A
AriesMar27
Guest
too true....
I think Brad Miller will be traded!
- Thread starter TheJoker
- Start date
too true....
Year Brad Miller was born: 1976
Teams since 1976 that have won the NBA Championship with a perimeter jump-shooting center: 1
How does that stat grab you?
EDIT - I stand corrected: apparently, Laimbeer spent quite a bit of time on the perimeter. I certainly wouldn't want to put the Kings' championship aspirations on Miller becoming the next Laimbeer, though.
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I've been saying that for a month now.
I think it would surprise the hell out of Bill Laimbeer.
Clearly, I have a different recollection of Laimbeer's game.
So I was wrong, and there's one instead of none: does anybody really believe that the Kings will make it two with Miller at center?
So I was wrong, and there's one instead of none: does anybody really believe that the Kings will make it two with Miller at center?
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nbrans
All-Star
It would also surprise the hell out of Luc Longley and Bill Cartwright,
Longley and Cartwright were NOT perimeter jumpshooters, that much I'm sure of.
walker60
Bench
How do you know that? Dampier/Diop are the same type of player. A little diversity would help the Mavs out at the Center position. Often times they were forced to go extra small with Van Horn and Nowitzki together to get some extra offense out there. Miller provides more than Van Horn does.
Chandler averaged less than two points a game. Anyway you slice it he did terrible. Talk all you want about intangibles, this guy didn't contribute much. Seriously, look at his numbers. He had more fouls and turnovers than points, assists, blocks, and steals combined. One game he had 5 fouls in five minutes. But hey, I'm sure he played awesome defense while he was out there.
Collins isn't a bad player. But he doesn't deserve to be in the same conversation as Miller. He is simply a 15 minute a night Center that will provide absolutley nothing but decent post defense.
I know that from watching Diop/Dampier basically all playoffs long, and from parts of the regular season. Their defense and intangibles was a key thing for Dallas' success this season. With Brad replacing one of them, they're not near as good defensively, weaker in the front-court, get softer, and don't go as far with one of them gone. A perfect example being Diop, as he played Duncan very well in the latter part of G7.
Collins is still is an intangible guy, and is a key part of the Nets team. All he is an intangible guy, I've already said that a few times, and it's obvious from watching him. Collins > Miller on defense, no doubt. Kidd/Carter/RJ/Krstic/Brad is not better overall than Kidd/Carter/RJ/Collins/Krstic. Why? Defense. Nets aren't as good or go as far without Collins and replaced by Miller.
I already talked about Chandler's stats in the playoffs a few times before, and have recently. But with Chandler, he didn't put up good stats, yup, and was facing Shaq. But, had a solid series because of the other things he brought Hustle, defense, energy, athleticism all series long. Having watched the Bulls regularily since 04-05, and watching the whole playoff series, he was indeed a big part of them giving the Heat problems. Without Chandler, and soft Miller replacing him, the Bulls likely don't go as far.
As I've said, Miller > all of them on offense. But absolutely not on defense.
Collins is still is an intangible guy, and is a key part of the Nets team. All he is an intangible guy, I've already said that a few times, and it's obvious from watching him. Collins > Miller on defense, no doubt. Kidd/Carter/RJ/Krstic/Brad is not better overall than Kidd/Carter/RJ/Collins/Krstic. Why? Defense. Nets aren't as good or go as far without Collins and replaced by Miller.
I already talked about Chandler's stats in the playoffs a few times before, and have recently. But with Chandler, he didn't put up good stats, yup, and was facing Shaq. But, had a solid series because of the other things he brought Hustle, defense, energy, athleticism all series long. Having watched the Bulls regularily since 04-05, and watching the whole playoff series, he was indeed a big part of them giving the Heat problems. Without Chandler, and soft Miller replacing him, the Bulls likely don't go as far.
As I've said, Miller > all of them on offense. But absolutely not on defense.
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walker60
Bench
I was born far after 1976 so I had to research some of this stuff to see how that stat 'grabbed' me. I'll start with the more recent ones and work my way back.
