How Would Cousins Game Fit?

[bajaden]

lol all of this talk of Cousins being a head case IS OVERBLOWN. The way this board goes after Cousins reminds me a little of a tacky smear campaign run by politicians. Unless there is concrete proof that this guy is a head case there is NO WAY you pass on a guy as talented as Cousins. If you think a guy like Wall or Turner would be a better pick because theyre more talented then thats legitimate. I think any mention to the FO of Cousins having questionable character will fall on deaf ears.

Alot of this Criticism being made about Cousins fitting with the team can also be made about Favors. Id be absolutely thrilled if we pick Cousins. Ill be really happy if we pick Favors.

Something I forgot to mention in my last post, and you just alluded to it. People are inferring that because Cousins is a post player that it will conflict with Landry or whomever's game. I would like to point out that Favors lives in the post. Thats what he is, at least right now. He does have a jumpshot, as does Cousins, but he seldom used it. Matter of fact, I saw Cousins shoot a jumpshot for more frequently than Favors. But the point is that both players are post players. If one conflicts then the other one does too.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Seems like Cousins vs. Favors may go on LONGER than Rubio vs. Evans unless we draft neither!

 

[Telemachus]

I also like how of all our front court player you singled out Hawes but convininetly ignored our best front court player in Landry who on paper is a terrible fit with Cousins. The team has given up a lot to get Landry. They have been talking him up as the low post presence that they can build around.

I have seen you make this statement several times lately, and I just don't get why you think Landry wouldn't fit in well with Cousins. While Landry was the Kings best low-post player after the trade, he also proved to have a very consistent mid-range jump shot out to about 20 ft. I don't think he would have any trouble playing both low-post or high-post for the Kings depending on the situation. I would also point out that he had no trouble playing along side of Yao Ming in Houston who definitely clogs up the paint.

 

[upinsmoke]

If the Kings select Cousins I feel it would almost guarantee Spencer would be on his way out before opening night.

 

[bajaden]

Seems like Cousins vs. Favors may go on LONGER than Rubio vs. Evans unless we draft neither!

To be honest, I hope we get the second pick in the draft so we can just draft Turner and be done with it. But that will probably turn into a Wall/Turner debate. Oh well, something to pass the time till the draft.

 

[mac]

To be honest, I hope we get the second pick in the draft so we can just draft Turner and be done with it. But that will probably turn into a Wall/Turner debate. Oh well, something to pass the time till the draft.

If we get second there wouldn't be a Wall/Turner debate. We just take whoever wasn't taken first. And if anyone wants to make a fuss about that they're absolutely nuts and can go blame the ping pong balls.

 

[KingGiant49erFan]

Seems like Cousins vs. Favors may go on LONGER than Rubio vs. Evans unless we draft neither!

Yeah and really people this is not what this board should turn into. This year we witnessed one of the best rookie seasons ever and people were still complaining about not drafting Rubio for a large part of the year. That animosity all started from discussions like these where people decide to back a player and then, once having made that decision, ignore all reality and continue to back their player regardless of results. Now, if we draft Cousins and he turns into even 75% of what he's capable of then we have ourselves quite the foundation of a team. Even then at the rate were going people will find ways to belittle it and wish that we had a Rubio-Favors 1-2 instead. The Cousins-Favors debate is a good one, and a more than worthwhile discussion for us. But can we please prefer a player without completely destroying the other, as well as casting acidic comments amongst ourselves in the process? It is certainly possible that both will be good, and just because one is in fact good does not mean in anyway that the other is not.

 

[Prince_XY]

I think this is how it will be comes draft day.

We will get #4, then Petrie will draft Aldrich ahead of whoever is left between Cousins and Favors. That will be the start of another exciting season for the fans posting in this board.

 

[=LarryLegend=]

I think this is how it will be comes draft day.

We will get #4, then Petrie will draft Aldrich ahead of whoever is left between Cousins and Favors. That will be the start of another exciting season for the fans posting in this board.

I beat he picks Monroe at 4 over Favors, Aldrich and Cousins. Let's see how those threads go.

 

[=LarryLegend=]

I hope they show videos of thw workouts again this year of Cousins, Aldrich, Udoh, Monroe, Favors and Davis.

