also they are in the East (which I realize the top of the East is better but still easier to get into a 7-8 spot in the old format let alone the 9-10?)
If Fox and Hali are Cornerstones, Go Get Sabonis
- Thread starter kb02
- Start date
I'd rather just try to be good at something for once. Yeah, it's not perfect defensively, but that core would still have some realistic growth (Sabonis 25, Hali 21, Mitchell 23, PJ, 23) and I think would pretty quickly become one of the better offensive units, even if it couldn't stop a pinecone. And my guess is it'd still be better than what we have now because of full starter minutes for PJ and Davion, both of whom are upgrades on anything we're trotting out right now
twslam07
All-Star
From a defensive standpoint...
Fox < Mitchell
Haliburton = Haliburton
Barnes = Barnes
Bagley < Washington
Holmes > Sabonis
Could it be an improvement? Maybe? But considering how important the C position can be defensively these days, I'm not sure the Mitchell/Washington defensive upgrade is enough to makeup for the defensive downgrade at C. Now if you swap Barnes for Grant, I feel much more comfortable making that statement. Having two guys with great athleticism, length (Grant has a 7'2.75" wingspan & 8'11" standing reach ' Washington has a 7'2.25" wingspan & a 8'10.5" standing reach), and weakside shot blocking abilities would be excellent around Sabonis (while not really sacrificing scoring/shooting/passing on the other side of the ball).
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Are we sure Sabonis is horrible defensively at the 5? Some of the miscues could just him being miscast trying to chase around smaller 4's. And he does offer a massive rebounding upgrade, which curbs some of that defensive gap between him and Holmes.
Idk, I think defensive role players are much easier/cheaper to find. Just this off-season, the Martin twins, Dorian-Finney Smith, Kyle Anderson, Robert Covington.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Yes, any pick and roll he's involved in or action at the rim is points. And just like Fox letting guys go on D when they get past him (see that flagrant 2? That's why. He can't afford pick up fouls), Sabonis at the 5 is just as bad because too much of your half court abilities go with him when he hits the pine. The question is can he get up to a Jokic level as a go to? It would take the sting off of the shortcomings but I wouldn't bet on it. Even Jokic got bounced once mainly because of his pick and roll defense. The Nuggets without injuries is different but they are in the boat they are in. At full health they amassed the kind of talent you need before they started to settle in cap wise. Now with the injuries they might be boned. If the idea is to trade Fox and player coming back isn't a true universal talent I'd much rather them go in a Simmons/Harris direction. That at the very least is the kind of structure you see when it comes to modern small ball.
Dongoodboy
Bench
Would you do a Fox-Sabonis swap? I think I would say no but seems both teams can make a case for their players to be more valuable.
kb02
All-Star
At this point, I think the question is no longer would you trade Fox. It's who would you trade him for and at what additional cost?
Pretty obvious that this FO sees Hali as the franchise's cornerstone. As it should be.
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kb02
All-Star
Those assists numbers are juicy and is the main reason why I think he's a clear level and a half above Turner. It's been a while, but the Kings front court passing was the reason why they were so special in the early 2000s.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
If it’s a straight swap I would probably do it. I’m in the find a star and fill out with defensive role players camp.
maybe it’s one of those deals that helps both teams. Turner gets his chance in the sun and you can build around Fox Duarte and him. Maybe trade Brogdan when eligible for future assets. Plus they will likely have a top ten pick next draft.
maybe it’s one of those deals that helps both teams. Turner gets his chance in the sun and you can build around Fox Duarte and him. Maybe trade Brogdan when eligible for future assets. Plus they will likely have a top ten pick next draft.
Dongoodboy
Bench
Hali/Sabonis will be a nice combo offensively
kb02
All-Star
Yea, Sabonis wouldn't be as perfect a match as Simmons, but he does solve the offensive issues. Hali + Sabonis = Two Offensive Connectors. Would still need another defensive connector to pair with Mitchell.
Simmons would provide two offensive and two defensive connectors, which is why I've been clamoring for him since last summer.
twslam07
All-Star
Washington is a theoretical good fit next to Sabonis, but I think a Mitchell-Haliburton-Barnes-Washington-Sabonis lineup still results in a poor defensive team. If we had Mitchell-Haliburton-Grant-Washington-Sabonis (for example), I think our defense improves from where we are today.
If you don't like Washington as a theoretical good fit next to Sabonis, who would you prefer?
kb02
All-Star
If Sabonis is who the Kings get for Fox, I would go after Herb Jones or Trey Murphy. Pels drafted both last year. Or see what GSW is willing to take for Moody, who is in the G-League. Then play Sabonis as the 5 and rotate defensive bigs as needed. With Sabonis and Hali, this team will never be an elite defensive team. They just need to out efficient everyone on offense. The model would follow the early 2000 Kings, who only had one elite defender (Doug) and poached defensive specialists in FA when available (Keon Clark).
Myles Turner, Anthony Davis or JJJ.
Considering that it hasnt really worked with a very good fit next to him(considering the teams succes), its getting more and more difficult for me to see how the team could be built around him so we can maximize his strenghts and hide his weaknesses.
Offensively in order to maximize him he needs to be the one and only guy inside and the primary pick n roll screener. Defensively he needs a rim protector next to him so that he isnt the primary rim protector and the primary defender of the big in the pick n roll. Obviously he can be the 5 in some small ball lineups and against the backups.
