In light of Stern's Cal Expo Arena proposal, I thought a new thread might be in order to discuss what can (realistically) be done to make the anticipated traffic problem more manageable. I don't think 'solving' the problem is realistic, but surely there are ideas for making the problem more manageable - especially in light of the fact that Kings games would bring something like 6k vehicles in & out specifically for the games.
How to deal with traffic if arena at Cal Expo
- Thread starter jcassio
- Start date
This is pretty general, but I think the only reasonable solution to traffic problems with long-term impact is to replace the need for individual cars and individual parking spaces with public transportation. Even if you expand the freeway and build a massive "arena only" parking structure to handle the increased traffic, the city will continue to grow and you'll eventually be faced with the same problem again, only with even less room to expand the freeway more and even more additional construction costs. It's not that you shouldn't plan for car-traffic increases, just that expanding the freeway and building more parking lots is not enough. You have to also supplement that by expanding lightrail access, increasing the range and efficiency of bus routes, and perhaps even a third supplemental option like a subway system or (in some unique cases) a ferry or train stop. The cities which are successful in handling the bottleneck problems in potentially high-traffic areas have got multiple reliable forms of public transportation.
People who can ride and walk to the arena are not filling up the freeway and local streets, and they aren't filling up parking spaces so that leaves room for the people who do need to drive to get to the arena without excessive hassle. It also makes NBA basketball more affordable for people who don't want to spend some 10 or 15 dollars to park in addition to their ticket price. That's why I don't understand the Maloof brothers insistence on having the same amount of parking spaces as Arco under their control. That's an outdated civic model which just doesn't make sense anymore. I'm sure it benefits their bottom line to have all that parking revenue supplementing ticket prices, but it's just not fair to the city. Giant parking lot arenas off the freeway were popular a couple decades ago, but now city planners are realizing that arenas in downtown areas are best for the city because they bring people where the businesses are -- why build more infrastructure when you could take better advantage of the infrastructure you already have? They also mean less gas is burned driving people back and forth, and less pollution is generated. As formerly rural areas turn into urban and suburban landscapes, we have to be more careful about how me manage land. That's probably why this arena deal is stalling. There are so many more considerations for the city than just the money issue.
People who can ride and walk to the arena are not filling up the freeway and local streets, and they aren't filling up parking spaces so that leaves room for the people who do need to drive to get to the arena without excessive hassle. It also makes NBA basketball more affordable for people who don't want to spend some 10 or 15 dollars to park in addition to their ticket price. That's why I don't understand the Maloof brothers insistence on having the same amount of parking spaces as Arco under their control. That's an outdated civic model which just doesn't make sense anymore. I'm sure it benefits their bottom line to have all that parking revenue supplementing ticket prices, but it's just not fair to the city. Giant parking lot arenas off the freeway were popular a couple decades ago, but now city planners are realizing that arenas in downtown areas are best for the city because they bring people where the businesses are -- why build more infrastructure when you could take better advantage of the infrastructure you already have? They also mean less gas is burned driving people back and forth, and less pollution is generated. As formerly rural areas turn into urban and suburban landscapes, we have to be more careful about how me manage land. That's probably why this arena deal is stalling. There are so many more considerations for the city than just the money issue.
Props to the OP for starting this thread as it is a very important topic to think about. Also, the last 2 posts were very good as well.
Since the Cal Expo news developed I have been joking with friends that if a new arena is indeed built at Cal Expo I will be starting my own cycle rickshaw business. My employees will taxi fans to and from the games using the American River Parkway.
It sounds kind of crazy, but it just might work. Fans could avoid the heavy traffic by parking at Sac State or somewhere else nearby and get to the game via rickshaw. All that is needed is some lighting and security along the parkway after sun down.
Since the Cal Expo news developed I have been joking with friends that if a new arena is indeed built at Cal Expo I will be starting my own cycle rickshaw business. My employees will taxi fans to and from the games using the American River Parkway.
It sounds kind of crazy, but it just might work. Fans could avoid the heavy traffic by parking at Sac State or somewhere else nearby and get to the game via rickshaw. All that is needed is some lighting and security along the parkway after sun down.