-The Bulls won 3 championships with Luc Longley and Wennington. Look at Longley's stats or read a bio of him. He was a soft-shooting big man with good touch and he was a good passer too. Sounds a little like Miller to me. Luc Longley never shot a great FG%, and that was because he was a jump shooter. Posting up was not a big part of his game.
-The Bulls won their first 3 championships with Scott Williams and Bill Cartwright. They were jump shooters as well. Especially, Scott Williams. I remember him being a very good mid-range jump shooter through out his career. Horace Grant was a good jump shooter at PF too. Here's a quote from Cartwright.
"I could always shoot," Cartwright said. "It's funny to me when people said things like he shoots well for a big man. You can either shoot or not, no matter what your size and I had the ability to shoot."
Don't you remember how low his release point was? That was always a shot that has stood out in my mind...
-Bill Laimbeer won two titles. He was a jump shooter too.
-Jack Sikma won a title with the Sonics. He was a jump shooter who was a good passer. He was comparable to Vlade Divac and Andrew Bogut.
-The Bullets won two titles with Elvin Hayes as their Center. He did post up, but his signature move was the turnaround jump shot. That's still a jump shot right?
Okay, so he's a question mark. I won't count him.The other titles were won by Centers since 1976 were Hall of Famers. David Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Chief (I don't think he was a hall of famer), Moses Malone, Elvin Hayes, Bill Walton, and Dave Cowens were all Centers that have won titles in Brad Miller's lifetime.
The only teams that did not have that type of Center who was Hall of fame material and didn't shoot jump shots was the Spurs with Nazr Mohammed (although the have a PF who plays like a C) and the Pistons with Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace is certainly better than Chandler or Dampier. Only Nazr Mohammed had similar skills to those two and won the title. That's right...one Center who sucked at offense, was a decent rebounder, and a decent shotblocker has won the title. His name was Nazr Mohammed.
To me, the best way to get an NBA title is to have a Hall of Fame Center on your team. Well, that isn't going to happen anytime soon with the Kings. The next bet is to try and win it with a highly-skilled Center like the '79 Sonics, the '89-90 Pistons, the '91-93 Bulls, or the '95-'98 Bulls. That's a total of 9 titles that have won the title with a jump-shooting Center.
It's one of the most tried and true strategies in the book and I'm surprised that so many people on this board have failed to recognize it. You take a C who can hit jump shots and put him out on the perimiter. That draws the opposing teams big man away from the hoop and allows the other players to drive or post up much easier. It's called creating space.
This is very important for the Kings because we have so many post players (Bonzi, Artest, SAR, even KT when he has the right matchup). Unfortunately, Brad Miller had a bad series, but what he does for us is very important for our other players. I say we sign a shot-blocking backup C, and trade KT for a better defensive PF. That will give us a better interior presence, yet still allows us to have proper spacing on the court. I don't see the need to clog the lane with a stiff like Dampier or Chandler while getting rid of Miller. Sign someone like Cato, he isn't a whole lot worse then either of those two anyways. IMO, having someone like Chandler or Dampier would creat the following: The benefits we would receive on defense would be far outweighed by the negative effects on our offense.
Oh man, I just realized that post took me forever! Sheesh!
walker60
Bench
No argument here on that. But Miller > all of them overall. I think that's where we disagree.
nbrans
All-Star
Er, yes they were.
No, they weren't. Not unless they moved the perimeter to 15-18 feet.
walker60
Bench
If you are 7 feet tall, do not post up, and rely on a jump shot from 15-18 feet, you are considered a jump shooter. Are you suggesting that you have to shoot 3's to be a perimiter shooting big man? Because then there are only a handful of Centers in NBA history who have done that. And then Miller wouldn't even be in that group.
Apparently decided to ignore the "perimeter" part. I admit to being wrong about Laimbeer, but Longley, Wennington, Cartwright, Sikma and Hayes (Elvin Hayes a perimeter player? Are you kidding me?) were not perimeter jumpshooters. Sure, they could hit a midrange jumper, but back when they played, everybody could hit a midrange jumper. Players actually came into the league as complete players in those days, rather than projects.I was born far after 1976 so I had to research some of this stuff to see how that stat 'grabbed' me. I'll start with the more recent ones and work my way back.
