Hypothetical MIN/SAC trade and a question

[KevinSalvadori]

It sounds like MIN is interested in moving up to try and draft Oladipo even though they presently hold the number 9. Considering he will likely slot around 5-9, we could be a nice match for them using a deal involving our #7 and a few other parts to acquire their #26 as well as AK47, who is considering opting out to get more years at high dollars (which MIN seems reluctant to offer) after a solid first season back from Russia. The Wolves are looking to add bench scoring and could be interested in a guard like Thornton, who is less pricey and younger than Kevin Martin and also perhaps more available than a guy like OJ Mayo. My proposed deal is this:

WOLVES GET: C/PF Chuck Hayes, SG Marcus Thornton, 2013 #7
KINGS GET: SF Andrei Kirilenko, C Greg Stiemsma, 2013 #26

We reunite Adelman with Hayes, who could be a nice role player defensively off the bench for them, similar to where he proved valuable in HOU. We also help MIN stay around the same salary point and add pieces to their roster while retaining $$ to resign Pek, who they covet next to Love. The Kings get a bonafide starting SF with solid defensive skills and a veteran presence this team lacks. We also retain the right to Amnesty Salmons and/or resign Tyreke; should the deal be done before mid-July, we could decline the contract option for Stiemsma and save another 2.7M or so.

My question is: if we seek to agree an extension with AK either before or after the deal, let's say for $34M/4 with an option year for the fourth season, could it be a declining contract in value (like $9.5, 9.1, 8.7, 8.3, etc) or does it have to rise from the $10.22 he'd earn this year? Just checking.

Interesting context: If we do end up adding Roy Rogers, as is rumored, as another assistant to Malone, he and AK played together for CSKA Moscow in 2000-2001, which might be interesting if they had a solid relationship or history. Also, I think AK could be a big hit in the Sac area for multiple reasons, not least of all due to the big Russian/E. European population within Sacramento relative to its size.

Finally, I'd make a push to sign FA PG Jarret Jack (who Malone is familiar with and has a good relationship with) and and re-sign Tyreke to make our team:

C: Cousins/Stiemsma/DRAFTEE
PF: Thompson/Patterson
SF: Kirilenko/Salmons/Outlaw
PG: Jack/Thomas/DRAFTEE
SG: Evans/Fredette

We retain about 15M in expirings after next season with the above lineup, potentially enough to offer DMC an extension, should we choose to, and resign IT/Patterson if funds remain.

Thoughts?

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Kirilenko has a player option, so he can't be traded before July 1. If he opts out, that would obviously prevent a "delayed" deal. Plus, the entire premise of the deal also seems to rest on the idea that Oladipo will be available at #7, which seems unlikely given current draft chatter.

Just doesn't seem like there's much chance of a deal with a framework like this one happening - too many things have to go right for it to even be possible, much less for both teams to agree to it.

 

[KevinSalvadori]

Kirilenko has a player option, so he can't be traded before July 1. If he opts out, that would obviously prevent a "delayed" deal. Plus, the entire premise of the deal also seems to rest on the idea that Oladipo will be available at #7, which seems unlikely given current draft chatter.

Just doesn't seem like there's much chance of a deal with a framework like this one happening - too many things have to go right for it to even be possible, much less for both teams to agree to it.

Even without the picks as part of the deal, if it was just AK+Stiemsma for MT23 and Hayes after JUL 1, couldn't the Kings draft Oladipo in the fleeting instance he is available to trade him to MIN as part of this deal for their pick at 9, 26 or another guy? Pipe dream I know, but drafting Oladipo would also be good insurance while we attempt to re-sign 'Reke. Also, PHX has sounded big on both Len (despite his injury) and Zeller of late, so hey, anything could happen. This of course presumes NOH would draft Burke or McCollum at 6, which I think is wise for them. We'll see.