I was wondering how the American River Parkway could be used (in an environment-friendly sort of way) to help manage the traffic situation at Cal Expo! I was actually thinking about a Riverboat (taxi) service from Old Sacramento and Discovery Park (to/from Cal Expo), but I would think the parkway is large enough for both of our enterprises!
My problem would be when the drought-mongers drain the river over fears of flooding and we'd have to put wheels on the Riverboats. Your problem would be rickshaws-in-the-rain, but maybe you've already thought of a way to turn that to your advantage (like selling rain gear and pocket-warmers).
My problem would be when the drought-mongers drain the river over fears of flooding and we'd have to put wheels on the Riverboats. Your problem would be rickshaws-in-the-rain, but maybe you've already thought of a way to turn that to your advantage (like selling rain gear and pocket-warmers).
Which would be a huge no-no. We are a day-time society and rely on the danger of darkness to force people to flee to areas of safety such as their homes. 
Lights would encourage continually usage, even when the danger level has upped. There's also the impact on wildlife, and somebody some where will balk at rabid fans encroaching the evening tranquility of the area.
Lights would encourage continually usage, even when the danger level has upped. There's also the impact on wildlife, and somebody some where will balk at rabid fans encroaching the evening tranquility of the area.It strikes me that most NBA fans get to games in cars. That's just the way it is.
One fun part of the parkway at night: Skunks.
Honestly, I don't think you will ever, in a million years, get more than 10 people to ride bikes to an NBA game, especially in this town. Oh, it may happen in New York, but that's about the only city where I think it'd happen.
I can just picture it... Family rides in from Orangevale to see a game, leaves the overtime affair, on bikes, at 10:45. Gets home at midnight, with zero mishaps on the way home. Everyone gets up at 6 am the next morning to get to work and school.
Sure. That'll happen.
And if you carried more than 2 loads of people from, say, 5 miles away on your rickshaw, within 4 months, you'll be the fittest person in town.
In this location, I think the only real answer is busses, either directly to your neighborhood, or to the light rail station near Woodlake. It will be far too expensive to run a light rail spur from Woodlake to Cal Expo. So they will have to widen 80, and improve those offramps... Which they eventually have to do anyway.
One fun part of the parkway at night: Skunks.
Honestly, I don't think you will ever, in a million years, get more than 10 people to ride bikes to an NBA game, especially in this town. Oh, it may happen in New York, but that's about the only city where I think it'd happen.
I can just picture it... Family rides in from Orangevale to see a game, leaves the overtime affair, on bikes, at 10:45. Gets home at midnight, with zero mishaps on the way home. Everyone gets up at 6 am the next morning to get to work and school.
Sure. That'll happen.
And if you carried more than 2 loads of people from, say, 5 miles away on your rickshaw, within 4 months, you'll be the fittest person in town.
In this location, I think the only real answer is busses, either directly to your neighborhood, or to the light rail station near Woodlake. It will be far too expensive to run a light rail spur from Woodlake to Cal Expo. So they will have to widen 80, and improve those offramps... Which they eventually have to do anyway.
You guys may be missing my point with the brilliant rickshaw idea:
First, I have been joking around with friends about the idea. I am not currently pricing pedicabs for my fleet.
Second, I never thought that 10,000 fans would show up to the games via rickshaw - although it is a funny image.
Third, people would use a pedicab if traffic is a really big pain. It does not happen just in NY. They have been used in Seattle for Mariner games - just go and ask the Maloofs.
Last, the OT game and Orangevale family example? Well, that is the whole point. I could have that family to their car and on an open road within 15-20 minutes. That is, they grab a pedicab after the game and reach SacState where their car is parked in about 15-20 minutes and boom they are on the open road before others have left the arena parking lot.
Skunks - well, I am not sure what to do about the skunks.
First, I have been joking around with friends about the idea. I am not currently pricing pedicabs for my fleet.
Second, I never thought that 10,000 fans would show up to the games via rickshaw - although it is a funny image.
Third, people would use a pedicab if traffic is a really big pain. It does not happen just in NY. They have been used in Seattle for Mariner games - just go and ask the Maloofs.
Last, the OT game and Orangevale family example? Well, that is the whole point. I could have that family to their car and on an open road within 15-20 minutes. That is, they grab a pedicab after the game and reach SacState where their car is parked in about 15-20 minutes and boom they are on the open road before others have left the arena parking lot.
Skunks - well, I am not sure what to do about the skunks.
Update on my pedicab business:
I did a time trial. Please keep in mind that I am not a great cyclist and my bicycle is far from a well oiled machine.
Starting out at the SacState Bridge I was able to make it to the front gate of the CalExpo Horse track in about 9 minutes. It was done at a nice comfortable pace and I was able to do 3 laps in 1 hour.
3 trips an hour @ $8 per ride = $24/hour (not too shabby)
Yes, fans will have to pay to get back to their car at the end of the game totaling $16 for the night. However, I am guessing that parking will be $15, so for one more dollar fans can avoid the heavy traffic trying to get out of CalExpo by using the service.
Also, during my ride I saw zero skunks, but did see 2 very beautiful deer.
In all seriousness, it is kind of a crazy idea. However, I find alternative forms of transportation interesting. More than that though, if a new arena is built at Cal Expo I think that it would be pretty cool to bring together two of the gems of Sactown: The Kings and the American River Parkway.
I did a time trial. Please keep in mind that I am not a great cyclist and my bicycle is far from a well oiled machine.
Starting out at the SacState Bridge I was able to make it to the front gate of the CalExpo Horse track in about 9 minutes. It was done at a nice comfortable pace and I was able to do 3 laps in 1 hour.
3 trips an hour @ $8 per ride = $24/hour (not too shabby)
Yes, fans will have to pay to get back to their car at the end of the game totaling $16 for the night. However, I am guessing that parking will be $15, so for one more dollar fans can avoid the heavy traffic trying to get out of CalExpo by using the service.
Also, during my ride I saw zero skunks, but did see 2 very beautiful deer.
In all seriousness, it is kind of a crazy idea. However, I find alternative forms of transportation interesting. More than that though, if a new arena is built at Cal Expo I think that it would be pretty cool to bring together two of the gems of Sactown: The Kings and the American River Parkway.
I don't see it as such a crazy idea; it's just a different way of thinking, and you might just be a visionary. It could end up being a pretty small owner/operator business, or it could be a whole bunch bigger - depending on how well you competed with traffic & parking. Skunks are not a big issue; in many years of cycling along the Parkway, I only had one Skunk episode. Perhaps lighting would be an issue for some potential customers. Another possible issue is whether the authorities would have any safety concerns with rickshaws dominating the width of the bike trail between Cal Expo and Sac State. Depending on PR, you could be seen as a Green Business providing a valuable public service, or as an opportunist creating a safety problem in our public spaces.
I'm gonna drive my american made V8 car to whereever the heck the games are, howevertheheck long it takes to get in and out. Just gonna have to suck it up and try to get there first so I can park.
Ever drive to a Niners game? Holy crap once and only once for me thanks... but if that can work, anything can work.
Ever drive to a Niners game? Holy crap once and only once for me thanks... but if that can work, anything can work.
I used the Oct 9th preseason game to check how well lightrail would work for me. Looks pretty good
Start: 5:46p
End: 6:27p
Duration: 40 min.
Transfers: 1
Fare: $2.25
Walk (miles):0.32
Your trip has 1 transfer and will take 40 minute. Depart 5:46p from stop ZINFANDEL LIGHT RAIL
on route 507 GOLDLINE Train IB DOWNTOWN. Arrive 6:10p at stop 29TH STREET LIGHT RAIL Transfer 6:13p at stop 30TH ST & Q ST to route 067 FRANKLIN TO ARDEN FAIR. Arrive 6:27p at final destination stop RESPONSE RD & EXPOSITION BLVD.
Origin: 1600 EXPOSITION BLVD SACRAMENTO 95815
Destination:
10635 FOLSOM BLVD, RANCHO CORDOVA, 95670
Request: Departure of 9:30p on 10-09-2007
Valid: M-F service in effect from 09-02-2007 to 01-05-2008
Start: 9:26p
End: 10:06p
Duration: 39 min.
Transfers: 1
Fare: $2.25
Walk (miles):0.39
Your trip has 1 transfer and will take 39 minute. Depart 9:26p from stop RESPONSE RD & CHALLENGE RD on route 067 FRANKLIN TO FLORIN MALL Arrive 9:40p at stop 29TH ST & R ST. Transfer 9:43p at stop 29TH STREET LIGHT RAIL to route 507 GOLD LINE Train OB FOLSOM. Arrive 10:06p at final destination stop ZINFANDEL LIGHT RAIL
Start: 5:46p
End: 6:27p
Duration: 40 min.
Transfers: 1
Fare: $2.25
Walk (miles):0.32
Your trip has 1 transfer and will take 40 minute. Depart 5:46p from stop ZINFANDEL LIGHT RAIL
on route 507 GOLDLINE Train IB DOWNTOWN. Arrive 6:10p at stop 29TH STREET LIGHT RAIL Transfer 6:13p at stop 30TH ST & Q ST to route 067 FRANKLIN TO ARDEN FAIR. Arrive 6:27p at final destination stop RESPONSE RD & EXPOSITION BLVD.
Origin: 1600 EXPOSITION BLVD SACRAMENTO 95815
Destination:
10635 FOLSOM BLVD, RANCHO CORDOVA, 95670
Request: Departure of 9:30p on 10-09-2007
Valid: M-F service in effect from 09-02-2007 to 01-05-2008
Start: 9:26p
End: 10:06p
Duration: 39 min.
Transfers: 1
Fare: $2.25
Walk (miles):0.39
Your trip has 1 transfer and will take 39 minute. Depart 9:26p from stop RESPONSE RD & CHALLENGE RD on route 067 FRANKLIN TO FLORIN MALL Arrive 9:40p at stop 29TH ST & R ST. Transfer 9:43p at stop 29TH STREET LIGHT RAIL to route 507 GOLD LINE Train OB FOLSOM. Arrive 10:06p at final destination stop ZINFANDEL LIGHT RAIL
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^^^that's not too bad. You also did it with only existing services. I imagine that if the arena @ Cal Expo did come to fruition, RT would have expanded services on game nights. Many cities do this.
For example, once you get off the light rail at a nearby station there would dedicated RT buses waiting that would take you directly to the front door of the arena with no stops in between. It makes sense for riders and it makes sense for RT.
For example, once you get off the light rail at a nearby station there would dedicated RT buses waiting that would take you directly to the front door of the arena with no stops in between. It makes sense for riders and it makes sense for RT.
She wouldn't be in south sac. "067 FRANKLIN TO FLORIN MALL" is just the name of the bus she needs to take to get back to 29th and R.
If I understand correctly, Prophetess would be coming on the gold line route to 29th street, and taking the buss from there to Cal expo. Her way back would be to take the westbound 67 back to 29th .
I'm not familiar with that light rail stop. It looks like a busy transfer stop, that would mean lighting and security at the least.
If this comes to fruition, ideally you'd stop at Power Inn, or 65th, and then catch a shuttle or bus to Cal Expo. At the moment, there doesn't seem to be any bus that goes to Arden Mall from there.
If I understand correctly, Prophetess would be coming on the gold line route to 29th street, and taking the buss from there to Cal expo. Her way back would be to take the westbound 67 back to 29th .
I'm not familiar with that light rail stop. It looks like a busy transfer stop, that would mean lighting and security at the least.
If this comes to fruition, ideally you'd stop at Power Inn, or 65th, and then catch a shuttle or bus to Cal Expo. At the moment, there doesn't seem to be any bus that goes to Arden Mall from there.
Don't all the traffic issues at Cal Expo, and they are very valid issues, add support to the downtown arena idea? Light rail, buses and Amtrak are already in place to support that location. Or is the downtown problem the amount of parking spaces the Maloofs want vs. what the developer is willing to go along with? And the Maloofs wanting all the revenue from downtown parking? Hmmm. Seems that could be a easier negotiation than a more unlikely (borderline impossible) situation at CalExpo?
CruzDude, I'd love to see the arena downtown, but that's an unlikely location for one very huge reason. The city still has no idea how it's going to come up with the money for infrastructre. It's going to be awhile before anything substantial gets built in the railyards. Maybe years. A replacement is needed for Arco soon. Before gum and duct tape won't work anymore.
Ahhh Ha! But to some extent won't we have the same problem at Cal Expo as it is State owned? Then, what if the EIR is bad or prohibitively expensive?
I see the downtown problem what with a city unable to get itself into the modern era and become a model for how to improve the downtown. Which is sad 'cause that's where an arena should be that benefits everyone.
Cal Expo may get a new arena but where are the benefits for fans and local businesses? And the transportation situation, or total lack thereof at Cal Expo. How can that be ignored? i just looked at a map and there is only one way to get to Cal Expo and thats from Capitol Expressway!! Can't you just see that traffic jam on game nights (or not if folks just say the heck with it, the traffic is too bad!!). Or, hey, one could always drive up or down Howe Ave, that would be fun at 6pm or so for 7 pm games, eh?
The Maloofs are business people and smart ones at that. I wonder how long they can afford to wait and watch this soap opera play out when their plans have been ignored and ridiculed. What happens in a year or two when nothing gets done? Thats the scary part.
I see the downtown problem what with a city unable to get itself into the modern era and become a model for how to improve the downtown. Which is sad 'cause that's where an arena should be that benefits everyone.
Cal Expo may get a new arena but where are the benefits for fans and local businesses? And the transportation situation, or total lack thereof at Cal Expo. How can that be ignored? i just looked at a map and there is only one way to get to Cal Expo and thats from Capitol Expressway!! Can't you just see that traffic jam on game nights (or not if folks just say the heck with it, the traffic is too bad!!). Or, hey, one could always drive up or down Howe Ave, that would be fun at 6pm or so for 7 pm games, eh?
The Maloofs are business people and smart ones at that. I wonder how long they can afford to wait and watch this soap opera play out when their plans have been ignored and ridiculed. What happens in a year or two when nothing gets done? Thats the scary part.
CruzDude, I'd love to see the arena downtown, but that's an unlikely location for one very huge reason. The city still has no idea how it's going to come up with the money for infrastructre. It's going to be awhile before anything substantial gets built in the railyards. Maybe years. A replacement is needed for Arco soon. Before gum and duct tape won't work anymore.
You don't have to convince me traffic is a big issue with the Cal Expo site. I lived in the general area for about 25 years and worked downtown.
As to the EIR, honestly, in that area I can't imagine an EIR being the determining factor. We are talking about an already developed site in an already heavily developed urban area. As an already developed site, I don't think a full-blown EIS would be required, which can be the real expensive sort of review, with more deal-killing possibilities.
The only reason I can imagine for them considering Cal Expo is they must believe that's where they can envision putting together a financially feasible plan and one that has a realistic expectation of happening within the hoped for time frame.
The city has been working on the railyards for decades. Development of anything there still isn't going to happen until the city comes up with the $500 million for infrastructure. They're not even close, as far as I know. (They let MSE and the NBA think the money was already committed. When MSE and the NBA learned otherwise from Thomas, was when the Maloofs backed off of supporting Q&R at all.)
As to the EIR, honestly, in that area I can't imagine an EIR being the determining factor. We are talking about an already developed site in an already heavily developed urban area. As an already developed site, I don't think a full-blown EIS would be required, which can be the real expensive sort of review, with more deal-killing possibilities.
The only reason I can imagine for them considering Cal Expo is they must believe that's where they can envision putting together a financially feasible plan and one that has a realistic expectation of happening within the hoped for time frame.
The city has been working on the railyards for decades. Development of anything there still isn't going to happen until the city comes up with the $500 million for infrastructure. They're not even close, as far as I know. (They let MSE and the NBA think the money was already committed. When MSE and the NBA learned otherwise from Thomas, was when the Maloofs backed off of supporting Q&R at all.)