Horford Opting out?

SLAB said:
So... no Kawhi for them?
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Max seems a little too much. He would be making $164 mil over 4 years. Not sure I'm buying that from Baja.

If they offer him $34 mil or less in the first year, they could still offer Kawhi the max (with Beverley & Zubac's cap holds in place) if they move
Gallo for cap space.
 
Kingster said:
I'd rather have D'Andre Jordan than either Horford or Vucevic. He's younger than Horford (He'll be 31 in July) and a better defender and rebounder and shot blocker than Vucevic (and he'll cost much less). Give me Jordan at center and a solid physical backup and I'll be happy with the center position.
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Well, your partly right, and partly wrong. Your right about Jordan being cheaper than Vucevic, but you make the point of Jordan being younger than Horford ( who by the way just gave a verbal agreement to the Clippers to sign a four year max deal) but omitted that he was older by two years than Vucevic. Your also wrong about him being a better rebounder than Vucevic. Last season Jordan averaged 11.4 rebounds, while Vucevic averaged 12.0 rebounds.

Both players averaged 1.1 blocks. While Jordan averaged 3.0 assists, Vucevic averaged 3.8 assists. I might add that Jordan had a defensive rating last season of 109, the same as Willie Cauley-Stein, while Vucevic had a defensive rating of 103, which is considerably better. If you throw in that Vucevic scored 20 ppg and shot 36.4% from the three, while Jordan scored 10.9 ppg while shooting 00.0% from the three, you might come to the conclusion that Vucevic is a better basketball player at this point in time.

With that said, I wouldn't mind if we signed Jordan to a 2 year deal. But I would certainly prefer Vucevic, who I think would make us an automatic playoff team.
 
bajaden said:
Well, I saw it on twitter and just went back to confirm it somewhere else, and I can't, so my bad, I should have confirmed it before posting it. Broke one of my own rules. I have to assume that it was a phoney rumor. My humble apologies...
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No worries! It was unprecedented that a FA would verbalize that before 6/30. I feel like that would get some teams in trouble.

And it was also odd that it said "max". Horford has been rumored around $100-$115 mil over 4 years. A max would have been $164 mil over 4 years. That would be absolutely nuts! :)
 
bajaden said:
Well, your partly right, and partly wrong. Your right about Jordan being cheaper than Vucevic, but you make the point of Jordan being younger than Horford ( who by the way just gave a verbal agreement to the Clippers to sign a four year max deal) but omitted that he was older by two years than Vucevic. Your also wrong about him being a better rebounder than Vucevic. Last season Jordan averaged 11.4 rebounds, while Vucevic averaged 12.0 rebounds.

Both players averaged 1.1 blocks. While Jordan averaged 3.0 assists, Vucevic averaged 3.8 assists. I might add that Jordan had a defensive rating last season of 109, the same as Willie Cauley-Stein, while Vucevic had a defensive rating of 103, which is considerably better. If you throw in that Vucevic scored 20 ppg and shot 36.4% from the three, while Jordan scored 10.9 ppg while shooting 00.0% from the three, you might come to the conclusion that Vucevic is a better basketball player at this point in time.

With that said, I wouldn't mind if we signed Jordan to a 2 year deal. But I would certainly prefer Vucevic, who I think would make us an automatic playoff team.
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I was wrong because I omitted that Jordan is older than Vucevic by two years? Yikes. I'm going to have to include all the omitted things about Jordan and Vucevik to be right?:eek: How about if I not omit this fact: Two years in the youth or prime of your NBA career is different than two years at the end of the prime of your NBA career. Two years between 27 and 29 is nothing. Two years between 24-26 is nothing. Two years between 31 and 33 is everything, especially when the 33 year old reportedly wants a long term contract. Maybe crazy-a$$ Houston Rockets with their Chris Paul deal is ok with big $$$ for players on the downhill slide. Not me.

I'll grant you the rebound edge between Jordan and Vucevic, but I'd rather have Jordan than Vucevic on D. As far as the defensive rating is concerned, I give it no value whatsoever because it obviously hasn't watched WCS play!
 
bajaden said:
Well, your partly right, and partly wrong. Your right about Jordan being cheaper than Vucevic, but you make the point of Jordan being younger than Horford ( who by the way just gave a verbal agreement to the Clippers to sign a four year max deal) but omitted that he was older by two years than Vucevic. Your also wrong about him being a better rebounder than Vucevic. Last season Jordan averaged 11.4 rebounds, while Vucevic averaged 12.0 rebounds.