 

[KingMilz]

Ak47 is injured all the time and hes getting up there with age wich won't help that, while he would be fantastic and I would love to him him I rather keep the #7th pick maybe and get a good young PG. Good trade idea tho props.

 

[KevinSalvadori]

This could be a way for MIN to get around that, considering they have no real depth at C and might package the 9 with one of their guards to NOH or PHX to go after Oladipo. We could help spell that need, considering Oladipo would need a year of development. Metta could also take the place of AK to reunite with Rick.

 

[bajaden]

Even without the picks as part of the deal, if it was just AK+Stiemsma for MT23 and Hayes after JUL 1, couldn't the Kings draft Oladipo in the fleeting instance he is available to trade him to MIN as part of this deal for their pick at 9, 26 or another guy? Pipe dream I know, but drafting Oladipo would also be good insurance while we attempt to re-sign 'Reke. Also, PHX has sounded big on both Len (despite his injury) and Zeller of late, so hey, anything could happen. This of course presumes NOH would draft Burke or McCollum at 6, which I think is wise for them. We'll see.

Since Oladipo is my second favorite player in the draft, I would only hope and pray he would be available when we pick at 7. And the last thing I would do is trade him for an aging player in Kirilenko and a thug center. Kirilenko is likely to opt out of his contract making him an unrestricted freeagent, and therefore untradable. Oladipo would automaticly be the best defensive player on the Kings were we to draft him and eventually be one of the best defensive players in the NBA. Why would you trade that away?

 

[rainmaker]

If you want AK and are open to him playing for us, which I am, the way to get him is to start talking to his agent, get him to opt out, and throw a good size contract at him.

And, get a SF prospect to plug in behind him whom he can mentor as well as step in when he does get injured.

I know one thing, people around here are focusing way too much on getting a guard rather than getting a SF or defensive big to put next to Cuz.

 

[KevinSalvadori]

If you want AK and are open to him playing for us, which I am, the way to get him is to start talking to his agent, get him to opt out, and throw a good size contract at him.

And, get a SF prospect to plug in behind him whom he can mentor as well as step in when he does get injured.

I know one thing, people around here are focusing way too much on getting a guard rather than getting a SF or defensive big to put next to Cuz.

Agreed. I think a defensive big with a SF like AK would do wonders for him, both in taking pressure off and freeing up his ability to play down low more. That makes our 7 all the more intriguing to me. A guy like Len, Gobert, or other could be an ideal add. I'd love to see what our war room thinks of a guy like Nogueira too, who IMO is a big sleeper this year.

 

[Section 101]

If you want AK and are open to him playing for us, which I am, the way to get him is to start talking to his agent, get him to opt out, and throw a good size contract at him.

And, get a SF prospect to plug in behind him whom he can mentor as well as step in when he does get injured.

I know one thing, people around here are focusing way too much on getting a guard rather than getting a SF or defensive big to put next to Cuz.

That would be called tampering.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

get ak47 to opt out, sign him for the midlevel. trade MT for granger and we have the SF position settled draft oladipo for SG

cousins, thompson, granger/ak47, oladipo, reke in the starting 5

 

[rainmaker]

That would be called tampering.

Lol. It's how business is done. You send out feelers, and have people outside of the FO contact agents.

Get out from under your rock. NBA teams are rarely even accused of tampering, let alone punished for it. Recent example is the ATL FO heavily implying D12 and CP3 might come in the material they sent out to current and potential season ticket holders. They advertised it and weren't punished for it, and here you are thinking sending a feeler to AK's agent isn't the type of thing which happens all the time.

Can't believe this is new to you. Let me guess, you also probably think Lebron had zero contact with Miami prior to free agency beginning. You also probably think Hou hasn't made it damn clear to D12 they want him. Many conversations happen before free agency, it just isn't the GM, he of course waits until 12:01 am the morning of, but if you think those calls are out of the blue and players don't already know who's interested, you don't know how the league works.

 

[bajaden]

If you want AK and are open to him playing for us, which I am, the way to get him is to start talking to his agent, get him to opt out, and throw a good size contract at him.

