Houston offers picks + Lowry for Tyreke and #5

cuad said:
Troll! This is the most ridiculous post I've ever seen! You should be banned!!!!!!!! I'm in love with Andrei Kirilenko!!!!!
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I'm not a troll, and I agree with his post. He was simply giving you the facts. Go to 82 games or Synergy.com and see for yourself. Its not a criticism of any of those players, its just an observation of how the team chemistry took a hit when they were on the floor together. So I think the point is, that Thornton would be better coming off the bench and Tyreke would be better at the SG position. Doesn't mean they couldn't ever play together, but that its not the ideal situation for the team.
 
bajaden said:
I'm not a troll, and I agree with his post. He was simply giving you the facts. Go to 82 games or Synergy.com and see for yourself. Its not a criticism of any of those players, its just an observation of how the team chemistry took a hit when they were on the floor together. So I think the point is, that Thornton would be better coming off the bench and Tyreke would be better at the SG position. Doesn't mean they couldn't ever play together, but that its not the ideal situation for the team.
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Oh my god, dude, where were you in this thread? http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/sho...cquire-a-guard&p=910971&viewfull=1#post910971 "Giving me the facts?" Please! :rolleyes:
 
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bajaden said:
I'm assuming you either got that info form Synergy.com or 82 games. Both give basicly the same results. And I happen to agree with those results. I don't think Tyreke and Thornton, on the floor together is the best pairing. I think Tyreke would simply thrive at the SG position, and I've thought so for a long time. Tyreke as player lives in the moment more than just about anyone else on the team. Thats a good thing, and at times its a bad thing. The key for a coach is utilizing it to the teams advantage.

What do I mean by that? Well for instance, a PG should be seeing the game unfold two plays ahead. Everything he does, should be predicated on what happens in the next play or two. Tyreke is the type of player that reacts in the moment. When the ball touches his hands, ideally, he should be able to shoot, drive, or drive and pass, and do so without concience. At the SG position, he would be able to do that. At the PG position, his responsiblity is increased beyond his own game. And I believe that without that burden, you'd be looking at an all star.

Lets just give Tyreke some more time. He's been mishandled from the get go. Some of his lack of progress is his fault, but the majority of it is the orginizations fault. From what I've read, Tyreke is happy that the Kings finally have an offseason program. Not only is Tyreke working out in Sacramento, I keep seeing Cuz at some of the player workouts. To my mind, thats the beginning of a family of players. Everyone finally becoming of one mind. So I'm going to wait and see, with caution, what the results are.
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Neither actually, it's called basketballvalue.com But the results are quite similar on both websites.

Anyway, I absolutely agree about Tyreke. He's not a PG. It's no coincidence that every lineup with IT at PG is far more effective than Tyreke at PG. That's not knocking Tyreke at all either! He's simply not the type of playmaker that can keep his teammates involved while getting his own scoring going. It's the same reason Harden, Manu, Wade, LeBron don't play the PG position, even though they would physically decimate any PG in the NBA. You take that responsibility of him having to initiate the offense, and I think we see a much improved offense and a much improved Tyreke. Contrary to popular belief, he was hell of a lot better playing off the ball than he was at the PG position.

It's also no coincidence that our offense and defense improved drastically with an actual SF on the floor and Reke or Thornton at the SG. Even as terrible as Outlaw and Salmons were this past season, we still became an extremely competitive team. The defense still wasn't fantastic, but it was something we could live with and win games with considering how nice our offense became with IT-Reke/Thornton-SF-JT-Cousins. I like Thornton and his mentality, but I would not hesitate to move him if the right deal comes along. Same with Reke
 
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The_Jamal said:
Indeed.
Honestly, our team is a pretty easy fix, looking at these numbers. We became a competitive team when 2 of the following happened:
1. A real SF was in the game
2. Reke and Thornton were not playing together at the PG/SG position. And it's not just that lineup either. Every lineup where those 2 were in the game with Cousins, our offense took a ridiculous dive into the ground

We'll be fine next season if those 2 things happen. Adding a MKG and perhaps a Marcus Camby off the bench will do wonders for this team. I also think having T-will for a full year will make a significant impact on our defense and overall offensive cohesion
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Hey, folks, please help me remember this post. It coincides with my impressions of last season. It lead to my pushing on here to find an opportunity for Thornton to play for another team. Still feel that way. But I know it would be a big step since he is our top scorer.