-The Bulls won 3 championships with Luc Longley and Wennington. Look at Longley's stats or read a bio of him. He was a soft-shooting big man with good touch and he was a good passer too. Sounds a little like Miller to me. Luc Longley never shot a great FG%, and that was because he was a jump shooter. Posting up was not a big part of his game.
-The Bulls won their first 3 championships with Scott Williams and Bill Cartwright. They were jump shooters as well. Especially, Scott Williams. I remember him being a very good mid-range jump shooter through out his career. Horace Grant was a good jump shooter at PF too. Here's a quote from Cartwright.
"I could always shoot," Cartwright said. "It's funny to me when people said things like he shoots well for a big man. You can either shoot or not, no matter what your size and I had the ability to shoot."
Don't you remember how low his release point was? That was always a shot that has stood out in my mind...
-Bill Laimbeer won two titles. He was a jump shooter too.
-Jack Sikma won a title with the Sonics. He was a jump shooter who was a good passer. He was comparable to Vlade Divac and Andrew Bogut.
-The Bullets won two titles with Elvin Hayes as their Center. He did post up, but his signature move was the turnaround jump shot. That's still a jump shot right?
The other titles were won by Centers since 1976 were Hall of Famers. David Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Chief (I don't think he was a hall of famer), Moses Malone, Elvin Hayes, Bill Walton, and Dave Cowens were all Centers that have won titles in Brad Miller's lifetime.
The only teams that did not have that type of Center who was Hall of fame material and didn't shoot jump shots was the Spurs with Nazr Mohammed (although the have a PF who plays like a C) and the Pistons with Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace is certainly better than Chandler or Dampier. Only Nazr Mohammed had similar skills to those two and won the title. That's right...one Center who sucked at offense, was a decent rebounder, and a decent shotblocker has won the title. His name was Nazr Mohammed.
To me, the best way to get an NBA title is to have a Hall of Fame Center on your team. Well, that isn't going to happen anytime soon with the Kings. The next bet is to try and win it with a highly-skilled Center like the '79 Sonics, the '89-90 Pistons, the '91-93 Bulls, or the '95-'98 Bulls. That's a total of 9 titles that have won the title with a jump-shooting Center.
It's one of the most tried and true strategies in the book and I'm surprised that so many people on this board have failed to recognize it. You take a C who can hit jump shots and put him out on the perimiter. That draws the opposing teams big man away from the hoop and allows the other players to drive or post up much easier. It's called creating space.
This is very important for the Kings because we have so many post players (Bonzi, Artest, SAR, even KT when he has the right matchup). Unfortunately, Brad Miller had a bad series, but what he does for us is very important for our other players. I say we sign a shot-blocking backup C, and trade KT for a better defensive PF. That will give us a better interior presence, yet still allows us to have proper spacing on the court. I don't see the need to clog the lane with a stiff like Dampier or Chandler while getting rid of Miller. Sign someone like Cato, he isn't a whole lot worse then either of those two anyways. IMO, having someone like Chandler or Dampier would creat the following: The benefits we would receive on defense would be far outweighed by the negative effects on our offense.
Oh man, I just realized that post took me forever! Sheesh!
Perimeter implies just that... the perimeter, which is 20 feet and out, and none of those guys, with the admitted exception of Laimbeer, were effective from that far out, nor did they attempt many shots that far out. Having a fourteen-foot turnaround from the angle left does not make one a perimeter player; nor does an awkward windup from the free throw line extended. Comparing Sikma to Divac does not enhance your argument, either, as Divac was not a perimeter jumpshooter.
I'm saying that you actually have to shoot from the perimeter to be considered a perimeter jump shooter. 15-18 feet is not the perimeter.
Shooting 18-foot shots does not make you a perimeter jump shooter; it makes you a mid-range jump shooter.
Overall? No. Why? Defense. Diop/Chandler/Collins/Dampier all kill him in the defense, rebounding, and intangible areas. Brad destroys them offensively.