 

[bajaden]

Yeah and really people this is not what this board should turn into. This year we witnessed one of the best rookie seasons ever and people were still complaining about not drafting Rubio for a large part of the year. That animosity all started from discussions like these where people decide to back a player and then, once having made that decision, ignore all reality and continue to back their player regardless of results. Now, if we draft Cousins and he turns into even 75% of what he's capable of then we have ourselves quite the foundation of a team. Even then at the rate were going people will find ways to belittle it and wish that we had a Rubio-Favors 1-2 instead. The Cousins-Favors debate is a good one, and a more than worthwhile discussion for us. But can we please prefer a player without completely destroying the other, as well as casting acidic comments amongst ourselves in the process? It is certainly possible that both will be good, and just because one is in fact good does not mean in anyway that the other is not.

Way too logical, and probably a waste of your breath.

 

[Uncia03]

I beat he picks Monroe at 4 over Favors, Aldrich and Cousins. Let's see how those threads go.

This is really the only outcome that would have me angry after the draft. If Turner/Wall are both off the board and we can choose between Cousins/Favors/Aldrich/Udoh/Whiteside/Monroe and we select Monroe it would be unthinkable.

I would be shocked if that happened, as we already have Hawes and Monroe does not in the least compliment Hawes, but rather duplicates a style of play which I think Petrie is trying to move away from.

 

[bajaden]

I hope they show videos of thw workouts again this year of Cousins, Aldrich, Udoh, Monroe, Favors and Davis.

I'm sure they will. It was interesting last year to watch the lateral movement drill. Hansbrough went right after Griffin. Griffin did really well in the drill so I expected Hansbrough to look clumsy by comparison. Lo and behold he looked great and had a very good time. Then he measured out at an inch taller than everyone expected. Then he surprised everyone with a much better vertical than most expected. And I thought to myself, where is this player that lacks athleticism. Sort of explains why he was as good as he was at North Carolina.

 

[Gary]

Yeah and really people this is not what this board should turn into. This year we witnessed one of the best rookie seasons ever and people were still complaining about not drafting Rubio for a large part of the year. That animosity all started from discussions like these where people decide to back a player and then, once having made that decision, ignore all reality and continue to back their player regardless of results. Now, if we draft Cousins and he turns into even 75% of what he's capable of then we have ourselves quite the foundation of a team. Even then at the rate were going people will find ways to belittle it and wish that we had a Rubio-Favors 1-2 instead. The Cousins-Favors debate is a good one, and a more than worthwhile discussion for us. But can we please prefer a player without completely destroying the other, as well as casting acidic comments amongst ourselves in the process? It is certainly possible that both will be good, and just because one is in fact good does not mean in anyway that the other is not.

To be fair usually the reason Rubio was brought up was someone criticized Evans game then a PRO Evans person would get on and say how Rubio would have done so much better (sarcastic remark).. Just saying.. It was usually the pro Evans people that would bring up Rubio.

 

[Kingster]

First off, I agree that Favors might have the best long range potential. But right now, he's just not as talented as Cousins. And, as far as shotblocking goes, Favors blocked one shot every 13.3 minutes and Cousins blocked one shot every 13.3 minutes. So they were equal at that particular part of the game. I'm not going to argue that Favors isn't a better athlete than Cousins. But doesn't mean that Cousins is a bad athlete. As far as who can play with who, thats just a bunch of nonsense in my opinion. If Cousins is a better center than Hawes, then I don't give a tinkers damm whether Hawes can co-exist on the floor with him. That would be like saying I'm going to pass on Michael Jordan because I don't think he can co-exist with John Salmons..

If you think the player is that good, you take him and work out the rest later. Personally I don't think the Kings can go wrong with either of them as far as talent goes. Cousins would give you more immediate help, but Favors may be the better player down the road. Notice I said maybe. Its not a given.

Now if you hesitate because of Cousins temperment, thats a legitimate issue. Having watched him all year, I think its overblown. Everyone wants to point to the negative articles. But there were just as many articles written about the good things that he did. The charity work that he did. I'm not going to post them. It would take too long and if your too lazy to go do your own research ( not you ) , then proceed on in ignorance.

I do know that much has written about Favors work ethic and dedication. Plus being a good kid. So that part bodes well for him. But his post game isn't as good as Cousins, and he has little outside game to speak of. And yes, Cousins does have a jumpshot. And I think he runs the floor well for a 280 pound player. He has terrific hands. He is a classic version of a lowpost center. Something I thought we all wanted. But now that maybe we'll have a chance at drafting one, suddenly he doesn't fit. Go figure..