But in the meantine play some real SFs and don't play Thornton and Tyreke together.

However, this is a subject for another day and another thread. Help me remember.
 
bajaden said:
I'm not a troll, and I agree with his post. He was simply giving you the facts. Go to 82 games or Synergy.com and see for yourself. Its not a criticism of any of those players, its just an observation of how the team chemistry took a hit when they were on the floor together. So I think the point is, that Thornton would be better coming off the bench and Tyreke would be better at the SG position. Doesn't mean they couldn't ever play together, but that its not the ideal situation for the team.
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You need more sarcasm in your diet down there.
 
What a dumb*** rumor this was. Glad Amick shot it down.

Another example however, of Jason Jones being asleep at the wheel. Needed Amick to shoot this down as he's contacted multiple sources it appears. Ridiculous how Amick who's been a national writer for a few years has considerably more connections around Sac than Jones who's only job is to cover the Kings. It's not anyone from the Bee offering insight into this, but Amick to the rescue again.

Jones did tell us Petrie is still working with Reke, which is nice to hear, but takes no more work than being in the gym with your press pass. When this rumor came out today, Amick has sources to call. Jones apparently didn't. Thank god for Amick.
 
The_Jamal said:
Neither actually, it's called basketballvalue.com But the results are quite similar on both websites.

Anyway, I absolutely agree about Tyreke. He's not a PG. It's no coincidence that every lineup with IT at PG is far more effective than Tyreke at PG. That's not knocking Tyreke at all either! He's simply not the type of playmaker that can keep his teammates involved while getting his own scoring going. It's the same reason Harden, Manu, Wade, LeBron don't play the PG position, even though they would physically decimate any PG in the NBA. You take that responsibility of him having to initiate the offense, and I think we see a much improved offense and a much improved Tyreke. Contrary to popular belief, he was hell of a lot better playing off the ball than he was at the PG position.

It's also no coincidence that our offense and defense improved drastically with an actual SF on the floor and Reke or Thornton at the SG. Even as terrible as Outlaw and Salmons were this past season, we still became an extremely competitive team. The defense still wasn't fantastic, but it was something we could live with and win games with considering how nice our offense became with IT-Reke/Thornton-SF-JT-Cousins. I like Thornton and his mentality, but I would not hesitate to move him if the right deal comes along. Same with Reke
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I am going to demonsrate a rather large flaw in your argument with nothing more than red highlighting.

All Tyreke Evans + Marcus Thornton backcourt lineups with at least 50 offensive possessions last season, with Off RTng:
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/JT/Cousins 348possessions 99.43 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/Hickson/Cousins 131possessions 96.18 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/Hayes/Cousins 122possessions 93.44 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/Hickson/Hayes122possessions 111.48 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/JT/Hayes 102possessions 90.20 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/Hickson/JT 62possessions 106.45 OffRtng

I think the red highlights kind of speak for themsleves. We ****ing tied a colossal anvil around the ankles of that backcourt pairing. That's all of them by the way. Not ONE major Reke/Thornton lineup did not include maybe the worst player in the NBA for the first half of the season at SF, normally along with an offensively incompetent PF, or a guy we'd release before the year was out.

Now I don't want to take the tiem to list them, but spin that around, and of the 10 different 50+ possession linueps IT was a part of you know how many of them had Salmons at SF ? 1. Uno (that freakishly successful run while Reke was out for a couple of games). 1 other had Hayes at PF. None had Hickson.
 
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Bricklayer said:
I am going to demonsrate a rather large flaw in your argument with nothing more than red highlighting.

All Tyreke Evans + Marcus Thornton backcourt lineups with at least 50 offensive possessions last season, with Off RTng:
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/JT/Cousins 348possessions 99.43 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/Hickson/Cousins 131possessions 96.18 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/Hayes/Cousins 122possessions 93.44 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/Hickson/Hayes122possessions 111.48 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/JT/Hayes 102possessions 90.20 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/Hickson/JT 62possessions 106.45 OffRtng

I think the red highlights kind of speak for themsleves. We ****ing tied a colossal anvil around the ankles of that backcourt pairing. That's all of them by the way. Not ONE major Reke/Thornton lineup did not include maybe the worst player in the NBA for the first half of the season at SF, normally along with an offensively incompetent PF, or a guy we'd release before the year was out.

