If Fox and Hali are Cornerstones, Go Get Sabonis

[twslam07]

Pretty simple: Fox + Hali + Sabonis > Fox + Hali + Holmes. By a mile.

Though I do find this entire convo to be a lil funny, since I’m the dude who has been advocating for Simmons and wanting to draft Herb Jones and pivoting to defense since the summer.

Maybe instead of trying to push your narrative, look at the context of the thread, which is that if Fox and Hali are the cornerstones, you double down on the offense. Why? If Fox and Hali are your cornerstones, your team will always be an offense first team.

You think Fox-Haliburton-Sabonis > Fox-Haliburton-Holmes on defense? Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion but if that's how you perceive their defense, I'm not sure we'll ever find common ground.

And no, you don't double down on offense. Again, good teams have some semblance of balance. In one breath you say the defense can be addressed elsewhere and the next breath you say double down on the offense. It's inconsistent.

 

[twslam07]

Age is undefeated. No one cares about making the playoffs except you, McNair, and Vivek. Not exactly great company, if you haven’t noticed.

You very well know my preference on how I would rebuild this team considering you are referencing previous trades of mine. What is it? Do you keep track of my trade posts and know my thoughts on rebuilding or is this the first time you have come across my posts? You're inconsistent again and being disingenuous in an attempt to win points.

McNair has been open about competing now and going for the playoffs. Even though I disagree with the strategy, I can also recognize that rebuilding trade ideas at this point are unrealistic and a waste of my time (but maybe they're not a waste of time for you and that's fine).

 

[twslam07]

What cheap shots? You make these multi-player, multi-team trades, which is based on your belief that those players are available. I make a proposal for one player, who is obviously available for the right price. The odds are on my side, dude. I just need to be right once. You need to be right 10+ times. Thought you were a quant guy.

Your trade literally mentions Barnes & filler and Buddy/Bagley/Holmes made as separate trades to then get the assets to trade for Sabonis. That seems like multiple players and multiple trades to get to your ultimate goal, no?

 

[kb02]

Your trade literally mentions Barnes & filler and Buddy/Bagley/Holmes made as separate trades to then get the assets to trade for Sabonis. That seems like multiple players and multiple trades to get to your ultimate goal, no?

Within this thread, the odds of Sabonis being available for the right price is still better than the odds of Horford and Washington being available. No?

 

[twslam07]

Within this thread, the odds of Sabonis being available for the right price is still better than the odds of Horford and Washington being available. No?

You call me out for posting ideas that include multiple trades and multiple players but you made this thread doing the exact same thing. Pot meet kettle.

 

[kb02]

You call me out for posting ideas that include multiple trades and multiple players but you made this thread doing the exact same thing. Pot meet kettle.

No, dude. I call you out on asking me to prove that I know Simmons is available. Well, I believe he’s available for the right price. Just like how you believe Horford and Washington are available for the right price. My odds of being tight is 100% better than yours, because I just need to be right once.

 

[twslam07]

No, dude. I call you out on asking me to prove that I know Simmons is available. Well, I believe he’s available for the right price. Just like how you believe Horford and Washington are available for the right price. My odds of being tight is 100% better than yours, because I just need to be right once.

You’re moving the goal posts.

I did not call you out and ask you to prove Simmons is available. I did call you out when you made it seem like Fox for Simmons was available to McNair. That’s a major difference and perhaps one you glossed over.

 

[kb02]

You’re moving the goal posts.

I did not call you out and ask you to prove Simmons is available. I did call you out when you made it seem like Fox for Simmons was available to McNair. That’s a major difference and perhaps one you glossed over.

Please enlighten us on the difference.

Let me help you. Here’s a post from earlier this thread: “But, again, my preference is to get Simmons. This is a Middle Manager Monte, buy the IBM deal at the deadline if everything else collapses situation.”

 

[twslam07]

Please enlighten us on the difference.

One means that PHI is open to moving Simmons (we agree). The other assumes Morey is willing to do Simmons for Fox and all McNair has to do is say “yes” (I didn’t know how someone could come to that conclusion).

Pretty straight forward.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Thread locked for cleanup. Might be reopened. We'll see.

Edit: I have deleted one line of discussion and several individual posts that were clear Rule #1 ("Don't be a jerk") violations. Although the "how do you know that player is available" discussion got a bit chippy, I have left it largely intact. That said, that particular discussion has run its course and further replies in that vein or attempts to reopen that particular argument will be deleted with warning points issued.

As this thread is about the idea of acquiring Sabonis, please try to stay on topic. Discussion of the idea of acquiring Al Horford will be moved to a new thread ASAP and the thread will be reopened.