I really don't get the talent vs. long range potential thing. Talent is long range potential, and isn't analogous to the stats that you presented. Talent is equivalent to the potential ceiling of a player, not current stats. So if Favors has more talent than Cousins, he has more long range potential than Cousins.

 

[Kingster]

Well, we say that once Tyreke gets a jumpshot he'll be unstoppable because he can bully his way to the rim whenever he wants and hit the J when the the defense packs it in. That doesn't mean that he'll hit 50 a night.

My point is that if your guard has a jumpshot, then big-men who can't spread the floor because they don't have a consistent jump-shot don't hurt your guard's chances of getting to the rim if they get involved in pick-n-roll basketball.

The big man's defender has to come out top and either show hard or switch, and either way leaves the area around the rim unprotected.

So if Tyreke can get that consistent jumpshot, and get better at pick-n-roll basketball then we don't need to worry about having that big man, even if he can't shoot the ball as well as some of our other bigs.

Fair enough. So until Tyreke gets his outside game going he wouldn't be all very compatible with Cousins. Maybe next year, for example, could be rough, unless he can transform himself in one year. An accurate surmation?

 

[Uncia03]

Yeah and really people this is not what this board should turn into. This year we witnessed one of the best rookie seasons ever and people were still complaining about not drafting Rubio for a large part of the year. That animosity all started from discussions like these where people decide to back a player and then, once having made that decision, ignore all reality and continue to back their player regardless of results. Now, if we draft Cousins and he turns into even 75% of what he's capable of then we have ourselves quite the foundation of a team. Even then at the rate were going people will find ways to belittle it and wish that we had a Rubio-Favors 1-2 instead. The Cousins-Favors debate is a good one, and a more than worthwhile discussion for us. But can we please prefer a player without completely destroying the other, as well as casting acidic comments amongst ourselves in the process? It is certainly possible that both will be good, and just because one is in fact good does not mean in anyway that the other is not.

My current preference in terms of bigmen is:

Cousins
Favors
Aldrich/Udoh ( I just can't decide between the two)
Whiteside
.
.
Ed Davis
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Monroe

Now I will argue all day that I think Cousins will help this team more just due to the fact that he's going to be a beast of a Center, and we need that far more than we need another PF. With that said, I like Favors a lot, so if we do end up drafting him, my posts will then change from arguing for Cousins to discussing how Favors can really help this team, and to offer potential trade suggestions that would probably be necessary since we picked up another PF.
The only player who would make me throw my hands up into the air and walk away in disgust would be Monroe. I think he's going to be a good player, but he's a player that I want no-where near my team. Any other big-man I'd just have to sit down and talk about how they can bring their particular skillset to help our Kings team.

When people talk about Favor's athleticism and his potential to be a star player at the PF spot, and how he's a great kid with a work ethic, I can't disagree with any of it, because they are absolutely right.
I watched a number of G. Tech's games this year, and I will admit that watching G. Tech play basketball was as bad as having my teeth pulled. They were horrible to watch, and there wasn't a single game I watched where I actually enjoyed myself.
Some games Favors looked pedestrian and other games he demonstrated his athleticism and showed why he's highly touted.

So though Favors isn't my first big-man choice, he's just a hair behind, as I'd prefer a true Center if the opportunity is there.

 

[Chupacabra]

Seems like Cousins vs. Favors may go on LONGER than Rubio vs. Evans unless we draft neither!

I dont think so. It seems that the people that prefer Cousins over Favors would still be very pleased if we drafted Favors. I know i would.

 

[Uncia03]

Fair enough. So until Tyreke gets his outside game going he wouldn't be all very compatible with Cousins. Maybe next year, for example, could be rough, unless he can transform himself in one year. An accurate surmation?

Tyreke getting a jumpshot which will keep the defense honest will open up both his game as well as the rest of the team's game, regardless if we choose a big or a small in the draft.

I do think it's an accurate statement that as long as he doesn't have a jumpshot it will hurt both his offensive game and the team's overall offensive potential

I think that since Landry/JT/Hawes all have an outside shot it really does help Tyreke keep things open under the basket for him to penetrate. The thing to remember is that both Cousins and Favors are low-post players who don't have as refined a mid-range game as our current bigs. So when it comes to the half-court set, both Cousins and Favors will most likely have the same 'compatibility' issues if we're talking about a clogged paint.