Now I don't want to take the tiem to list them, but spin that around, and of the 10 different 50+ possession linueps IT was a part of you know how many of them had Salmons at SF ? 1. Uno (that freakishly successful run while Reke was out for a couple of games). 1 other had Hayes at PF. None had Hickson.
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Yjou question/challenge the front half of his posting. I agree totally that second half has more merit and it agrees with my on-the-floor impressions from last year. Tell me how you win with Evans/Thornton in the starting lineup.
 
Bricklayer said:
I am going to demonsrate a rather large flaw in your argument with nothing more than red highlighting.

All Tyreke Evans + Marcus Thornton backcourt lineups with at least 50 offensive possessions last season, with Off RTng:
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/JT/Cousins 348possessions 99.43 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/Hickson/Cousins 131possessions 96.18 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/Hayes/Cousins 122possessions 93.44 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/Hickson/Hayes122possessions 111.48 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/JT/Hayes 102possessions 90.20 OffRtng
Reke/Thornton/Salmons/Hickson/JT 62possessions 106.45 OffRtng

I think the red highlights kind of speak for themsleves. We ****ing tied a colossal anvil around the ankles of that backcourt pairing. That's all of them by the way. Not ONE major Reke/Thornton lineup did not include maybe the worst player in the NBA for the first half of the season at SF, normally along with an offensively incompetent PF, or a guy we'd release before the year was out.

Now I don't want to take the tiem to list them, but spin that around, and of the 10 different 50+ possession linueps IT was a part of you know how many of them had Salmons at SF ? 1. Uno (that freakishly successful run while Reke was out for a couple of games). 1 other had Hayes at PF. None had Hickson.
Click to expand...

My flawed argument? YOU are the one who likes to spin stats for your own incredibly biased opinion.

For 1, 50 offensive possessions isn't near enough of a sample size to determine anything about how an offensive lineup runs. In fact, the only lineups I would feel comfortable making any sort of assertions on would be:
IT-MT-Reke-JT-Demarcus- 601 offensive possessions
Reke-MT-Salmons-JT-Demarcus- 348 possessions
IT-MT-Tyreke-Donte-Demarcus- 221 possessions

and none of them were successful. The top one was great offensively, atrocious defensively. The 2nd team was atrocious offensively, and below average defensively (but liveable if that offensive group actually work) and the third was surprisingly most balanced, but still atrocious defensively.

One. Hickson was hurt and then fell out favor with Smart by the time IT got a majority of his playing time. He was always a terrible fit for us anyway, so it's not surprising our offense sucked with him on the floor with the starters. Two. the Reke-MT-Salmons-Hickson-Hayes lineup was one of the few that actually produced positive results for us this season (with a respectable sample size). That team scored 136 points and allowed 132 points. Not fantastic, but certainly not the atrocious lineup everyone claimed it was when Hickson/Hayes were on the court. Three. The Reke-Thornton-Salmons-Hickson-JT lineup was another one of our more successful lineups on the year(small sample size, but we'll ignore that for now). They scored 66 points and allowed 61. How is that possible you may ask? We had two cooks in the kitchen on offense (Reke, MT) a real SF in the game (no matter how bad he was) and 2 bigs that did not demand the ball as Cousins does.

This isn't an anti-Reke tyrade. Or an Anti-Thornton tyrade. I'm simply stating facts about what happened with our team last year and 2 things stuck out. When a real SF was in the game, we got instantly better defensively. I should perhaps clarify my original statement from Reke/Thornton playing together sucks offensively to this: When we have 2 cooks in the kitchen as opposed to all 3 (of Reke/Cousins/MT) our offense skyrockets. And I mean it's not even in the same ball-park. So, using logic, we can assume that if we add a defensive minded SF who doesn't demand the ball and is better than Outlaw/Salmons, our defense will drastically improve. The same is also true on offense: If we send MT to the bench and start Reke at the 2 with IT, our offense becomes hell of a lot better.

* FYI the only 3 successful lineups with 100 or more possessions had Outlaw or Salmons at SF and IT at PG. So let's give credit when it's due eh?
 
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Peter_Gibbons said:
Basically they are telling us our #5 is only worth their #14 + #16. And Tyreke is only equal to Lowry.

