If Fox and Hali are Cornerstones, Go Get Sabonis

[kb02]

My first and second preference is to trade Fox for Simmons, but if Monte keeps Fox and Hali, the only path forward is to upgrade the 5 spot. Sabonis unlocks both players' games with his passing. Fox can cut off of Sabonis and Hali's three point shooting becomes significantly deadlier with Sabonis' interior gravity.

At a minimum, will likely require three firsts. Trade Barnes plus filler for a first. Go find another first from Buddy/Bagley/Holmes and SRPs. Then trade an unprotected Kings first and the other two, newly acquired firsts for Sabonis.

Tick tock, Monte.

 

[steelevt]

I remember hearing/reading that Turner can be had for a multiple first rounders or a first rounder and filler but sabonis would need multiple firsts + an allstar/almost allstar player. I would assume that would mean fox. If we want to keep both fox and ty, I think we can only get Turner. Which I’m fine with. Helps stretch the floor for fox and a shot blocker that would help as the last line of defense when players get past fox or ty

 

[Entity]

we need to send holmes to somebody for something. if we keep depending on this guy to be our starting center we will never get where we want as long as he is on the roster as a starter.

 

[kb02]

we need to send holmes to somebody for something. if we keep depending on this guy to be our starting center we will never get where we want as long as he is on the roster as a starter.

Yea, that's why the talk of Holmes getting $15M to $20M in FA was pure craziness. I can live with $10 to $12M per year, but dude needs to be the Kings' Mr. Oh-Oh.

 

[dude12]

Just a simple observation but if both of these guys were so good and they have had solid pieces around them, why can’t they get far in the playoffs or make the playoffs at all. I suppose the same can be said about Sac with Fox and Hali too but anyways…..

I would go after wings, wings, and then more wings. Isn’t this supposed to be a wing and PG league? If we were a piece away and trying to put the finishing touch on the product, then yeah, Turner and his shot blocking becomes really attractive.

I mean, I want us to deal Holmes and TT and just rely on Len, DJ and Queta…..go get wings

 

[kb02]

Just a simple observation but if both of these guys were so good and they have had solid pieces around them, why can’t they get far in the playoffs or make the playoffs at all. I suppose the same can be said about Sac with Fox and Hali too but anyways…..

I would go after wings, wings, and then more wings. Isn’t this supposed to be a wing and PG league? If we were a piece away and trying to put the finishing touch on the product, then yeah, Turner and his shot blocking becomes really attractive.

I mean, I want us to deal Holmes and TT and just rely on Len, DJ and Queta…..go get wings

My first, second, third, fourth, and fifth choice is to go get the best perimeter defending "wing" in the league.

 

[upinsmoke]

My first, second, third, fourth, and fifth choice is to go get the best perimeter defending "wing" in the league.

I see wing is in quotation b/c assuming your talking about Simmons is actually a 4/5.

 

[Kingster]

My first, second, third, fourth, and fifth choice is to go get the best perimeter defending "wing" in the league.

That's a reason I liked Reddish. Who else is on your list?

 

[kb02]

That's a reason I liked Reddish. Who else is on your list?

I care less about filling a hole than upgrading talent. Simmons, Sabonis. That’s it. Holes can be filled in the off season. Though, again, Sabonis is a last minute IBM option for our middle manager.

 

[24 rick barry]

My first and second preference is to trade Fox for Simmons, but if Monte keeps Fox and Hali, the only path forward is to upgrade the 5 spot. Sabonis unlocks both players' games with his passing. Fox can cut off of Sabonis and Hali's three point shooting becomes significantly deadlier with Sabonis' interior gravity.

At a minimum, will likely require three firsts. Trade Barnes plus filler for a first. Go find another first from Buddy/Bagley/Holmes and SRPs. Then trade an unprotected Kings first and the other two, newly acquired firsts for Sabonis.

Tick tock, Monte.

3 firsts for Sabonis- dumb move. The Kings need to keep picks, not give them away.

 

[SacTownKid]

If you want to actually do something in they playoffs the way the game is played defensively, you don't want Sabonis. If you are a team needing that production ability, good get. Still going to haunt you on pick and roll defensively.

 

[twslam07]

Horford is the wrong arc, age wise. Not looking for a bandaid big. Want a cornerstone big. Easier to find a shot blocking big than a multi-faceted big, hence why I prefer Sabonis to Turner, who just isn’t the facilitator that Sabonis is.

For a team that is trying to compete for the playoffs now, no, Horford is not on the wrong timeline age wise.

You also have to keep in mind that what you'd have to give up for Horford is increasingly less than what you'd have to give up for Sabonis. Meaning you can use those assets in other ways while getting a C who has solid impact on winning.

A multi-faceted big may be rarer, but you're pairing him with two guards who are below average defenders. I'll repeat, the Kings biggest weakness is defense. Swapping Sabonis for Holmes makes us worse defensively and with Fox & Haliburton also in the starting lineup, you have few ways of improving that defense.