Brad is an offensive big man that is a medicore rebounder, not a shotblocker, not a presence in the paint (changing, altering shots with regularity) and is not a solid defender even. The aforementioned 4 are all solid-good defensive big men. Collins is an average rebounder though, and not a shotblocker, but makes up for that with his great post-defense and intangibles.
Agreed. I've suggested similar all off-season long.
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walker60
Bench
Ok, well the majority of shots that Brad Miller takes are from the 18 foot range. He makes his living from that range. That's his money shot, 18 feet away, straight in front of the basket. C'mon, Everybody knows that!
He just recently started shooting the occasional 3. So I guess according to your criteria he's not a perimiter jump shooter either?? Sorry I'm not following you here...
Also, I said I wasn't going to count Elvin Hayes when I counted up the nine titles won by big men that could shoot. It was in jest and a play on words because he used the turn-a-round jumper. That's why I used the 'stick out tongue' smiley.
walker60
Bench
Ten percent of Miller's shots (88 of 877) came from beyond the three-point line. That might not be a majority, but it's entirely too much for a center, and enough for a center to be classified as a perimeter jump shooter. None of the other centers you mentioned took half that many.Ok, well the majority of shots that Brad Miller takes are from the 18 foot range. He makes his living from that range. That's his money shot, 18 feet away, straight in front of the basket. C'mon, Everybody knows that!
walker60
Bench
10% in one season!! And you using that to prove that he's a perimeter jump shooter?
Even so, why is that too much for a Center if he cans 39% of them. Him and Mike Bibby shot the exact same percentage. I remember against the Lakers last year he hit one to send it to overtime. All that means is that instead of shooting from 18 feet he is moving a few feet back and drawing the opposing team's Center even further back from the basket. I don't see how that is a bad thing.
All it means is that we are an inverted team. Bonzi and Ron play down on the block, and we have a Center who takes jumpers. Prototypically, your Center is the one posting up, and your wings shoot threes. We just have it switched because those are the players that we have.
I think that the fact that nearly half the three-point attempts that he's taken in his entire career came last season alone, I'd say that's enough to classify him as a perimeter jump shooter, yes.
Because those possession where he camped out at the three-point line were possessions that he wasn't creating contact and drawing fouls, possessions where he wasn't freeing up teammates for shots, possessiosn where he was out of position to get offensive rebounds; let's not pretend that those eighty-eight possessions where he shot the three are the only eighty-eight possessions that he was out there.walker60 said:
Here's the problem with that line of reasoning: the opposing team's center isn't following Miller out to the three-point line; he's staying at home, making life difficult for Miller's teammates.walker60 said:
Midrange jump shooting centers are better than perimeter jump shooting centers because most centers not named Shaquille O'Neal will at least go that far out on defense, helping to open up the lane; no center's going all the way out to the three-point line on defense.
R
Rome
Guest
Ok I think guys like Diop, Chandler, Dampier, Ben Wallace are better than Miller because defense is always first. Miller is only good at offense. He's less than a decent defender and his rebounding is horrible for the minutes he plays.
Diop, Chandler, Dampier, Ben Wallace and the rest of the defensive bigs are great defenders. They rebound, defend in the post, and block shots. They can't put the numbers that Miller puts offensively but they are great in the areas that are the most important. And yes some of those things that they're good at does not show up in the stat sheet. Like the way Chandler played in the playoffs or Diop shutting down Duncan. Those kind of players are the type that a lot of teams want because of their defensive presence.
So we're argueing over 2 different types of players. One which is really good at offense and the others who are really good at defense. As I stated before I think defense always comes first and I would trade Miller to get anyone one of those defensive bigs i mentioned.
Just look at Dallas for an example. They had some of the best offensive players a few years ago but never got anywhere near the finals. They gave up their offensive weapons like Raef LaFrentz, Steve Nash, and Finley to get guys that step it up defensively. And look where they finished. The team that you saw a few years ago looked a lot better on paper than the recent Dallas team yet this team goes to the finals and almost beat Miami.