And, get a SF prospect to plug in behind him whom he can mentor as well as step in when he does get injured.

I know one thing, people around here are focusing way too much on getting a guard rather than getting a SF or defensive big to put next to Cuz.

I couldn't agree more. All year long everyone on the fourm bitchs and moans about how we have too many guards, and how we need a good SF or a good defensive PF to put next to Cousins, and now all they want is another damm guard. Hell, why don't we fire Malone and bring in Nellie to coach our great undersized team.

 

[bajaden]

get ak47 to opt out, sign him for the midlevel. trade MT for granger and we have the SF position settled draft oladipo for SG

cousins, thompson, granger/ak47, oladipo, reke in the starting 5

I haven't taken a hard look at the mid-level exception in the new CBA, but in the old one, the mid-level was only for teams that were over the cap. If thats still true, then we aren't eligible for the mid-level exception.

 

[HndsmCelt]

I like the concept, but unless you also trade for a time machine so we can get 2005 AK-47 forget it. The guy has just about reached the end of his shelf life. Now I agree that we need to consolidate some talent and bring in a starting SF who can block shots, defend and does not need the ball.

 

[rainmaker]

I like the concept, but unless you also trade for a time machine so we can get 2005 AK-47 forget it. The guy has just about reached the end of his shelf life. Now I agree that we need to consolidate some talent and bring in a starting SF who can block shots, defend and does not need the ball.

Thing is, we don't need 2005 production. And when we think about changing the culture, AK would be a great locker room presence and glue guy. I know some are acting like he was injured all year and fell off production wise, but he was healthy and played the full year back in Russia, then played 64 games last year. That's not a great number, but it doesn't really worry me either.

Statistically, last year was one of his best in 5+ years. 12.4 PPG which he hasn't averaged since 05-06, on a career high .507% shooting. 5.7 RPG, which he hasn't averaged since again, 05-06. Blocks were really down, 1PG, but he averaged 1.5 SPG which yet again, he hasn't done since 05-06. His defensive win shares was tied with Rubio for highest on the team. One other thing I've mentioned before, while he's not a great 3pt shooter, he's a very good long 2pt spot up shooter, especially in clutch situations, and he's not a guy defenses can simply sag off.

There's always a risk involved, but we could do a lot worse. I wouldn't look at this as getting or attempting to go after a star SF, more like going after a Vlade or Doug type glue guy.

 

[KevinSalvadori]

Thing is, we don't need 2005 production. And when we think about changing the culture, AK would be a great locker room presence and glue guy. I know some are acting like he was injured all year and fell off production wise, but he was healthy and played the full year back in Russia, then played 64 games last year. That's not a great number, but it doesn't really worry me either.

Statistically, last year was one of his best in 5+ years. 12.4 PPG which he hasn't averaged since 05-06, on a career high .507% shooting. 5.7 RPG, which he hasn't averaged since again, 05-06. Blocks were really down, 1PG, but he averaged 1.5 SPG which yet again, he hasn't done since 05-06. His defensive win shares was tied with Rubio for highest on the team. One other thing I've mentioned before, while he's not a great 3pt shooter, he's a very good long 2pt spot up shooter, especially in clutch situations, and he's not a guy defenses can simply sag off.

There's always a risk involved, but we could do a lot worse. I wouldn't look at this as getting or attempting to go after a star SF, more like going after a Vlade or Doug type glue guy.

I agree with the need for a stable, glue guy vice Josh Smith or someone else that might bring flash but may not have some of the intangibles. Think about what a big boon it would be to the defensive transformation of this team to have a guy in the starting lineup like AK. Thing is, I am struggling to think of how we get him here. Most logical is a deal with Hayes and MT for he and Stiemsma, as I mentioned above, to give MIN a stable veteran backup 4/5 and scoring off the bench. This also gives the Wolves scoring for value, but this presumes AK would re-sign and forgo a longer deal on the open market. I can't seem him opting out of 10.22M though, so my logic is he'd opt-in, agree to a deal, and attempt to agree an extension with the new destination team from there.