I like Sabonis in a vacuum, but I don't like the direction of the team you suggested because it continues to make the same mistakes we have made for the past 16 years: prioritizing offense over defense.

 

[kb02]

For a team that is trying to compete for the playoffs now, no, Horford is not on the wrong timeline age wise.

You also have to keep in mind that what you'd have to give up for Horford is increasingly less than what you'd have to give up for Sabonis. Meaning you can use those assets in other ways while getting a C who has solid impact on winning.

A multi-faceted big may be rarer, but you're pairing him with two guards who are below average defenders. I'll repeat, the Kings biggest weakness is defense. Swapping Sabonis for Holmes makes us worse defensively and with Fox & Haliburton also in the starting lineup, you have few ways of improving that defense.

I like Sabonis in a vacuum, but I don't like the direction of the team you suggested because it continues to make the same mistakes we have made for the past 16 years: prioritizing offense over defense.

Who said anything about making the playoffs now? Don’t care about the playoffs. Care about upgrading talent that fits the arc. Not an old dude on his last legs.

 

[kb02]

3 firsts for Sabonis- dumb move. The Kings need to keep picks, not give them away.

My first choice is Fox for Sabonis, but if our middle manager doesn’t make that move, this is the next best move. With Sabonis, those firsts are mid teens or later picks.

 

[twslam07]

Who said anything about making the playoffs now? Don’t care about the playoffs. Care about upgrading talent that fits the arc. Not an old dude on his last legs.

Whether we abide by McNair's openly stated vision of wanting to be competitive now in an effort to make the playoffs this year or your preference of simply improving the team for the future (and not worrying about making the playoffs this year), I wouldn't do this trade either way.

Again, you're building a core of Fox, Haliburton, & Sabonis which has the makings of being a very poor defensive team. I've seen enough of that the past 16 years. We need to address the defensive side of the ball.

 

[twslam07]

My first choice is Fox for Sabonis, but if our middle manager doesn’t make that move, this is the next best move. With Sabonis, those firsts are mid teens or later picks.

What makes you think Fox for Sabonis is on the table from Indiana's perspective? You word this like the deal is there for the taking and that all McNair has to do is say "yes." That's pretty disingenuous.

 

[kb02]

What makes you think Fox for Sabonis is on the table from Indiana's perspective? You word this like the deal is there for the taking and that all McNair has to do is say "yes." That's pretty disingenuous.

Meant Simmons. Not Sabonis.

 

[kb02]

Whether we abide by McNair's openly stated vision of wanting to be competitive now in an effort to make the playoffs this year or your preference of simply improving the team for the future (and not worrying about making the playoffs this year), I wouldn't do this trade either way.

Again, you're building a core of Fox, Haliburton, & Sabonis which has the makings of being a very poor defensive team. I've seen enough of that the past 16 years. We need to address the defensive side of the ball.

Offense isn’t the issue. How the Kings score is. With Sabonis, less pace, more efficiency on offense leads to lower opponent points, because the Kings aren’t trying out run everyone. While Sabonis doesn’t solve the interior defensive issues, it’s much easier to find a Javale McGee type in FA than a Sabonis.

 

[twslam07]

Offense isn’t the issue. How the Kings score is. With Sabonis, less pace, more efficiency on offense leads to lower opponent points, because the Kings aren’t trying out run everyone. While Sabonis doesn’t solve the interior defensive issues, it’s much easier to find a Javale McGee type in FA than a Sabonis.

Kings are 27th in Def Rtg this year which controls for running/pace.

Trading for Sabonis and proceeding with a Fox/Haliburton/Sabonis trio (vs. a Fox/Haliburton/Holmes trio) downgrades the defense even more, correct? How do we expect to be any good if we continue to overlook the defensive side of the ball and end up with cores that look good on paper but produce a bottom dwelling defense?

 

[twslam07]

Meant Simmons. Not Sabonis.

I think the same applies in this instance. How do you know Fox for Simmons is sitting on McNair's desk waiting for him to say "yes?"

 

[kb02]

Kings are 27th in Def Rtg this year which controls for running/pace.

Trading for Sabonis and proceeding with a Fox/Haliburton/Sabonis trio (vs. a Fox/Haliburton/Holmes trio) downgrades the defense even more, correct? How do we expect to be any good if we continue to overlook the defensive side of the ball and end up with cores that look good on paper but produce a bottom dwelling defense?

Offense becomes more efficient with Sabonis. Instead of relying on running for scoring, the Kings will actually be able to score in the half court. Fixing the defense can be done via other moves though with these three, the Kings will never ne an elite defensive team, which is the whole point of the post…if Hali and Fox are indeed the cornerstones, the move is Sabonis.

 

[kb02]

I think the same applies in this instance. How do you know Fox for Simmons is sitting on McNair's desk waiting for him to say "yes?"

First chair GMs make bold moves. It’s a matter of how much someone is willing to pay.

 

[kb02]

"Not want" and saying it's "foolish" are two different things.