 

[kb02]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1483447309748903936

https://twitter.com/statuses/1483440326274605056

No brainer.

 

[twslam07]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1483447309748903936

https://twitter.com/statuses/1483440326274605056

No brainer.

If you're going with Sabonis, you need to load up with defensive talent. Something like...

Trade #1: De'Aaron Fox/Harrison Barnes for Domatas Sabonis/Justin Holiday
Trade #2: Marvin Bagley/2022 SAC 1st for Jerami Grant
Trade #3: Richaun Holmes for Ish Smith/PJ Washington

PG - Mitchell / Smith
SG - Haliburton / Hield / Davis / Ramsey
SF - Grant / Holiday / Woodard
PF - Washington / Metu / Harkless
C - Sabonis / Jones / Len

Mitchell, Grant, & Washington are all solid defenders. Mitchell can help makeup for some of Sabonis PnR defensive struggles and both Grant & Washington can help protect the rim and be weakside shotblockers (something Sabonis isn't particularly good at).

 

[kb02]

If you're going with Sabonis, you need to load up with defensive talent. Something like...

Trade #1: De'Aaron Fox/Harrison Barnes for Domatas Sabonis/Justin Holiday
Trade #2: Marvin Bagley/2022 SAC 1st for Jerami Grant
Trade #3: Richaun Holmes for Ish Smith/PJ Washington

PG - Mitchell / Smith
SG - Haliburton / Hield / Davis / Ramsey
SF - Grant / Holiday / Woodard
PF - Washington / Metu / Harkless
C - Sabonis / Jones / Len

Mitchell, Grant, & Washington are all solid defenders. Mitchell can help makeup for some of Sabonis PnR defensive struggles and both Grant & Washington can help protect the rim and be weakside shotblockers (something Sabonis isn't particularly good at).

Grant is a no-go. Dude wants to be THE PRIMARY SCORER. Others? Sure. I'm not a huge fan of Holmes. Like him, but he's a bench big.

 

[Kingster]

I don't both are cornerstones. Halliburton can play with anyone on the floor. Fox can't. I would be delighted if Fox was traded for a legit wing and other complementary pieces. A lot of what is wrong with this team is that their on the court chemistry sucks. The whole is less than the sum of the pieces. They need to change that. Pronto.

 

[twslam07]

Grant is a no-go. Dude wants to be THE PRIMARY SCORER. Others? Sure. I'm not a huge fan of Holmes. Like him, but he's a bench big.

Well Grant is currently averaging more PPG than Mitchell, Haliburton, Hield, Washington, & Sabonis.

Can you share the articles that say he wants to be THE primary scorer? I've seen things like he wanted his offensive role expanded, but haven't seen articles claiming that he sees himself as the #1 option/primary scorer.

 

[Spike]

If we trade Fox for Sabonis, we haven't really solved our crunch time scoring issues. If we can somehow swing Barnes/Buddy/Bagley/picks/whatever for Sabonis, then I'd be all in (although if Fox is moving on, Buddy needs to stay), because it would be an overall upgrade. Mitchell isn't ready yet, and frankly, I don't know that he's a starter on a playoff team, which is ultimately what we're trying to accomplish.

I agree that the 3 and 4 spots need upgrading with overall talent, regardless of who gets moved at the deadline, but also with a push towards defensive ability. I think Grant would be a good move as well, if Fox is gone, because we still will need scorers. You can't just assume Mitchell will produce, nor will Haliburton once he's the guy getting marked by opposing defenses. I'm assuming that Barnes is gone in most scenarios.

I think Turner can be had more readily than Sabonis, and would be a better fit with a backcourt of Fox/Haliburton, but that's just me.

 

[Joshoua]

Well Grant is currently averaging more PPG than Mitchell, Haliburton, Hield, Washington, & Sabonis.

Can you share the articles that say he wants to be THE primary scorer? I've seen things like he wanted his offensive role expanded, but haven't seen articles claiming that he sees himself as the #1 option/primary scorer.

Last two seasons he’s shooting 43% from the field that’s not good no matter what his ppg is. But if he’s done being the third man I’d go for him

 

[twslam07]

Last two seasons he’s shooting 43% from the field that’s not good no matter what his ppg is. But if he’s done being the third man I’d go for him

Well he’s been the 1st option there (scored 5-8 more PPG than the next guy) and has no business being a 1st option on a contending team. Even being a 1st option he posts a decent 55% TS% so it’s not catastrophic by any means.

 

[kb02]

Well Grant is currently averaging more PPG than Mitchell, Haliburton, Hield, Washington, & Sabonis.