What I like most about this deal is how it simplifies our depth and rotations. That second unit would be some composite of Patterson, Salmons, Thomas, Fredette, and I would presume a new addition at the 4/5 via the draft. IMO, at 7, presuming Noel, Oladipo, Bennett, McLemore, Burke, and Porter are all off the board I would place Len, McCollum, Zeller, or Adams as BPA, so odds would be good of getting some depth we could use. My vote would be for Len, injuries and all. I feel the upside is that nice. And, we get a nice Russian connection that can help him adjust in AK. Oh what a beautiful world!!!

 

[KevinSalvadori]

I couldn't agree more. All year long everyone on the fourm bitchs and moans about how we have too many guards, and how we need a good SF or a good defensive PF to put next to Cousins, and now all they want is another damm guard. Hell, why don't we fire Malone and bring in Nellie to coach our great undersized team.

Totally agree. Thank you for this. Dealing MT for AK would solve a lot of headaches for us, and adding a true PG within our price range would make this a really complete team. As mentioned above, I think a starting 5 of: Cousins/Thompson/Kirilenko/Jack/Evans with a bench of Len/Patterson/Salmons/Thomas/Fredette could be good for a 10-11 win improvement, and give us something to build on. Plus, that Salmons expiring could turn out huge after next year...

 

[Section 101]

Lol. It's how business is done. You send out feelers, and have people outside of the FO contact agents.

Get out from under your rock. NBA teams are rarely even accused of tampering, let alone punished for it. Recent example is the ATL FO heavily implying D12 and CP3 might come in the material they sent out to current and potential season ticket holders. They advertised it and weren't punished for it, and here you are thinking sending a feeler to AK's agent isn't the type of thing which happens all the time.

Can't believe this is new to you. Let me guess, you also probably think Lebron had zero contact with Miami prior to free agency beginning. You also probably think Hou hasn't made it damn clear to D12 they want him. Many conversations happen before free agency, it just isn't the GM, he of course waits until 12:01 am the morning of, but if you think those calls are out of the blue and players don't already know who's interested, you don't know how the league works.

Other players, but not the organization or coaching staff. Look what happened to Minny. Next time it will be even more draft picks.

Ya Houston made it clear when they were trying to trade for him. Big difference then contacting a FA before the CBA says they can.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I haven't taken a hard look at the mid-level exception in the new CBA, but in the old one, the mid-level was only for teams that were over the cap. If thats still true, then we aren't eligible for the mid-level exception.

Actually, as of now we are eligible for the MLE. The basic rule is that everybody gets the MLE and the Bi-Annual (if they didn't use it the year before) applied to their cap number. If at any time (due to trades, renouncing cap holds, etc.) your total cap holds go under the salary cap, then you lose the MLE/Bi-annual and you don't get it back. But for now we have it.

 

[Section 101]

Actually, as of now we are eligible for the MLE. The basic rule is that everybody gets the MLE and the Bi-Annual (if they didn't use it the year before) applied to their cap number. If at any time (due to trades, renouncing cap holds, etc.) your total cap holds go under the salary cap, then you lose the MLE/Bi-annual and you don't get it back. But for now we have it.

they made changes. I believe teams over the lux tax do not get it now. They get another that that is only a few mil.

Ok here it is.

Starting in 2013-14, the team cannot receive a player in a sign-and-trade if they have used the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception (see question number 25) that season.


23. Other than financial penalties, are there restrictions on taxpaying teams?

In addition to the tax payments described in question number 21, taxpaying teams have the following restrictions. Note that most of these restrictions aren't triggered unless the team would be over the "apron" -- the point $4 million above the tax level -- following a signing or trade.