I've already posted a couple of my thoughts on a Horford trade, but I've thrown out variations like:

Trade #1
BOS Gets: Marvin Bagley, Tristan Thompson, Mo Harkless, & 2022 SAC 2nd
SAC Gets: Al Horford & Aaron Nesmith

Trade #2
BOS Gets: Buddy Hield, Derrick Favors, & Mike Muscala
OKC Gets: Juan Hernangomez, Dennis Schroder, Mo Harkless, 2022 SAC 2nd, & 2023 SAC 2nd
SAC Gets: Al Horford, Aaron Nesmith, & Kenrich Williams



I'm only making a Horford trade if I have a trade lined up for Holmes which is why I keep coming back to Holmes for Ish Smith & PJ Washington to give us a 23 year old SF/PF that has the ability to help us now while also growing with our core, young guys. In the meantime, Horford addresses our 3 biggest weaknesses: defense, playmaking/passing from the frontcourt, & shooting from the frontcourt.

Obviously, Horford won't be in the long term plans, but he can help with McNair's objective of competing this season, addresses are 3 biggest weaknesses, is a great locker room presence & mentor, plays a style that will help maximize Fox & Haliburton's abilities (or Simmons & Haliburton), and he's likely cheap to pry away from BOS (considering they really like Robert Williams over there) which allows us to use our assets on other upgrades or allows us to keep our youth/picks in place to continue building towards the future.

Oh and here are his advanced impact stats this year compared to some of the other relevant bigs mentioned:

View attachment 10848

The most important data point here is 35.

 

[twslam07]

Offense becomes more efficient with Sabonis. Instead of relying on running for scoring, the Kings will actually be able to score in the half court. Fixing the defense can be done via other moves though with these three, the Kings will never ne an elite defensive team, which is the whole point of the post…if Hali and Fox are indeed the cornerstones, the move is Sabonis.

Nobody is saying they need to be the best defensive team in the league, but good teams are usually at least average at both. Your path of a Fox-Haliburton-Sabonis core essentially limits the team's ceiling because it limits how good we can be defensively. And as I said before, we're 27th in the league in defense. Now swap Holmes minutes for Sabonis and you'd see that ranking drop even further.

You're not going to be a good team with a bottom dwelling defense, and I highly doubt that you're going to be able to improve the defense significantly when you only have two other positions to work with. Especially when those two positions aren't nearly as valuable as C is on the defensive end.

But for the fun of it, what are the moves that you're going to make that would improve the defense next to Fox, Haliburton, & Sabonis?

 

[twslam07]

First chair GMs make bold moves. It’s a matter of how much someone is willing to pay.

There you go. At least you can admit that a Simmons for Fox deal isn't 100% on the table for McNair to say "yes." Glad we clarified that.

 

[kb02]

Nobody is saying they need to be the best defensive team in the league, but good teams are usually at least average at both. Your path of a Fox-Haliburton-Sabonis core essentially limits the team's ceiling because it limits how good we can be defensively. And as I said before, we're 27th in the league in defense. Now swap Holmes minutes for Sabonis and you'd see that ranking drop even further.

You're not going to be a good team with a bottom dwelling defense and I highly doubt that you're going to be able to improve the defense significantly when you only have two other positions to work with. Especially when those two positions aren't nearly as valuable as C is on the defensive end.

Pretty simple: Fox + Hali + Sabonis > Fox + Hali + Holmes. By a mile.

Though I do find this entire convo to be a lil funny, since I’m the dude who has been advocating for Simmons and wanting to draft Herb Jones and pivoting to defense since the summer.

Maybe instead of trying to push your narrative, look at the context of the thread, which is that if Fox and Hali are the cornerstones, you double down on the offense. Why? If Fox and Hali are your cornerstones, your team will always be an offense first team.

 

[kb02]

There you go. At least you can admit that a Simmons for Fox deal isn't 100% on the table for McNair to say "yes." Glad we clarified that.

All players are tradeable. You should know, given your propensity for proposing huge multi team trades that never, ever happen. Just smh.

 

[twslam07]

The most important data point here is 35.

What weighs more...a pound of feathers or a pound of bricks? His age doesn't change his impact on the floor. His impact is his impact.

And of top of that impact, he's a good defender (unlike Sabonis) and would likely cost us Hield, expirings, and/or 2nds (unlike Sabonis who you said would take a minimum of three 1sts).

 

[twslam07]

All players are tradeable. You should know, given your propensity for proposing huge multi team trades that never, ever happen. Just smh.

That's okay. You can take some cheap shots if you'd like.

I'm just glad to see you acknowledge that a Simmons for Fox deal isn't definitely sitting on McNair's deck. It takes two to tango (which I think you know now).

 

[kb02]

That's okay. You can take some cheap shots if you'd like.

I'm just glad to see you acknowledge that a Simmons for Fox deal isn't definitely sitting on McNair's deck. It takes two to tango (which I think you know now).

What cheap shots? You make these multi-player, multi-team trades, which is based on your belief that those players are available. I make a proposal for one player, who is obviously available for the right price. The odds are on my side, dude. I just need to be right once. You need to be right 10+ times. Thought you were a quant guy.