then this is a half-baked comparison, at best. You of all people should know this, Brick.

Metrics that account for defense have their warts, but they at least do not wholly ignore that side of the ball. ESPN's real plus minus is one that seems to get it right, at least if you look at role players that do really well (which, after all, is what we want from Ben): looking at least year, Ben was 25 among shooting guards, which sounds bad until you look at who is above and below him: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/sort/RPM/position/2

Not the end all be all, of course, but interesting to consider, and much more helpful than PER.

We may want defense from Ben, but we also want a competent NBA player. No player, defensive specialist or not, starts with the kind of awful up and down performances Ben has been giving. That is why I put up the PERs. He can't play if he can't play. If he were truly a defensive ace he can play at maybe a 9-10 PER. But nobody in the entire NBA gets to start and not produce at the level Ben is not producing.

 

[bajaden]

We may want defense from Ben, but we also want a competent NBA player. No player, defensive specialist or not, starts with the kind of awful up and down performances Ben has been giving. That is why I put up the PERs. He can't play if he can't play. If he were truly a defensive ace he can play at maybe a 9-10 PER. But nobody in the entire NBA gets to start and not produce at the level Ben is not producing.

It's not a fair comparison, but when Karl had McGee, he ended up not playing him much because McGee didn't know how to play the game. In some ways, Ben falls into that same category. If you concentrate on just watching him during a game, it becomes obvious that he doesn't have a feel for the game. It's not that he doesn't try hard, he does. Unfortunately, effort alone doesn't do it in the NBA. You have to know what your doing.

 

[Iced Espresso]

I wonder if we can get Thabo, and the Atlanta pick or what protections they'd want. Would get a defensive guy capable of playing the 2 or 3, and a late pick back.

 

[VF21]

It's not a fair comparison, but when Karl had McGee, he ended up not playing him much because McGee didn't know how to play the game. In some ways, Ben falls into that same category. If you concentrate on just watching him during a game, it becomes obvious that he doesn't have a feel for the game. It's not that he doesn't try hard, he does. Unfortunately, effort alone doesn't do it in the NBA. You have to know what your doing.

I think Ben is a textbook example of a player who desperately needed to stay in school to learn what basketball is all about, but because he had athletic ability AND a desire to help his family, he came out for the draft way too early.

 

[KingsFanGER]

I wonder if we can get Thabo, and the Atlanta pick or what protections they'd want. Would get a defensive guy capable of playing the 2 or 3, and a late pick back.

But Bud already has Hardaway Jr. as a young wing prospect, who will see little playing time until he learns Bud's system.

 

[Iced Espresso]

But Bud already has Hardaway Jr. as a young wing prospect, who will see little playing time until he learns Bud's system.

If we have to take similar salary back, not much out there. You are probably right too that they would decline. If we are looking for a defensive guy I'm not sure it is possible to make a trade.

 

[Spike]

If not now, then when?

 

[beb0p]

A few ideas. Just throwing stuff out there; these are guys who are available - doesn't mean these are guys I like:

OJ Mayo - He is out with hamstring injury. Could have had him for cheap last year but this year he is expiring so the Bucks could decide to hang on to him. When healthy I think his game fits into Karl's offense. Defensively not so much but he's not worse than BMac or Bel.

Derrick Rose - basing on the rumor that Bulls want to part ways with their PG and on earlier reports that Rose should be moved to SG to save his body. At any rate, his production really dropped off the face of the earth. Whoever trades for Rose is going to regret it and I won't write off the Kings in doing something this dumb.

Ben Gordon - FA. He is a career 40% 3-pt shooter. I think he may have enough gas left in the tank for a productive 15 min/game stint. Kind of an ex-high scorer turned bench scorer type. On the other hand, he may be redundant with Seth also on the roster.

Nick Young - He is a career 38% 3-pt shooter and he is available. But I just can't do it.

Lou Williams - at some point, Lakers will move Lou and tank. More proven than Seth Curry, I guess.

Dorrell Wright - Wright will happily launch three pt bombs for you. Not really a SG, a one-trick phony. But desperate times call for desperate measures, right?

Landry Fields - out until early next year. He can defend the wing but his 3-pt shot seems to have lefts him.

Terrence William - my favorite Most Talented Player Not in the NBA. Could have been Tony Allen with more offense if his head didn't get in the way. Looks like his NBA days are over.

 

[Glenn]

I have affection for Terrence Williams but he must have been a real putz.

 

[macadocious]

Maybe Ben?

 

[Livinthedream]

Danny Green and Wes Mathews are not shooting well at all. 29% from 3 for Danny. 33% for Wes. Ben shooting over 40%.

Season is still young, but do we think we could still make a trade for a better SG with the assets we have? I think Ben is holding his own for the moment and is getting better at what Karl wants.