Hey Professor: What does "toughness" mean?

NoBonus

NoBonus

Starter
I have been over-thinking this, but when the Kings drafted Brockman, Casspi, and Evans, the Kings gained a lot of "toughness", but what exactly does that mean? It seems vague to me... it could mean any and all of the following plus more:

Toughness:

Hustles
plays dirty
mental toughness(unshakable)
likes physical contact
plays through injuries
rebounds
plays defense
never backs down
gets in fights


What do you think?
 
those are things that players should be doing anyways, besides playing dirty and getting into fights..

It's more about hustling and stepping up to a challenge that and the ability to be undeterred by heated moments..
 
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NoBonus said:
I have been over-thinking this, but when the Kings drafted Brockman, Casspi, and Evans, the Kings gained a lot of "toughness", but what exactly does that mean? It seems vague to me... it could mean any and all of the following plus more:

Toughness:

Hustles
plays dirty
mental toughness(unshakable)
likes physical contact
plays through injuries
rebounds
plays defense
never backs down
gets in fights


What do you think?
Click to expand...

To me, toughness has nothing to do with fights or playing dirty. It has to do with heart. Having no quit in you no matter what the score. Not being afraid of contact. It also has to do with mental toughness and playing smart. Not being afraid of contact and fouling out of every game doesn't help anyone. Playing defense is obvious. Playing through injuries is overrated in my opinion. There are times when I would rather have a player sit down, for how ever long it takes to heal, than to play at 70% of his capacity all year long. It might look heroic, but I'm not sure if it helps the team in the long run.

I would like to add that I'm not talking about a player that comes into camp out of shape and then gets injured. I don't want him to play through his injuries either. I don't want him to play at all.
 
"Plays dirty" and "gets in fights" definitely doesn't belong in the list, at least not in my list.

Good tough players don't have to play dirty or get in fights.
 
Toughness to me is pretty self explanatory.

You know it when you see it much like you know when you see someone playing soft.
 
VF21 said:
"Plays dirty" and "gets in fights" definitely doesn't belong in the list, at least not in my list.

Good tough players don't have to play dirty or get in fights.
Click to expand...


But they certainly might. When toughness overflows that's where it spills toward.
 
NoBonus said:
I have been over-thinking this, but when the Kings drafted Brockman, Casspi, and Evans, the Kings gained a lot of "toughness", but what exactly does that mean? It seems vague to me... it could mean any and all of the following plus more:

Toughness:

Hustles
plays dirty
mental toughness(unshakable)
likes physical contact
plays through injuries
rebounds
plays defense
never backs down
gets in fights


What do you think?
Click to expand...

As an aside, these are the core things, the others are somewhat derivative:

Hustles
plays dirty
mental toughness(unshakable)
likes physical contact
plays through injuries
rebounds
plays defense
never backs down
gets in fights
 
Well, I don't know what kind of toughness Brockman and Evans are going to bring to the team, but about Casspi --

He hustles, jumps on every loose ball, he goes strong for the rebounds, doesn't take sh*t from nobody, never gives up, plays defense.
He's not afraid of physical contact at all, he'll go hard for the dunk even if it means he'll get beat up on the way up.

He doesn't play dirty, but he can trash-talk pretty well I guess.
He's also pretty extroverted on the court. He'll talk, he'll scream, whatever he feels like at any given moment -- which often pisses off players of the other team.
 
For mental toughness I would break it down even further. To me the mental thoughness means:

- Does not get intimidated by certain opponents
- Does not lose temper on court b/c of trash talk
- Does not get overly engaged with the officials and let it affect his game
- Does not fall apart when the other team goes on a run or the game feels like it could slip away
- Does not fall apart or stop playing team ball as the team goes on a losing streak or the season feels like it's slipping away
- Does not fall apart when criticized appropiratley by the coach or other team mates
 
Toughness is simply one word....EFFORT....if you give 100% of your effort on BOTH the defensive and offensive end then there is nothing more you can ask.....

....except for fairness from the NBA and REFS. :)

...and no more injuries.
 
btw Circa you need to change back to your old avatar. I just realized I associate people more with their avatars than i do their nicknames. :)
 
Hustle, muscling opposing players in the paint, the ability to force penetration etc.

Lets be honest Kevin Martin is not going to muscle other players, Beno is not going to musle other players nor Kenny Thomas. Spencer Hawes and Jason Thompson are more finnesse players although Spencer has his moments in the paint. The Kings have not been very good at "penetrating" better defensive teams.

All our new additions are known for being aggressive and tough. Cassipi is a tough aggressive player. Brockman basically an NFL sized guy who just brawls for rebounds, And Tyreke Evans who is probably going to outsize most every PG he faces. Plus Evans can penetrate and wreak all sorts of havoc opening up a teams defense.
 
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Toughness:

Protects team mates
Hustles
plays hard
mental toughness(unshakable)
likes physical contact
rebounds
plays defense
Stand's up to the leagues bullies while not getting ejected
 
Winning teams invariably have a don't-back-down mentality and one or two hard nosed enforcers. DC was tough.
 