That's insulting.
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Or, you can think of it this way. If we were to trade the #5, the likely ballpark of the return would be #14 and Lowry. I don't think Houston could go much higher to acquire the #5, and I don't think we could accept much lower. So whether or not one would actually DO this trade, that's about the value of the #5 pick.

On top of that, let's throw in Tyreke for the #16. That shows you how ridiculous this "rumor" is.

Looks like Givony is in full defense mode on his "intel", not only countering Amick's denials with a tweet that says essentially "what, do you think they'd confirm it?" and now using the exact same rumor in his latest extended mock draft at #5. You know what? Givony got bad intel. And then he and his beat-ESPN-to-it-then-whine-when-they-don't-credit-you act (he's got a point to be made, but it's an old and tired point and it's leaning towards martyrdom at this stage) tweeted it out without thinking critically about it. And then he has to pretend that his intel isn't bad, because his entire business is intel. For instance, "Sacramento reportedly hop[es] to find a better alternative and has stalled on pulling the trigger" (link). Yeah, right. There was no trigger to be pulled. Sorry, Givony, laugh's on you this time.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
Or, you can think of it this way. If we were to trade the #5, the likely ballpark of the return would be #14 and Lowry. I don't think Houston could go much higher to acquire the #5, and I don't think we could accept much lower. So whether or not one would actually DO this trade, that's about the value of the #5 pick.

On top of that, let's throw in Tyreke for the #16. That shows you how ridiculous this "rumor" is.

Looks like Givony is in full defense mode on his "intel", not only countering Amick's denials with a tweet that says essentially "what, do you think they'd confirm it?" and now using the exact same rumor in his latest extended mock draft at #5. You know what? Givony got bad intel. And then he and his beat-ESPN-to-it-then-whine-when-they-don't-credit-you act (he's got a point to be made, but it's an old and tired point and it's leaning towards martyrdom at this stage) tweeted it out without thinking critically about it. And then he has to pretend that his intel isn't bad, because his entire business is intel. For instance, "Sacramento reportedly hop[es] to find a better alternative and has stalled on pulling the trigger" (link). Yeah, right. There was no trigger to be pulled. Sorry, Givony, laugh's on you this time.
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From that link
Trading the pick to a team like Houston (or someone else) as part of a deal involving Kyle Lowry, Tyreke Evans and the #14 and #16 picks appears to be a very real option according to numerous NBA executives, but Sacramento reportedly hoping to find a better alternative and has stalled on pulling the trigger.
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Somehow I doubt that. We have the most sought after piece in these rumors in the 5th pick. Why would we also inlcude Reke in order to move it? Hou or whoever else needs to meet our asking price since we hold what they want. We don't need to include Reke to meet their asking price. At least I'd hope that's our FO's stance, although you never know.
 
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Kingster said:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ckets-push-for-dwight-howard-impact-big-board

Here's the latest rumor. Sacto is out of it entirely. Portland gets 3 #1s.

The more info that comes out on this, the less likely I think it is the Kings get involved. This appears to be a not so secret "negotiation" and now Sacramento seems like they are out of it.
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That doesn't guarantee Drummond, since we could still threaten to take him at 5, and he's the piece Orl is after. Bleacherreport really isn't a good source.
 
I don't think Houston would make such a ridiculous offer. We'd probably never listen to anything they had to say again if they did.
 
rainmaker said:
That doesn't guarantee Drummond, since we could still threaten to take him at 5, and he's the piece Orl is after. Bleacherreport really isn't a good source.
Click to expand...

I just don't think the Kings taking Drummond is credible, and I don't think other teams do either. Seems like the more info came out on him, the more he's dropped. I'll give you something on the other hand though: Let's say this Houston-Orlando-Portland deal finally gets to the point where it is pretty much nailed down. Well, if some team other than Orlando wants Drummond, they could always deal with the Kings directly and leave this deal in ashes for Houston and Orlando. But you have to ask yourself: Would that other team pay more than those 3 #1s that Portland is supposedly getting? I highly doubt it.
 
Mike0476 said:
Last year before the season was set to begin, Givony reported that Tyreke was fat.

Amick is the man.
Click to expand...

You're right, he did.

Amick, on the other hand, reported Tristan Thompson going at #4, which no sane person would ever have done unless they knew they were right. Amick 2, Givony 0.
 
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