If we cant maximize his strenghts and minimize his weaknesses, we arent getting "all star" level production (I wouldnt neccecarily even consider him as an all star level player due to the hard fit of him).
IMO its extremely hard to build a contender with Sabonis as your best or 2nd best player. Bad defending bigs are a hard fit if you want to actually compete because center is the most valuable position defensively. Its the position where you can produce the most positive and the most negative value
twslam07
All-Star
I guess I should have maybe clarified "If you don't like Washington as a theoretical good fit next to Sabonis, who would you prefer that is realistic? Agree that guys like Davis are obviously better fits.
Honestly, I don't think it will matter too much if you put a rim protecting C next to him and have him guard PFs. Team's can still put him in the PnR and you'd also have him guarding a quicker PF in isolation and be roaming around on the perimeter. I believe Turner typically matched up with the opposing team's PFs but I could be wrong.
I think your best bet is to have a couple weakside shot blockers at SF & PF who space the floor effectively. That way when Sabonis is put in the PnR you have a couple players who are able to rotate quickly and contest shots at the rim. Two of Washington, Grant, & Covington would give us that dynamic next to Sabonis, but I'm weary of a Barnes & Washington/Grant/Covington pairing as Barnes averages an abysmal 0.2 blocks per 36 min and opponents shoot 76.6% at the rim against him (and I think Barnes is generally an average defender at best). Having two guys with length, athleticism, & versatility that are strong defenders who can help protect the rim would help mitigate Sabonis' defensive weaknesses. Mitchell would also be a good complementary piece to Sabonis defensively as he can try to cover for Sabonis a bit in the PnR while having two athletic weakside shot blockers ready to rotate.
But generally speaking, I do agree that it's increasingly difficult to build the "right" team around Sabonis. You need very specific players if you hope to be a contending team one day.
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Livinthedream
All-Star
It's growing on me. I think Hali/Sabonis could be a truly special offensive duo and gives you a bunch of flexibility on how to fill out around them. I also think not forcing Sabonis to share the court with another big and keeping him at C full-time can unlock his game even further. His passing is truly special and he's not used like a #1 option for whatever reason on Indy.
Personally I don't think it would work at all. That team looks like it would have the same record as ours. Mitchell is a massive drop off from Fox. Grant is jut a high usage Barnes. He doesn't do anything that's far better than what Barnes does and he's going to cost a lot. Washington is very average but an upgrade from Bagley. Sabonis is a great player but you're going to have defensive anchor issues. Especially when there are no other plus defenders in the lineup with him.
I think there's actually several good fits we could pick up in FA:
-Either Martin twin
-Kyle Anderson (although he's more of a small-ball PF these days)
-Dorian Finney-Smith
DFS would be my top target as he's developed into one of the best 3&D wings in the league. 37, 39, 37% from 3 the last 3 years. Has flexibility to defend the 3 or the 4. Impact stats are pretty much all excellent across the board.
Davion, Washington and DFS would be a pretty solid defensive core around the Hali/Sabonis offensive duo. Certainly would be better than anything we've trotted out in a long time. That at least would be a team that has a chance of working and still have upside built in (Davion 23, PJ 23, Hali 21, Sabonis 25)
twslam07
All-Star
Well of course going from Fox to Mitchell is a drop off. I never said it wasn’t. The point is if the team has a drop off or if they get better.
I don’t agree that Grant is a high usage Barnes. Barnes isn’t the scorer Grant is (have Grant being a #3 on a championship team and Barnes as a #4 on a championship team), and he’s worse on the defensive end.
I guess we differ from a defensive standpoint. I consider Grant, Washington, & Mitchell at least above average defenders. Do I think a Sabonis led team is going to have a Top 5 defense? No, I don’t, but we just need to be around Top 10-15 to see a substantial improvement in this teams W column (especially if a Mitchell-Haliburton-Grant-Washington-Sabonis lineup w/ Hield as a 6th man can be a solid offensive team on top of that).
twslam07
All-Star
Not denying that those guys are good defenders but I question them being the right type of defenders we’d want next to Sabonis. None of them have the length and rim protecting abilities like a Grant, Washington, and Covington have.
Perhaps another option is to keep our 2022 1st and trade Fox/Barnes for Sabonis/Holiday instead with the plan of using that pick to address this long, rim protecting, floor spacing SF/PF who would be much cheaper than Grant and be on the same timeline as Mitchell, Haliburton, Washington, and Sabonis. Someone like Keegan Murray for instance seems like a solid theoretical fit. Let Holiday start at SF for the rest of year who gives some shooting and defense and then go after the right piece during the draft.
The only holdup is would McNair be patient enough to hold onto that pick or would be rather send the pick to Indiana and keep Barnes to give them another “win now” player to finish the season.
I was thinking you plug these guys at the three and you go get PJ Washington to play at the 4. Giving you 3 really strong defenders (Davion/FA wing/PJ) around your offensive studs (Hali/Sabonis).
Grant honestly isn't much of a wing anymore, he's been a small-ball 4 basically since his breakout with Denver. I think it'd be very similar to putting Barnes back at the 3; you can do it, but his clear value is at the 4.
And in general, I just don't want any part of Fox/FRP for Sabonis type of base. You have Fox for the long-term, makes no sense to lose value on him when he's your most important asset.