Both players averaged 1.1 blocks. While Jordan averaged 3.0 assists, Vucevic averaged 3.8 assists. I might add that Jordan had a defensive rating last season of 109, the same as Willie Cauley-Stein, while Vucevic had a defensive rating of 103, which is considerably better. If you throw in that Vucevic scored 20 ppg and shot 36.4% from the three, while Jordan scored 10.9 ppg while shooting 00.0% from the three, you might come to the conclusion that Vucevic is a better basketball player at this point in time.

With that said, I wouldn't mind if we signed Jordan to a 2 year deal. But I would certainly prefer Vucevic, who I think would make us an automatic playoff team.
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Defensive ratings depend heavily on the team you're on. I watched Vuc in the playoffs. He's not a stopper by any means and he got somewhat exposed on both ends in the playoffs. If it's a talent competition Vuc wins in a landslide but fit is key with where the Kings are at currently.
 
SacTownKid said:
Defensive ratings depend heavily on the team you're on. I watched Vuc in the playoffs. He's not a stopper by any means and he got somewhat exposed on both ends in the playoffs. If it's a talent competition Vuc wins in a landslide but fit is key with where the Kings are at currently.
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if Kings sign Vucevic, he will become 4th or 5th option on this team when its all said and done. He won't be producing 20ppg averages on this team and that is fine as long as he is willing to sacrifice his stats for the good of the team and be compensated financially for it.

Its similar to Vlade and Christie in the golden years. You can go to them and get them to score 20 in a game without a problem but they were more than happy to sacrifice their games and score 10 each but allowed the likes of Webber, Peja, Bibby and Bobby to put up their numbers.

Its a great thing to have because when the injuries strike (and they will at some point) you have players capable of stepping up in the times of need by just as happy to take the back seat when required to do so.

We know that Vucevic fits this team in the half court pretty well. He can space the floor for Fox and Bagley but he can also get his stuff done in the post and mid range. A skilled big man. Defensively, he will protect the paint. Sure he will not be a Dikembe Matumbo in his prime but he will be an upgrade on what we had with this team in recent times. He will be going for the blocked shots and he will be going for the rebounds. He is also someone who is a pretty underrated passer. Is he worth the max ($35m) on the Kings? Probably not but that is what it would take to get him here.

Point I am trying to make, on this team he will not be asked to carry the team like he did in Orlando. He will become less relied on offensively and would expect him to do certain things defensively that he is capable of doing. His play off struggles are not unexpected considering what he was expected to do from the Magic. He won't have those expectations here. Fox, Hield, Bagley and even possibly one or both of Barnes and Bogdan will be relied on more offensively than Vucevic. Doesn't mean that he is less valued, just that there is only one ball that has to be shared around 5 players on the court at the time.

Still easily the best fit for us in terms of skills and age. If we are expected just to run and gun at all costs, that is not realistic as 50% of the time in the game you need to get into the half court offense which makes Vucevic pretty valuable for both Bagley and Fox.
 
SacTownKid said:
Defensive ratings depend heavily on the team you're on. I watched Vuc in the playoffs. He's not a stopper by any means and he got somewhat exposed on both ends in the playoffs. If it's a talent competition Vuc wins in a landslide but fit is key with where the Kings are at currently.
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Well the only stat I can quote is the defensive rating, and to be honest, I don't put a lot of value on it either. I'm not about to say the Vucevic is a defensive stopper, but he's not a bad defender in the post. I might add that Jordan isn't the player he used to be. He's useless out on the perimeter. Here's the difference between the two, and this is just my humble opinion. If we sign Jordan, we may make the playoffs, but if we sign Vucevic, I think the playoffs are almost a guarantee. He's a dammed good player.

Now if we want someone that can defend on the perimeter, then resign Willie. I also think we would make the playoffs if we were to sign Harris, and let Bagley play the center position. But Jordan, or Dedmon, I'm not so sure. To be honest, I'd take Dedmon over Jordan. He's a poor man's Vucevic and a better post defender than Vucevic.
 
ParniValjak said:
if Kings sign Vucevic, he will become 4th or 5th option on this team when its all said and done. He won't be producing 20ppg averages on this team and that is fine as long as he is willing to sacrifice his stats for the good of the team and be compensated financially for it.

Its similar to Vlade and Christie in the golden years. You can go to them and get them to score 20 in a game without a problem but they were more than happy to sacrifice their games and score 10 each but allowed the likes of Webber, Peja, Bibby and Bobby to put up their numbers.

Its a great thing to have because when the injuries strike (and they will at some point) you have players capable of stepping up in the times of need by just as happy to take the back seat when required to do so.

We know that Vucevic fits this team in the half court pretty well. He can space the floor for Fox and Bagley but he can also get his stuff done in the post and mid range. A skilled big man. Defensively, he will protect the paint. Sure he will not be a Dikembe Matumbo in his prime but he will be an upgrade on what we had with this team in recent times. He will be going for the blocked shots and he will be going for the rebounds. He is also someone who is a pretty underrated passer. Is he worth the max ($35m) on the Kings? Probably not but that is what it would take to get him here.