Now, I actually have high expectations that Tyreke will have a decent J coming into next year. And I also believe that both Cousins and Favors can develop a consistent mid-range jumpshot. Both of them are better shooters than say Joakim Noah, Anderson Verajao, Shaq, or Big Ben.

Also don't forget that we can basically negate our bigs lack of outside shooting if we have them come up and set high screens, because that will draw the interior defender away from the rim in the same way that a jump-shooting big would.

So I do agree with your sumation that if Tyreke doesn't have a better jumpshot coming into next year it will be rougher if we bring in an interior post-big. But I think this is true for both Cousins and Favors.

 

[Kingster]

My current preference in terms of bigmen is:

Cousins
Favors
Aldrich/Udoh ( I just can't decide between the two)
Whiteside
.
.
Ed Davis
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Monroe

Now I will argue all day that I think Cousins will help this team more just due to the fact that he's going to be a beast of a Center, and we need that far more than we need another PF. With that said, I like Favors a lot, so if we do end up drafting him, my posts will then change from arguing for Cousins to discussing how Favors can really help this team, and to offer potential trade suggestions that would probably be necessary since we picked up another PF.
The only player who would make me throw my hands up into the air and walk away in disgust would be Monroe. I think he's going to be a good player, but he's a player that I want no-where near my team. Any other big-man I'd just have to sit down and talk about how they can bring their particular skillset to help our Kings team.

When people talk about Favor's athleticism and his potential to be a star player at the PF spot, and how he's a great kid with a work ethic, I can't disagree with any of it, because they are absolutely right.
I watched a number of G. Tech's games this year, and I will admit that watching G. Tech play basketball was as bad as having my teeth pulled. They were horrible to watch, and there wasn't a single game I watched where I actually enjoyed myself.
Some games Favors looked pedestrian and other games he demonstrated his athleticism and showed why he's highly touted.

So though Favors isn't my first big-man choice, he's just a hair behind, as I'd prefer a true Center if the opportunity is there.

As odd as it may sound, those scouts who saw Favors in high school may have a better idea of how good he is than those scouts who just saw him in college. It's kind of hard to be a big man when you don't have a guards who can get you the ball or create space for you to operate.

 

[Kingster]

Tyreke getting a jumpshot which will keep the defense honest will open up both his game as well as the rest of the team's game, regardless if we choose a big or a small in the draft.

I do think it's an accurate statement that as long as he doesn't have a jumpshot it will hurt both his offensive game and the team's overall offensive potential

I think that since Landry/JT/Hawes all have an outside shot it really does help Tyreke keep things open under the basket for him to penetrate. The thing to remember is that both Cousins and Favors are low-post players who don't have as refined a mid-range game as our current bigs. So when it comes to the half-court set, both Cousins and Favors will most likely have the same 'compatibility' issues if we're talking about a clogged paint.

Now, I actually have high expectations that Tyreke will have a decent J coming into next year. And I also believe that both Cousins and Favors can develop a consistent mid-range jumpshot. Both of them are better shooters than say Joakim Noah, Anderson Verajao, Shaq, or Big Ben.

Also don't forget that we can basically negate our bigs lack of outside shooting if we have them come up and set high screens, because that will draw the interior defender away from the rim in the same way that a jump-shooting big would.

So I do agree with your sumation that if Tyreke doesn't have a better jumpshot coming into next year it will be rougher if we bring in an interior post-big. But I think this is true for both Cousins and Favors.

I didn't know that Favors didn't have much of an outside game. So he doesn't have a mid-range jump shot?

 

[Spike]

Scouting a big in high school is tricky, because you're generally the only big guy on the floor, and in the case of these super-rooks, it's usually by a wide margin.

 

[Kingster]

I dont think so. It seems that the people that prefer Cousins over Favors would still be very pleased if we drafted Favors. I know i would.

And as one of the few on this board who isn't that high on Cousins, if the Kings picked him, believe me, I wouldn't start posting in the preseason how didn't look great in the summer league, or he can't stay out of foul trouble, etc., etc. If they pick him, I'd look at him like any other rookie. It takes three, maybe four years to find out what you really have, and whoever they pick is going to have ups and downs. Tyreke was totally abnormal because his consistency for a 20 year old is unheard of in the NBA.

 

[Kingster]

Scouting a big in high school is tricky, because you're generally the only big guy on the floor, and in the case of these super-rooks, it's usually by a wide margin.

It is. It's just that scouting Favors in college was also extremely tricky because of his particular situation at GA.