Can you share the articles that say he wants to be THE primary scorer? I've seen things like he wanted his offensive role expanded, but haven't seen articles claiming that he sees himself as the #1 option/primary scorer.

PPG is a byproduct of him being the first option on a crappy team.

"For any team to sign off on a trade for Grant, they'll need assurances of his plans to re-sign this offseason, just like Gordon did in Denver. Grant also has little interest in joining a new situation where he doesn't feature as a primary offensive option, sources said."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...he-market-for-nba-trade-deadlines-grand-prize


Plus: Sources say Grant expects to sign a lucrative extension in the ballpark of four years, $112 million this offseason.

 

[twslam07]

PPG is a byproduct of him being the first option on a crappy team.

"For any team to sign off on a trade for Grant, they'll need assurances of his plans to re-sign this offseason, just like Gordon did in Denver. Grant also has little interest in joining a new situation where he doesn't feature as a primary offensive option, sources said."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...he-market-for-nba-trade-deadlines-grand-prize


Plus: Sources say Grant expects to sign a lucrative extension in the ballpark of four years, $112 million this offseason.

“A primary option.” I think it’s fair to say that can be taken differently than “THE primary option,” yeah?

However, that extension expectation scares me. No way he's worth that amount. That's 2nd best player money IMO. Obviously some of these reports are for negotiation purposes, but I'd be looking at keeping him at a similar salary level ($20 mil).

If that's the case, I'd likely retain Barnes and reroute our 2022 1st to Indiana instead.

PG - Mitchell / Smith
SG - Haliburton / Hield / Davis / Ramsey
SF - Barnes / Holiday / Woodard
PF - Washington / Metu / Harkless
C - Sabonis / Jones / Len

Not quite the defensive team I would like next to Sabonis though. Think we would still really struggle on that side of the ball.

 

[kb02]

“A primary option.” I think it’s fair to say that can be taken differently than “THE primary option,” yeah?

However, that extension expectation scares me. No way he's worth that amount. That's 2nd best player money IMO. Obviously some of these reports are for negotiation purposes, but I'd be looking at keeping him at a similar salary level ($20 mil).

If that's the case, I'd likely retain Barnes and reroute our 2022 1st to Indiana instead.

PG - Mitchell / Smith
SG - Haliburton / Hield / Davis / Ramsey
SF - Barnes / Holiday / Woodard
PF - Washington / Metu / Harkless
C - Sabonis / Jones / Len

Not quite the defensive team I would like next to Sabonis though. Think we would still really struggle on that side of the ball.

Grant chose Detroit over Denver, because he wanted to be the primary option. He is, at best, a third option. It's just not going to work with him, if that's his mindset.

 

[The_Jamal]

“A primary option.” I think it’s fair to say that can be taken differently than “THE primary option,” yeah?

However, that extension expectation scares me. No way he's worth that amount. That's 2nd best player money IMO. Obviously some of these reports are for negotiation purposes, but I'd be looking at keeping him at a similar salary level ($20 mil).

If that's the case, I'd likely retain Barnes and reroute our 2022 1st to Indiana instead.

PG - Mitchell / Smith
SG - Haliburton / Hield / Davis / Ramsey
SF - Barnes / Holiday / Woodard
PF - Washington / Metu / Harkless
C - Sabonis / Jones / Len

Not quite the defensive team I would like next to Sabonis though. Think we would still really struggle on that side of the ball.

I don't think you'd need to send a FRP to Indy for Sabonis if Fox is in the deal. I'd pass at that point. Can also use Barnes for a more natural wing fit (Pat Williams deal pleeeeaassseee)

But if you were able to keep that pick, use it to address the wing spot and I think you could have a seriously dynamic offensive core. Hali/Sabonis creativity would be a super fun build around with their IQ/passing and Mitchell/PJ I think would be excellent complimentary pieces. Especially if we get a more consistent offensive Mitchell and not a dude who pops every 6 games.

 

[twslam07]

If we trade Fox for Sabonis, we haven't really solved our crunch time scoring issues. If we can somehow swing Barnes/Buddy/Bagley/picks/whatever for Sabonis, then I'd be all in (although if Fox is moving on, Buddy needs to stay), because it would be an overall upgrade. Mitchell isn't ready yet, and frankly, I don't know that he's a starter on a playoff team, which is ultimately what we're trying to accomplish.

I agree that the 3 and 4 spots need upgrading with overall talent, regardless of who gets moved at the deadline, but also with a push towards defensive ability. I think Grant would be a good move as well, if Fox is gone, because we still will need scorers. You can't just assume Mitchell will produce, nor will Haliburton once he's the guy getting marked by opposing defenses. I'm assuming that Barnes is gone in most scenarios.