Point I am trying to make, on this team he will not be asked to carry the team like he did in Orlando. He will become less relied on offensively and would expect him to do certain things defensively that he is capable of doing. His play off struggles are not unexpected considering what he was expected to do from the Magic. He won't have those expectations here. Fox, Hield, Bagley and even possibly one or both of Barnes and Bogdan will be relied on more offensively than Vucevic. Doesn't mean that he is less valued, just that there is only one ball that has to be shared around 5 players on the court at the time.

Still easily the best fit for us in terms of skills and age. If we are expected just to run and gun at all costs, that is not realistic as 50% of the time in the game you need to get into the half court offense which makes Vucevic pretty valuable for both Bagley and Fox.
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That's kind of what Orlando did with him in the playoffs. It wasn't pretty. Mostly offensive players are never really different when that change is placed upon them. If him not being in that role is closer to what you saw in the playoffs, efficiency aside, then that isn't a player worth more than 10-14 million a year IMO. Size is always going to cost you and skill could cost you the max but if that skill is not being used to even half of it's potential it's value has to be questioned because it's those types of players that through misuse become cap anchors.
 
bajaden said:
Well the only stat I can quote is the defensive rating, and to be honest, I don't put a lot of value on it either. I'm not about to say the Vucevic is a defensive stopper, but he's not a bad defender in the post. I might add that Jordan isn't the player he used to be. He's useless out on the perimeter. Here's the difference between the two, and this is just my humble opinion. If we sign Jordan, we may make the playoffs, but if we sign Vucevic, I think the playoffs are almost a guarantee. He's a dammed good player.

Now if we want someone that can defend on the perimeter, then resign Willie. I also think we would make the playoffs if we were to sign Harris, and let Bagley play the center position. But Jordan, or Dedmon, I'm not so sure. To be honest, I'd take Dedmon over Jordan. He's a poor man's Vucevic and a better post defender than Vucevic.
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I would hope that the Kings are a playoff contender just bringing back what they have. The next question is though, what happens when you get to the playoffs? Look at Jordans history in the playoffs. His totals, his impact, and his efficiency with what he does well has historically swelled. If the team didn't have Bagley and Giles as core centerpieces of the frontcourt my opinion on Vuc being worth a max deal would undoubtedly change, but they do. I think the Kings have 20 and 10 in the frontcourt as it is. They don't have shotblocking, enough rebounding, and intangibles like brick wall level screening in pick and roll. Dedmon could be a good option and probably why he's one of the names already being rumored from months back. I'm also assuming the true monetary values of the other 2 compared to Vuc are different. Vuc according to his production potential should be worth more. But if the Kings get a 10 and 10 Vucevic what is that realistically worth?
 
SacTownKid said:
That's kind of what Orlando did with him in the playoffs. It wasn't pretty. Mostly offensive players are never really different when that change is placed upon them. If him not being in that role is closer to what you saw in the playoffs, efficiency aside, then that isn't a player worth more than 10-14 million a year IMO. Size is always going to cost you and skill could cost you the max but if that skill is not being used to even half of it's potential it's value has to be questioned because it's those types of players that through misuse become cap anchors.
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We agree to disagree. Vucevic at 15ppg, 10-12rpg, 4apg, 1spg, 1bpg is a player who is worth $20-25m on a contending team. If you are looking for him to be 20/12 player he was last season with Magic, then one or more of Fox, Bagley and Buddy need to take a back seat and we all know that is not happening and you are not going to have a very good team if that is the case anyway.

Its like Vlade. With the Lakers he had a season where he was their leading scorer at 16ppg, pulled down 10rpg, had a couple of blocks and a few assists per game as well. He could score when needed. When he came to the Kings, the numbers took a dive but he was an all-star and a much better player.

Kings need a player who you can go to if the need arises and they can get you a bucket (injuries in a season do happen. Just take a look how the team was not as good when Bagley got injured).

To get a FA to sign, especially in Sacramento you need to overpay. That is not an opinion. That is a known fact. Even when Vlade signed with the Kings everyone thought that was HUGE money for a C at that age. It was well worth the investment.
 
ParniValjak said:
We agree to disagree. Vucevic at 15ppg, 10-12rpg, 4apg, 1spg, 1bpg is a player who is worth $20-25m on a contending team. If you are looking for him to be 20/12 player he was last season with Magic, then one or more of Fox, Bagley and Buddy need to take a back seat and we all know that is not happening and you are not going to have a very good team if that is the case anyway.

Its like Vlade. With the Lakers he had a season where he was their leading scorer at 16ppg, pulled down 10rpg, had a couple of blocks and a few assists per game as well. He could score when needed. When he came to the Kings, the numbers took a dive but he was an all-star and a much better player.

Kings need a player who you can go to if the need arises and they can get you a bucket (injuries in a season do happen. Just take a look how the team was not as good when Bagley got injured).

To get a FA to sign, especially in Sacramento you need to overpay. That is not an opinion. That is a known fact. Even when Vlade signed with the Kings everyone thought that was HUGE money for a C at that age. It was well worth the investment.
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I understand what you're saying, but for the Kings I'm not sure it's worth it. I guess it would depend on Barnes coming back. Offensive ability from someone like Vuc would be more in demand if they lost Barnes. It's hard to compare Vlade and Vuc IMO. Vuc isn't terrible but Vlade was one of the best post defenders in the last 25 years. He was a tremendously impactful intangibles guy. We've seen Vuc in situations where his role was lessened and he was a different player altogether.
 
Well, what would you guys think if we sign Horford to a 4y/$112m contract?

It'll be a pretty big risk for his age but his influence is still very prominent and it'd be invaluable to have him mentor Giles and Bagley.
 
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KainLear said:
Well, what would you guys think if we sign Horford to a 4y/$112m contract?

It'll be a pretty big risk for his age but his influence is still very prominent and it'd be invaluable to have him mentor Giles and Bagley.
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I’d like him more than Vuc. He’ll be the perfect mentor to our young bigs, and in a season or two when Giles is ready to explode onto the scene as the undisputed starter I don’t think he’d mind taking the backup role.
 
It seems unfathomable to me that Horford would be looking to sign his last real contract with the Kings, but I would sure take him. He's such a smart player and can adapt to fill basically any role on offense or defense, so he would allow Bagley to focus on his strengths while he fills out the rest of his game. I think both young guys would really flourish playing next to him and learning from him. Horford's game is a particularly suitable template for Giles to follow.
 
NME said:
It seems unfathomable to me that Horford would be looking to sign his last real contract with the Kings, but I would sure take him. He's such a smart player and can adapt to fill basically any role on offense or defense, so he would allow Bagley to focus on his strengths while he fills out the rest of his game. I think both young guys would really flourish playing next to him and learning from him. Horford's game is a particularly suitable template for Giles to follow.
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If Horford was 3 years younger, it would be a no brainer for me to be honest. I still wouldn't mind him but that would depend on the $$$ and more importantly the length of the deal. Would be a superb mentor for Bagley and Giles and overall just a great glue guy to have on the team.
 
Surprised no one brought it up yet but the Kings, along with Philly, are specifically mentioned as suitors for Horford.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27053873/what-warriors-do-keep-team-together

“In addition to teams such as the Dallas Mavericks and New Orleans Pelicans, who instantly emerged as possible landing spots, league sources say there are a few surprise bidders who are trying to land the veteran big man. These include the Sacramento Kings and Philadelphia 76ers.

The Kings are interested in adding a center this offseason, and there's space for them to do it even with re-signing Harrison Barnes. It would require them to move on from Willie Cauley-Stein, who wants that anyway, as his agent has asked the Kings to let him go.

They'd potentially have the room to make an aggressive offer to Horford, but they have a number of the top centers on their list, sources said. In addition to Horford, the Kings could chase Brook Lopez and Nikola Vucevic. Lopez played for coach Luke Walton with the Lakers.”
 
well if we are seriously looking at Beverly i would lean toward us looking at Lopez harder. also says we are looking at Tobias Harris.. Id imagine if we are smart we are looking at all possibilities so we will see several articles with out names mentioned as potential suitors
 
The problem with Horford is that he's already past his peak so we'd have no choice but to overpay for past performance. Generally speaking that's something that financially prudent teams avoid. Chance of serious injury is high and you're also looking at a high likelihood of declining performance as early as year 2 of his next contract just due to wear and tear....

On the other hand, in terms of overall skill-set and potential locker room presence there's probably not a better fit for us this summer than Al Horford. He checks all the boxes as a smart defender, a team-first player who plays within himself, a PF/C who can step out and space the floor and also function as a secondary playmaker (4.6 APG average his three years in Boston) and take some pressure off the guards. I thought he would have been a perfect compliment to Cousins a few years ago and he'd work just as well next to Bagley I think for a lot of the same reasons.

Clint Capela is significantly younger and provides a more traditional bigman game with his huge rebounding numbers, elite shot-blocking potential (second in the league in BPG a year ago) and a potentially potent lob connection with Mr. Fox but I wouldn't be mad if we made Horford our target either simply because the knowledge he could pass on to the young guys and his steadying presence as a respected veteran with 11 years (!!!) of playoff experience is impossible to place a value on.
 
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