Teams above the apron cannot use the Bi-Annual exception (see question number 25).
Teams above the apron have a smaller Mid-Level exception (see question number 25). Teams above the apron can offer contracts no longer than three years, while other teams can offer four. The starting salary is also lower (for example, in 2011-12 it is $3 million for teams above the apron, versus $5 million for other teams).
Taxpaying teams can acquire less salary in a simultaneous trade (see question number 82).
Starting in 2013-14, teams cannot receive a player in a sign-and-trade transaction (see question number 89) if their team salary is above the apron at the conclusion of the trade.
Teams above the apron do not have the same protections under the Gilbert Arenas provision (see question number 44). Under the Arenas provision other teams can offer restricted free agents salaries starting at the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception. If a team with the right of first refusal does not have Early Bird rights to the player and is over the apron, it will have only the smaller Taxpayer Mid-Level exception at its disposal, and cannot match an offer for the full Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception.

In addition, taxpaying teams do not receive a distribution from the leaguewide tax fund. However, they do receive a distribution from the escrow fund (see question number 22).

 

[VF21]

It sounds like MIN is interested in moving up to try and draft Oladipo even though they presently hold the number 9. Considering he will likely slot around 5-9, we could be a nice match for them using a deal involving our #7 and a few other parts to acquire their #26 as well as AK47, who is considering opting out to get more years at high dollars (which MIN seems reluctant to offer) after a solid first season back from Russia...

You're assuming that Minn is wiling to gamble that Oladipo will be available at 7. If they're really that interested in him, I suspect they'd aim a little higher than our pick.

 

[VF21]

That would be called tampering.

Yep. Pure and simple.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Thing is, we don't need 2005 production. And when we think about changing the culture, AK would be a great locker room presence and glue guy. I know some are acting like he was injured all year and fell off production wise, but he was healthy and played the full year back in Russia, then played 64 games last year. That's not a great number, but it doesn't really worry me either.

Statistically, last year was one of his best in 5+ years. 12.4 PPG which he hasn't averaged since 05-06, on a career high .507% shooting. 5.7 RPG, which he hasn't averaged since again, 05-06. Blocks were really down, 1PG, but he averaged 1.5 SPG which yet again, he hasn't done since 05-06. His defensive win shares was tied with Rubio for highest on the team. One other thing I've mentioned before, while he's not a great 3pt shooter, he's a very good long 2pt spot up shooter, especially in clutch situations, and he's not a guy defenses can simply sag off.

There's always a risk involved, but we could do a lot worse. I wouldn't look at this as getting or attempting to go after a star SF, more like going after a Vlade or Doug type glue guy.

At this point the big trades we make need to not just bring in vet place holders, but investment players. I will give you the locker room presence, you you make my argument for me me with the numbers. AK's blocks are way down, so what does he bring? Scoreing, defense experience and a big contract. I hate to compare him to John Solmans but once you take shot blocking out of his game and consider his age(32) it becomes a lot harder to sell me on AK 47 as anything BUT a place holder while young talent is groomed.

 

[Section 101]

Lol. It's how business is done. You send out feelers, and have people outside of the FO contact agents.

Get out from under your rock. NBA teams are rarely even accused of tampering, let alone punished for it. Recent example is the ATL FO heavily implying D12 and CP3 might come in the material they sent out to current and potential season ticket holders. They advertised it and weren't punished for it, and here you are thinking sending a feeler to AK's agent isn't the type of thing which happens all the time.

Can't believe this is new to you. Let me guess, you also probably think Lebron had zero contact with Miami prior to free agency beginning. You also probably think Hou hasn't made it damn clear to D12 they want him. Many conversations happen before free agency, it just isn't the GM, he of course waits until 12:01 am the morning of, but if you think those calls are out of the blue and players don't already know who's interested, you don't know how the league works.

It's being tweeted that 3 teams have been fined for tampering. Atlanta is one. I bet the Kings were too for Malone's comment on CP3 looking good in a Kings uniform.