I think Turner can be had more readily than Sabonis, and would be a better fit with a backcourt of Fox/Haliburton, but that's just me.

Myles Turner
Justin Holiday

for

Marvin Bagley
Tristan Thompson
Davion Mitchell
2022 SAC 1st (Top 4 Protected)


Indiana reportedly wants two 1st round picks or a young player and a 1st round pick for Turner (Mitchell & our 1st fits that report fairly well). Then you flip Holmes for Ish Smith & PJ Washington.

PG - Fox / Smith
SG - Haliburton / Hield / Davis / Ramsey
SF - Barnes / Holiday / Woodard
PF - Washington / Metu / Harkless
C - Turner / Jones / Len

• Turner & Washington are a big defensive upgrade over Holmes & Bagley
• Turner & Washington are a big shooting upgrade over Holmes & Bagley
• Turner & Washington (mainly Washington) are a big passing/playmaking upgrade over Holmes & Bagley
• Holiday is also a very solid bench piece who can a little defense & shoot

 

[twslam07]

Grant chose Detroit over Denver, because he wanted to be the primary option. He is, at best, a third option. It's just not going to work with him, if that's his mindset.

In regards to the bolded/underlined, this is what I was trying to find an article for. I haven't seen that reported that he wanted to be THE primary option.

 

[twslam07]

I don't think you'd need to send a FRP to Indy for Sabonis if Fox is in the deal. I'd pass at that point. Can also use Barnes for a more natural wing fit (Pat Williams deal pleeeeaassseee)

But if you were able to keep that pick, use it to address the wing spot and I think you could have a seriously dynamic offensive core. Hali/Sabonis creativity would be a super fun build around with their IQ/passing and Mitchell/PJ I think would be excellent complimentary pieces. Especially if we get a more consistent offensive Mitchell and not a dude who pops every 6 games.

I think we'd have to give up an additional asset on top of Fox unfortunately, but I'd be more than happy to be wrong.

Williams is actually an interesting fit next to Sabonis with his size, length, athleticism, versatility, defense, and shooting potential, but I'd be surprised if McNair traded someone who could help him this season for someone who appears like they will be out for the rest of the season. It just doesn't coincide with his messaging.

You're right about the passing though. It would be interesting with those guys together on offense (although I still have my reservations about it defensively). In fact, this would be the AST:TO for all 5 of our starters:

PG - Mitchell = 3.31
SG - Haliburton = 3.23
SF - Barnes = 1.43
PF - Washington = 1.56
C - Sabonis = 1.57

That's pretty darn solid for an entire starting lineup.

 

[kb02]

In regards to the bolded/underlined, this is what I was trying to find an article for. I haven't seen that reported that he wanted to be THE primary option.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nb...imself-and-that-bet-is-paying-off/ar-BB1dz0oA

 

[twslam07]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nb...imself-and-that-bet-is-paying-off/ar-BB1dz0oA

Thanks for sharing. I see this quote...

But Jerami Grant saw more for himself than a complementary role, and despite 99.9 percent of the basketball world questioning his belief that he was ready to be "the guy" on any team, let alone a winning one, he disembarked for the Motor City

How does the writer know that is his belief? The writer is not quoting Grant. Wondering if he's just assuming in this particular instance.

 

[steelevt]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1483447309748903936

https://twitter.com/statuses/1483440326274605056

No brainer.

Ok. Now can you start campaigning for us to get giannis or kd? Maybe jerry west to the front office? I get the feeling we have someone else besides @SLAB that can start speaking things into existence

 

[kb02]

Thanks for sharing. I see this quote...



How does the writer know that is his belief? The writer is not quoting Grant. Wondering if he's just assuming in this particular instance.

You can go look for it, but there is a 24/7 Sports (formerly Scout.com...) article that cites Grant and Weaver (the GM) and their Syracuse connection. Essentially, Weaver gave him a chance to be the man. Denver was willing to match. It paid off for the both them since Weaver will likely be able to turn nothing into a first and a promising youngster.

 

[kb02]

Ok. Now can you start campaigning for us to get giannis or kd? Maybe jerry west to the front office? I get the feeling we have someone else besides @SLAB that can start speaking things into existence

I wish I had Slab's powers.

I pretty much trade/invest for a living and a lot of it is just trying to figure out the size of the market, the arc of the company/opportunity, the quality of the CEO (or leadership team), and making a bet (long mostly, short sometimes) on the company. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. Applying the same overlay to the Kings and what I think their next step should or should not be. Sometimes I'm wrong, sometimes I'm right.

And if I had any say, I would give up a first for Sam Presti of OKC. Currently, I think dude is in a class by himself as an NBA exec.