Toughness = Mitch Richmond prior to 1997-98. MJ once said that Mitch played him tougher that any SG in the league (this was about 1994-95).
 
Tough players don't look both ways before going for a loose ball.
Tough players don't care what the score is, or what the team's record is, they will just continue to play hard.
Tough players don't whine.
Tough players don't make excuses.
Tough players don't point fingers at anyone other than themselves.
Tough players take the game personally.
 
rg_norris_narrowweb__300x382,2.jpg
 
Anybody can be tough with two guns in their hands.

This guy, however, will take you down with a ballpoint pen... or paper clip... or just rip out your jugular with his teeth. And don't even get me started on what he can do with a cell phone:

JackBauer.jpg
 
Jay Bilas had a great short blog item on ESPN defining toughness in colledge basketball last season and then a longer article he wrote after getting so much positive feedback from college coaches.

If you don't have ESPN insider the essential gyst is toughness comes from playing the right way and not taking short cuts. Playing with both energy and discipline basically.

Some examples he listed:
- Closing out to a shooter under control
- Setting up your man and making hard cuts
- Sticking with your team's defensive principles, and doing it under pressure.
- Throwing the pass that leads to the assist.

So maybe a guy like Rip Hamilton who because of his slight frame you don't think of him as a tough player, but he really is. He's an extremely tough oppponent because of how strictly he plays to fundamentals.


He wrote it for college basketball, but I think it applies to the NBA too.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3820342&name=bilas_jay

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/insider/columns/story?columnist=bilas_jay&id=3868904
 
hammystyle said:
Jay Bilas had a great short blog item on ESPN defining toughness in colledge basketball last season and then a longer article he wrote after getting so much positive feedback from college coaches.

If you don't have ESPN insider the essential gyst is toughness comes from playing the right way and not taking short cuts. Playing with both energy and discipline basically.

Some examples he listed:
- Closing out to a shooter under control
- Setting up your man and making hard cuts
- Sticking with your team's defensive principles, and doing it under pressure.
- Throwing the pass that leads to the assist.

So maybe a guy like Rip Hamilton who because of his slight frame you don't think of him as a tough player, but he really is. He's an extremely tough oppponent because of how strictly he plays to fundamentals.


He wrote it for college basketball, but I think it applies to the NBA too.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3820342&name=bilas_jay

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/insider/columns/story?columnist=bilas_jay&id=3868904
Click to expand...

Those things have nothing to do with toughness. Discipline, yes. Unselfishnes, possibly. Might make you a "tough oppponent". But that's an entirely separate meaning of the word.

And coaches are always going to laud people who do what they ask of them with whatever label they can. Under that rubric Peja Stojakovic was tough. Allowing nonsense redefintions like that essentialy renders the intiial word, which everybody understands intrinsically, worthless as an identifier. And after reading Bilas's lengthy rambling list, I am even more convinced of that. He has everything and the kitchen sink thrown in there -- smart play, tough play, unselfish play -- those are NOT all synonyms.
 
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Bricklayer said:
Those things have nothing to do with toughness. Discipline, yes. Unselfishnes, possibly. Might make you a "tough oppponent". But that's an entirely separate meaning of the word.

And coaches are always going to laud people who do what they ask of them with whatever label they can. Under that rubric Peja Stojakovic was tough. Allowing nonsense redefintions like that essentialy renders the intiial word, which everybody understands intrinsically, worthless as an identifier. And after reading Bilas's lengthy rambling list, I am even more convinced of that. He has everything and the kitchen sink thrown in there -- smart play, tough play, unselfish play -- those are NOT all synonyms.
Click to expand...

Its a way of looking at it for the guys who aren't Charles Oakley, though that more recognizable brand of toughness certainly has its place.

Its just one way of answering the question that started the thread.
 
hammystyle said:
So maybe a guy like Rip Hamilton who because of his slight frame you don't think of him as a tough player, but he really is. He's an extremely tough oppponent because of how strictly he plays to fundamentals.


He wrote it for college basketball, but I think it applies to the NBA too.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3820342&name=bilas_jay

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/insider/columns/story?columnist=bilas_jay&id=3868904
Click to expand...

I agree with Bricky on this one. You can call that kind of player fundamental sound or well disciplined, but not tough. I would also point out that a player doesn't have to look like Charles Oakley to be considered tough. Reggie Miller, John Stockton, and Jeff Hornacek were all tough players IMO, but weren't big muscular players. Toughness is a state of mind, not a physical attribute.
 
Telemachus said:
I agree with Bricky on this one. You can call that kind of player fundamental sound or well disciplined, but not tough. I would also point out that a player doesn't have to look like Charles Oakley to be considered tough. Reggie Miller, John Stockton, and Jeff Hornacek were all tough players IMO, but weren't big muscular players. Toughness is a state of mind, not a physical attribute.
Click to expand...

I think those three guys are the embodiment of what Bilas is espousing. The toughness is the state of mind, and the focus to execute the fundamental correct play under pressure and duress.
 
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