Diop, Chandler, Dampier, Ben Wallace and the rest of the defensive bigs are great defenders. They rebound, defend in the post, and block shots. They can't put the numbers that Miller puts offensively but they are great in the areas that are the most important. And yes some of those things that they're good at does not show up in the stat sheet. Like the way Chandler played in the playoffs or Diop shutting down Duncan. Those kind of players are the type that a lot of teams want because of their defensive presence.
So we're argueing over 2 different types of players. One which is really good at offense and the others who are really good at defense. As I stated before I think defense always comes first and I would trade Miller to get anyone one of those defensive bigs i mentioned.
Just look at Dallas for an example. They had some of the best offensive players a few years ago but never got anywhere near the finals. They gave up their offensive weapons like Raef LaFrentz, Steve Nash, and Finley to get guys that step it up defensively. And look where they finished. The team that you saw a few years ago looked a lot better on paper than the recent Dallas team yet this team goes to the finals and almost beat Miami.
A
AriesMar27
Guest
a lot of good that did them against the heat.... all of the players you named lost to the heat in the playoffs.... and shaq wasnt even playing all that well.....
so much for that winning formula.... if grandpa shaq and uncle zo can take you out.... damn homie, a dat dude with a jacked up toe and his friend with the jacked up kidney beat you; oh and some guy named dwayne....
im all for signing a defensive back up center and pf though..... or atleast a bigman thats actually big.... bring on kandi(mle) and swift(trade thomas)
so much for that winning formula.... if grandpa shaq and uncle zo can take you out.... damn homie, a dat dude with a jacked up toe and his friend with the jacked up kidney beat you; oh and some guy named dwayne....
im all for signing a defensive back up center and pf though..... or atleast a bigman thats actually big.... bring on kandi(mle) and swift(trade thomas)
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Diop is NOT better than Brad. Nor probably is Dampier. But they can be more effective, especially when its time to quit posing and make a deep playoff run. The genius in Dallas was pairing those two guys together to give them 40+ min of shotblocking/rebounding. Something like 8pts 12rebs 3blks a game together in 40 min. That's an impact center with 2 heads.
walker60
Bench
1) Well if you are bringing in all of the shots in his career into question, then only 4% of his shots have been 3's. That's not enough to make him a perimeter shooter, as defined by you (farther than 18 feet).
2) He wasn't freeing up teamates? He was creating space for them by drawing his man out to guard him, if that isn't freeing up a teammate then I'm not sure what is.
3) Well if the opposing team's center isn't going to guard a 39% 3 point shooter and leave him wide open I don't get how that is a bad thing? I really don't.
Wide open 3's for one of our best 3-point shooters sure does sound good to me!Also, how is it bad if someone can shoot both 3's and mid-rangers? You are making it sound like that is a detriment and that it would be better if Miller could only hit 18-footers instead of being able to hit both 3's and mid-rangers. Having extended range is never a bad thing IMO. And if you just don't want him shooting 3's at all for some reason, he can still rely on his 18-foot jumper.
There were reasons why they lost to the Heat involving their teams and the Heat. Not just those players. One of the many reasons involved Dampier's mishandled pass, and another was Ben Wallace being tired and let things get to him. But it wasn't because of them alone, and those are the only reasons involving players out of those 4, seperately.
For getting bigs for us, I'd rather go for higher options that are attainable, rather than middle options right now... Kandi/Swift would be decent if we didn't have better options, which we do right now - Magloire/Wright/Cato/Etan Thomas. Kandi/Swift are after them.
R
Rome
Guest
Miller is a great shooter but I hate when he passes up wide open shots and turns the ball over.
Im curious to see how Musselman will use Brad this comming season. If his numbers drop even more than last season's im pretty sure he'll be traded just like Peja.
Im curious to see how Musselman will use Brad this comming season. If his numbers drop even more than last season's im pretty sure he'll be traded just like Peja.
It is when you look at those numbers in context: Miller didn't come into the league as a perimeter jump shooter, but he's certainly become one.
No he didn't; nobody came out to guard him that far out. And, quite frankly, only hitting thirty-nine percent of uncontested jump shots isn't all that impressive.walker60 said:
It's a detriment because it speaks to his state of mind on the court. Miller doesn't think like a center and, since he is a center, that's a problem. We need a center who does.walker60 said:
