How do the Kings play to strengths and still compete in a changed NBA?
- Thread starter KingsFanGER
- Start date
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Look, if this is really the personnel with which the Kings are going to open the season, it's not going to matter much what Joerger does. He'll get a ton of blame for a lousy season, and it will be undeserved. This team desperately needs an All Star talent in the back court who can score at will on his own. Cousins and "the others" isn't going to cut it.
I guess that depends on what you define as lousy.
Given that Rondo was a net negative statistically when he was on the court last year I don't see his departure hurting the team at all. And Afflalo is an upgrade at SG. Barnes, Tolliver, Temple Labissiere and Papagiannis are likely upgrades over Butler, Acy (debatable here but likely a better fit), Anderson, Dukan and Moreland.
I'm expecting a trade that brings in backcourt help but even if that doesn't happen and all the Kings do is sign Isaiah Cousins and/or a cheap veteran PG it seems like this is an improved roster to me.
The Kings won 33 games in a chaotic season under Karl where players fought with their coach, their coach demoralized many of the players and overall the team quit on the season, especially down the stretch where they just rested everyone.
Seems to me that eclipsing 33 wins should be a pretty attainable goal. Enough to make the playoffs? Possibly, especially if the defense is much improved. Joerger is a much better coach in terms of relating to his players and getting them to buy in than Karl is, but his true strength is being an X's and O's strategist. I think it's feasible that the Kings take a step forward this year - possibly a big one.
I'm bullish on the Jazz this year but looking at their assumed starting lineup:
Gobert
Favors
Hayward
Johnson or Hood
Exum
it's hard for me to say that's significantly better than
Cousins
Cauley-Stein
Gay
Afflalo
Collison
I wouldn't be surprised to see either team (or even both) make the playoffs as a low seed next year if Joerger can really improve the defense significantly.
You forgot George Hill as their starting PG and that team is better than ours in all positions outside of the center position (where they have the best rim-protector in the league).
biltalent
Starter
Assuming we get an adequate back up PG and stay healthy we should be flirting with .500 this season.
Last year we won 33 while playing terrible. We were 22nd in defensive rating and 15th in offensive rating.
The way Joerger speaks and with the roster we now have I think the big improvent will come on the defensive end.
Collison is a better defender than Rondo.
Afflalo is a better defender than Belinelli and Collison against twos.
Rudy is still Rudy (barring a trade), but motivated Rudy under Malone/Joerger is a better defender than Rudy under Karl.
Willie be better than his rookie self and whoever we played as a small ball 4 last year.
Cousins is still good. Slowing the pace down will also help him.
And I havent even started talking about the additions of Matt Barnes, Garret Temple and Anthony Tolliver who are all solid defenders. We are a tough veteran team that will beat you down until we win. Our coach is a defensive minded coach that knows how to get players to buy in and who is also has underrated as a offensive coach.
Yes, we missed out on our main targets in Lee and Anderson but we had a good backup plan. Its not even July 7th and we are set at SG, PF and C while still needing to figure out the back up PG position and if we move forward with Rudy. But only one trade could solve our issues.
So I think the only thing we have to do to have a successful season is to add a good backup PG in the offseason and then to keep the offense average and become an average to good defensive team. Show pride in defending. Trust eachother. Win and leave the drama behind. Then go into the next season as a up and coming team and a truck load of money. The future is bright.
Last year we won 33 while playing terrible. We were 22nd in defensive rating and 15th in offensive rating.
The way Joerger speaks and with the roster we now have I think the big improvent will come on the defensive end.
Collison is a better defender than Rondo.
Afflalo is a better defender than Belinelli and Collison against twos.
Rudy is still Rudy (barring a trade), but motivated Rudy under Malone/Joerger is a better defender than Rudy under Karl.
Willie be better than his rookie self and whoever we played as a small ball 4 last year.
Cousins is still good. Slowing the pace down will also help him.
And I havent even started talking about the additions of Matt Barnes, Garret Temple and Anthony Tolliver who are all solid defenders. We are a tough veteran team that will beat you down until we win. Our coach is a defensive minded coach that knows how to get players to buy in and who is also has underrated as a offensive coach.
Yes, we missed out on our main targets in Lee and Anderson but we had a good backup plan. Its not even July 7th and we are set at SG, PF and C while still needing to figure out the back up PG position and if we move forward with Rudy. But only one trade could solve our issues.
So I think the only thing we have to do to have a successful season is to add a good backup PG in the offseason and then to keep the offense average and become an average to good defensive team. Show pride in defending. Trust eachother. Win and leave the drama behind. Then go into the next season as a up and coming team and a truck load of money. The future is bright.
Showtime
Starter
Way to succeed in today's NBA if you're the Kings:
1. Acquire talent. This may seem simple, but the draft history over the past decade shows otherwise. Curry, Thompson, Barnes, Lillard, and more have been passed over for assets that proved to not even be serviceable in the league.
2. Keep talent you manage to acquire. If you draft guys like IT, don't trade them for peanuts to watch them become All Stars elsewhere (shoutout to Whiteside. Imagine a Boogie/Hassan frontline).
3. Be a stable organization. Even if the wins aren't coming, the worst thing you can be is unstable. The drama the past few seasons has resulted in our franchise being the Chernobyl of the NBA. The Kings are a no-fly-zone for top talent in the league, which wasn't the case when they had a stable FO, stable coaching staff, and a winning product.
1. Acquire talent. This may seem simple, but the draft history over the past decade shows otherwise. Curry, Thompson, Barnes, Lillard, and more have been passed over for assets that proved to not even be serviceable in the league.
2. Keep talent you manage to acquire. If you draft guys like IT, don't trade them for peanuts to watch them become All Stars elsewhere (shoutout to Whiteside. Imagine a Boogie/Hassan frontline).
3. Be a stable organization. Even if the wins aren't coming, the worst thing you can be is unstable. The drama the past few seasons has resulted in our franchise being the Chernobyl of the NBA. The Kings are a no-fly-zone for top talent in the league, which wasn't the case when they had a stable FO, stable coaching staff, and a winning product.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Funky,
Even 34 wins would be lousy
; anything below .500 would be lousy, as it would be highly unlikely they would get the 8th slot in the playoffs with that number. Not sure about Utah. They seem similar to the Kings, in that they lack they necessary firepower in the back court. Exum is a large question mark because of his outside shooting.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Funky,
Even 34 wins would be lousy
Joe Johnson could really help them back there, and Diaw is obviously a saavier option than Booker up front. Add in Exum...
Utah was a 40 wins team last year without Exum who was supposed to be their starting PG, with Alec Burks playing only 30 games and with both Gobert and Favors missing over 20 games.
They added to that team George Hill, Joe Johnson and Boris Diaw and still have 10 million to spend (all they really lost is Trevor Booker and Burke).
Right now they can start:
Hill-Hood-Hayward-Favors-Gobert which is a great starting 5 filled with quality 2-way players.
And a 2nd unit of:
Exum-Burks-Johnson-Lyles-Diaw (you can put Whitney instead of one of these guys if you want), that's a crazy good bench and if they can add another good FA or a player via trade they field a team that can be very good.
They added to that team George Hill, Joe Johnson and Boris Diaw and still have 10 million to spend (all they really lost is Trevor Booker and Burke).
Right now they can start:
Hill-Hood-Hayward-Favors-Gobert which is a great starting 5 filled with quality 2-way players.
And a 2nd unit of:
Exum-Burks-Johnson-Lyles-Diaw (you can put Whitney instead of one of these guys if you want), that's a crazy good bench and if they can add another good FA or a player via trade they field a team that can be very good.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
the best? you forget about that one dude who plays down in South Beach?
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
I think it's safe to crown the Kings the Cleveland Browns of the NBA until proven otherwise with the Sixers a close second.
King Baller
All-Star
I'm going to have to see this team play together extensively before I pass too many judgements. One of the key questions I have is how does Joerger blend this team together to play defense? How are the defensive matchups going to look say against a team like the Jazz?
If the Kings can play good defense as a team that changes everything. What we saw last season was horrible defense and I hope those days are over.
If the Kings can play good defense as a team that changes everything. What we saw last season was horrible defense and I hope those days are over.
I feel like you are severely overestimating at least half of Utah's talent. #GrassIsGreener
twslam07
All-Star
Forgive me if I am misinterpreting your post, but I still don't see you saying that the Kings are better than the Jazz which is what my post is arguing against. We can argue about little things like maybe Temple being better than Exum, but if you don't disagree with the premise, we don't have much else to discuss...
Good points...but I just got to disagree on the Thompson < Bogut. Thompson was a defensive beast and a rebounding machine. They don't win without him.
Gay and Hayward.....even? Afflalo and Hood.... Even? DC and Hill....even. I have a feeling that Sac is going to become a defensive unit like Utah. Would be a good series.
I don't know whether or not the Kings are better than the Jazz; this team doesn't really resemble the last Kings team that played the Jazz. However, comma, the last Kings team we saw was one that most of us agree was not very good, and they took two out of three from the Jazz.
So, I neither agree nor disagree with the premise, but I probably trend towards disagreeing with it. It is entirely possible that I am way less impressed with Utah's talent than you are.
I was just grading them going into that series, not by what they actually did in the series. Otherwise Irving and Jefferson would have been better as well.
twslam07
All-Star
It's hard to be right (or wrong) without taking a stance...
But to your point about us beating them 2 out of 3 times and that being some sort of significant evidence that helps prove your point, I would simply point to Cavs & Warriors. Cavs lost both times to the Warriors in the regular season, but are NBA champions.
The main problem with an assertion like that is sample size. What do they say? On any given night... It's more about what a team does over the course of a season considering the sample size is much larger.
You're also lacking detail in your callout of us beating the Jazz 2 out of 3 times. Across all 3 games, we were almost at full strength (Cauley-Stein didn't play the very first game) while the Jazz didn't have Gobert & Exum the first game or Favors, Burks, & Exum in the second game. The game they won, they had everyone healthy (except Burks & Exum) with Mack added to the starting lineup. Now you take that team from last year and add G. Hill to the roster to help solidify their PG dilemma (which was their biggest weakness), add a healthy Burks, & add a healthy Exum and you have a pretty darn good team.
Context is everything...
I wasn't trying to be right or wrong. My "stance" is that you overrate Utah, IMO. Full stop. If you insist on labels, and making a debate of it, then say I have a tepid disagreement with your premise. I probably don't think that Hayward, Hood, Hill, Lyles, Burks or Exum are as good as you do.
My general opinion of the Jazz is that they are an under-talented team, outside of Favors and Gobert, who are fairly well coached, and get a lot of mileage out of the fact that they're all pulling in the same direction, and that they all buy into the system that they've put into place. Maybe, according to your criteria, that means that they're 'better' than us; I'm not as convinced. I don't have a particularly high opinion of our guys, either, but I do think that we've all been pulling in different directions, and playing below our ability, maybe even significantly so, ever since Malone was fired, and I am cautiously optimistic about seeing that change under Joerger.
Basically, if (I know) our guys buy into what Joerger is selling, I think that the talent between our teams is equal. In such situations, it usually comes down to which team has the best player. And that's us.
My general opinion of the Jazz is that they are an under-talented team, outside of Favors and Gobert, who are fairly well coached, and get a lot of mileage out of the fact that they're all pulling in the same direction, and that they all buy into the system that they've put into place. Maybe, according to your criteria, that means that they're 'better' than us; I'm not as convinced. I don't have a particularly high opinion of our guys, either, but I do think that we've all been pulling in different directions, and playing below our ability, maybe even significantly so, ever since Malone was fired, and I am cautiously optimistic about seeing that change under Joerger.
Basically, if (I know) our guys buy into what Joerger is selling, I think that the talent between our teams is equal. In such situations, it usually comes down to which team has the best player. And that's us.
King Baller
All-Star
Seems like the Jazz had a lot of injured players last season.
But to answer the question OP poses I think for the Kings to be successful this coming season the Kings will need to grind it out on the defensive end.
Matt Barnes is the kind of guy you don't want to face because he is always grinding on you defensively.
That needs to be the theme for every player, every game all season long. No easy hoops, no leisurely bringing the ball up the court and setting up the offense you want. Make the other teams hate playing the Kings
But to answer the question OP poses I think for the Kings to be successful this coming season the Kings will need to grind it out on the defensive end.
Matt Barnes is the kind of guy you don't want to face because he is always grinding on you defensively.
That needs to be the theme for every player, every game all season long. No easy hoops, no leisurely bringing the ball up the court and setting up the offense you want. Make the other teams hate playing the Kings
roasthawg
Starter
I'll take Collison over hill and Casspi over Johnson. Wcs is our only real wild card... Would be amazing to see him make an unexpectedly big leap.
kingjatt
Starter
How do we compete in todays NBA? Well for starters we can stop with going small for too long as we don't really have the personel that would excel with that type of style.
With big men getting alot of nice contracts this summer I think the league may be shifting more towards going big again as the warriors have pretty much cornered the market on small/junk ball. No one is going to beat the Warriors at their own game anymore.
So as mentioned earlier we can start by having length and mobility at every position, something alot of us have been clamoring for for years on this board and it looks like we finally might have that fixed this offseason, and be able to defend with size because guards/wings are just too skilled these days that a small guy switch is basically an easy bucket/foul.
Also the switching defense phenomenon is going to elminate alot of the ball movement action as most of that is created off of backdoor screens/pick and rolls so you need big guys or star guards/wings who can go get you a bucket. (we happen to have 2 guys who excel at that in Cousins and Gay) also see what lebron and kyrie did in the finals vs GS switch defense they excuted the dreaded iso plays to perfection and became champions.
I think Joerger/Vlade want to be able to play small in spurts but mostly would like to stay big and defend. Cuz and Gay can handle scoring with the some contribution Darren/Afflalo/Casspi etc.
With all that said regardless of who we acquire(unless we fleece someone) we wont be a playoff team this year and im ok with that. we tried the rush build into an 8th seed and failed miserablely so now we are taking a more logical and slow approach. Joerger is great at developing guys so let him do his thing for a few years. If cuz wants to be a part of it great, if not then trade him by the deadline because we do not want a durant 2.0 situation.
With big men getting alot of nice contracts this summer I think the league may be shifting more towards going big again as the warriors have pretty much cornered the market on small/junk ball. No one is going to beat the Warriors at their own game anymore.
So as mentioned earlier we can start by having length and mobility at every position, something alot of us have been clamoring for for years on this board and it looks like we finally might have that fixed this offseason, and be able to defend with size because guards/wings are just too skilled these days that a small guy switch is basically an easy bucket/foul.
Also the switching defense phenomenon is going to elminate alot of the ball movement action as most of that is created off of backdoor screens/pick and rolls so you need big guys or star guards/wings who can go get you a bucket. (we happen to have 2 guys who excel at that in Cousins and Gay) also see what lebron and kyrie did in the finals vs GS switch defense they excuted the dreaded iso plays to perfection and became champions.
I think Joerger/Vlade want to be able to play small in spurts but mostly would like to stay big and defend. Cuz and Gay can handle scoring with the some contribution Darren/Afflalo/Casspi etc.
With all that said regardless of who we acquire(unless we fleece someone) we wont be a playoff team this year and im ok with that. we tried the rush build into an 8th seed and failed miserablely so now we are taking a more logical and slow approach. Joerger is great at developing guys so let him do his thing for a few years. If cuz wants to be a part of it great, if not then trade him by the deadline because we do not want a durant 2.0 situation.
KingsCitizen
Starter
The team right now is a Warriors anti-thesis.
The wings are there to defend and not shoot.
And we have the best offensive post-up big in the league right now.
On defense, we could go the Spurs way, where the perimeter defenders funnels down the opposing wings down the shot blocker (i.e Duncan and in Kings case, WCS).
On offense, it's either Rudy or DMC right now as initiators.
I could see this happening on most nights unless we get a offensively potent PG (maybe Dragic? via trade?).
The wings are there to defend and not shoot.
And we have the best offensive post-up big in the league right now.
On defense, we could go the Spurs way, where the perimeter defenders funnels down the opposing wings down the shot blocker (i.e Duncan and in Kings case, WCS).
On offense, it's either Rudy or DMC right now as initiators.
I could see this happening on most nights unless we get a offensively potent PG (maybe Dragic? via trade?).
Kingston Jamaica
Bench
Comparison with Utah is nice, because Utah is similarly a "no name" team like the Kings (except DMC). Rudy probably isn't the name name he was, but he still is a very good player. Looking at that comparison between Hayward - Gay and J. Johnson - Casspi is right about even. Both Rudy and Casspi played less minutes than their counterparts, but were just about even in scoring. Casspi scored 0.4 points less per game than J. Johnson, but played over 6 minutes less per game. While Hayward was their no. 1 scorer, Rudy was the second option. J. Johnson was a starter in the Nets while Casspi was not the go to guy even in the second lineup. So let's not be too hasty with these comparisons. I mean, the Kings have scorers if you want to use them.
To me it is much more important to have a super tough defensive lineup out there at any given time. I also don't see any reason why the Kings can't make a 0.500 record this year. The 33 win record does not tell everything. You have probably forgotten already that in the end of the season many of the top Kings players were not even traveling with the team anymore. There were other periods when the effort and determination was not there. Therefore, in my opinion, 0.500 is clearly achievable.
To me it is much more important to have a super tough defensive lineup out there at any given time. I also don't see any reason why the Kings can't make a 0.500 record this year. The 33 win record does not tell everything. You have probably forgotten already that in the end of the season many of the top Kings players were not even traveling with the team anymore. There were other periods when the effort and determination was not there. Therefore, in my opinion, 0.500 is clearly achievable.
King Baller
All-Star
Agreed and .500 should be the initial goal. I hope the New Kings hang their hat on Defense and make Golden One Arena an unhappy place for opposing teams. The winning needs to start at home and the away games need to be competitive with some wins also.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Poll
- Yahoo! Sports - NBA - Sacramento Kings News
- Kings News Links