 

[Telemachus]

As odd as it may sound, those scouts who saw Favors in high school may have a better idea of how good he is than those scouts who just saw him in college. It's kind of hard to be a big man when you don't have a guards who can get you the ball or create space for you to operate.

You may be right. The way his college team played really hurt him this year. It will likely make his team workouts that much more important for him and how GMs view him this draft.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Something I forgot to mention in my last post, and you just alluded to it. People are inferring that because Cousins is a post player that it will conflict with Landry or whomever's game. I would like to point out that Favors lives in the post. Thats what he is, at least right now. He does have a jumpshot, as does Cousins, but he seldom used it. Matter of fact, I saw Cousins shoot a jumpshot for more frequently than Favors. But the point is that both players are post players. If one conflicts then the other one does too.

The only player that we should be worried about this pick fitting in with, is Evans. Everyone else is expendable.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I didn't know that Favors didn't have much of an outside game. So he doesn't have a mid-range jump shot?

At the end of the season he was showing a much better mid range J and solid mechanics, I recall most of his jump shots spotting up though. I don't think he'll be much of a mid range player. His ball handling is suspect, and he isn't really in the Kemp/Stoudemire/McDyess level of athlete, in terms of speed and quickness. I see him more as a David Lee type athlete (straight run and jump athlete, not much spin moves or direction changing), but he's much better defensively than David Lee and he has better potential in the low post than him.

 

[bajaden]

I really don't get the talent vs. long range potential thing. Talent is long range potential, and isn't analogous to the stats that you presented. Talent is equivalent to the potential ceiling of a player, not current stats. So if Favors has more talent than Cousins, he has more long range potential than Cousins.

We seem to be arguing semantics here. I don't consider Athleticism talent. To me having talent means having a certain amount of skill level. So when I refer to talent thats what I'm refering to. Just being a great athlete doesn't make you talented. If your a great athlete and you learn to play the piano, then you've aquired a talent, which has nothing to do with your athleticism, but might be enhanced by it.

So having said that, if a one player has a better post game than another player, then he's more talented than the other player, regardless of athleticism. However, the other player thats more athletic may have more long range potential than the currently more talented player.

I can safely say that as right now, Cousins has more post game talent than Favors does. Cousins is a better rebounder than Favors is. Their shotblocking is about the same. Talent = skill level. Not to be confused with athletic ability. Running the floor fast is a nice physical ability, but in and of itself, its not a skill. Skills have to be learned. The more skills you have at any endeavor, the more talented you are. So thats where I'm coming from.

 

[Widowmaker2k]

We seem to be arguing semantics here. I don't consider Athleticism talent. To me having talent means having a certain amount of skill level. So when I refer to talent thats what I'm refering to. Just being a great athlete doesn't make you talented. If your a great athlete and you learn to play the piano, then you've aquired a talent, which has nothing to do with your athleticism, but might be enhanced by it.

So having said that, if a one player has a better post game than another player, then he's more talented than the other player, regardless of athleticism. However, the other player thats more athletic may have more long range potential than the currently more talented player.

I can safely say that as right now, Cousins has more post game talent than Favors does. Cousins is a better rebounder than Favors is. Their shotblocking is about the same. Talent = skill level. Not to be confused with athletic ability. Running the floor fast is a nice physical ability, but in and of itself, its not a skill. Skills have to be learned. The more skills you have at any endeavor, the more talented you are. So thats where I'm coming from.

Hmm, not to nitpick or cause controversy, but I look at it a little different. To me, talent is something you're born with, skill is something you can learn. For example, I think Tyreke is far more talented than Curry, but Curry is currently more skilled (though, Tyreke's Talent > Curry's Skill). I won't pretend that I watch college basketball, though, so I'm not really sure who's more talented or skilled between Cousins and Favors. Based on the various draft profiles floating around the web, I find Favors to be very intriguing, but I'm totally okay with us getting Cousins. Based on what you've seen, is there any chance Cousins is a legit 7'0"? Not that it makes a huge difference in real life, but that's a decent statistical marker for a center (and seemingly the point where they can get away with just being huge and not necessarily needing jaw dropping athleticism).

 

[Vlade4GM]

I think most people use "skill" to describe acquired attributes that are gained through learning, and "talent" to describe traits that a person is born with and can't really be developed (or at least are very hard to develop) by working at it. Talents, to me, are things like athleticism (which includes coordination and body control), vision, size, height, length, etc.