Hawes Future Great or Bust

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sactownfan

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After watching all the summer league games and last nights game against Portland. I couldn't help but be bummed on the idea that Hawes just isn't really
showing any improvement. Someone mentioned that he opted out of working with the kings trainer before camp opened up? i dont wanna jump on him if thats not true but wither its true or not Hawes looks so slow and un-athletic, and if he did opt out. Then i would ride his *** like no other if i was Reggie, thats just unacceptable!

See the problem is... going into his rookie season Hawes talked about "i need to add muscle, and i need to work on quickness, ect". Hawes knows his weaknesses and so there's NO EXCUSES! but he comes into summer league, training camp, and preseason looking just ridiculous... getting burned bad all around. He made such a fuss about having to run the whole court 10 times in a row, one time if he passed(which he finally did the first time)

Im gonna go ahead and call it now... Hawes at best will be a role player, he has the B-Ball IQ to be great, but he just doesn't have the tools to be good. Hes so young right now so the fact hes already so worried about his knees/pain/and injury is a horrible place to be... he did also say that he had some discomfort during the test.... so along with thinking/ worrying about pain hes actually feeling it to a degree... not good... plus he looks the same as he did last year with his body fat and size... you think if you were getting paid millions of dollars you'd be able to get yourself in amazing shape.

He could become an avg center in the league or even "good" player put i think he's going to be more of a role player... I'd like to see us for once, land a real 5 that can actually jump/run/block shots and rebound! Plus workout! I can't handle watching Miller or Miller 2.0(Hawes) for the next 5 or 6 years!
 
You say Miller 2.0 but when Miller is playing up to his potential he is better than 80% of the centers out there..

Blocking/rebounding is overrated anyway.. Doesn't do you much good if the player cannot defend or score a little. Give Hawes a chance.. This is his first training camp, and it seems after one game there are a lot of people jumping on him which are the same people that would have been praising him prematurely if he had a good game last night.
 
Sure Miller 2.0 was just a saying... in reality Hawes has nothing near the offense yet, and is worse at defense... that is compaired to Miller... so yeah hes nothing like miller other than they both don't like to workout.
 
Gary said:
You say Miller 2.0 but when Miller is playing up to his potential he is better than 80% of the centers out there..

Blocking/rebounding is overrated anyway.. Doesn't do you much good if the player cannot defend or score a little. Give Hawes a chance.. This is his first training camp, and it seems after one game there are a lot of people jumping on him which are the same people that would have been praising him prematurely if he had a good game last night.
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While I agree that it's way too premature to write off Hawes because of one preseason game, he certainly has been exposed. Hawes' defense was atrocious since the summer league, giving up way too much room against Oden and rotating in a lackadaisical and lazy manner. Reggie says there was a long film session in today's practice and I sincerely hope that Hawes' apathetic attitude on that end was one of the focuses. Again, it's still way too early, but we can't just assume radical improvement from Spencer at that end and have to consider the possibility that he may just be a horrible defender.

But to the OP (and anyone jumping off the deep end), this is premature.
 
sactownfan said:
Sure Miller 2.0 was just a saying... in reality Hawes has nothing near the offense yet, and is worse at defense... that is compaired to Miller... so yeah hes nothing like miller other than they both don't like to workout.
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Yeah he doesn't have the jumpshot or passing IQ of Miller. He has post moves but what's the point of that if he can't get position on any other centers? He doesn't rebound as well as Miller either.
 
Just keep this thread in mind. I think Spencer is going to prove a lot of people wrong. Just keep watching, at the end of this year lets revisit this thread. :cool:
 
it is a bit early to call him out. i'd give him until his 3rd year to prove himself. otherwise, i'm gonna say put his *** on the trading block. he needs to add some muscle to handle some of the bigs in the league. oden is a beast that not alot of centers will be able to deal with soon. the guy is freaking 280 lbs. i believe he has 50 lbs over spencer right now. spencer was listed at 230 lbs which is the weight of most small forwards in the league.

there is tom grover who helped players gain strength without gaining too much weight. he might want to hit him up.
 
Gary said:
You say Miller 2.0 but when Miller is playing up to his potential he is better than 80% of the centers out there..

Blocking/rebounding is overrated anyway.. Doesn't do you much good if the player cannot defend or score a little. Give Hawes a chance.. This is his first training camp, and it seems after one game there are a lot of people jumping on him which are the same people that would have been praising him prematurely if he had a good game last night.
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"Blocking/rebounding" is the absolute core of the big man game. It is like saying assisting is overrated for PGs or scoring for scoring guards. Championships can be, and have been, won by big men who can do nothing but. Few indeed by teams without somebody pretty serious at those aspects out there.
 
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Lets just say im more high on thompson and greene than with hawes...Its up to him if he wants his future to be better,he is still 20 and alot of things to learn...To say he is brad 2.0 is not a good example,brad on his prime was a tough player who rebounds and knows his shot selection.

What happened with that hook shot he was working on? is that another name for jumpshots
 
Hawes is 20. He isn't anything yet, except clearly not as good as Greg Oden. Sure, he had a horrible game, but he's about seven years from his prime as an NBA player. It takes time.
 
Felt the same about Hawes pre-draft as the way I do now.

Max Ceiling: 16 pts/8 reb/3 ast
Mid-Range: 12 pts/5 reb/1.5 ast

I don't think that he'll ever be a good rebounder or shotblocker, he just doesn't have that DNA in him. For that reason, I wish we would've chosen someone else last year...but he can be a good asset if we have a strong PF or if he backs up a stronger center. Once he gets more strength/experience, he's got a great set of post/passing/shooting skills. But then again, isn't that the skillset of swingman?

He is young, so I'm willing (aka try my best!) to give him the benefit of the doubt if he tanks this season...but I don't think this is a guy who's going to be an all-star or a championship-caliber center.
 
Judging by this years summer league and the first preseason game?

Complete and utter bust.

He can however change my mind if he decides to pickup a weight, learn the meaning of the word Defense and stop taking 20 ft jumpshots that he has no chance to make.
 
Mark Blount anyone? this guy was the ultimate question mark(no pun intended LOL) this guy was in great shape good offensive game... but could never get rebounds or play any kind of defense... AGAIN AS SLOW AS HAWES LOOKS OUT THERE ITS SCARY!
 
Dunno if he'll be a bust or a decent player.

I dont think he's the type of C I want on the Kings. But unfortunately I think we're going to have to get a new GM before we get a big who isnt 'finesse'.

I'm not going to judge him against Oden (there's a reason Greg went 1 and Spencer went 10)...BUT at his weight, and with his strength he's going to get thrown around by 9 out of 10 C's in the league. Sure he's 20, but still...It seems like his offense will grow while his D and rebounding will max out at mediocre.
 
Tad early to throw him under the bus based on GAME ONE OF THE PRESEASON (see? another time where shouty caps are appropriate). That said, I felt his likely deficiencies as a rebounder and defender were, or at least should have been, pretty obvious to any non-biased observer when he was coming out of college. What remains more problematic is the immaturity of his offensive game. The constant rushing, lousy shot selection, tendency to shoot anything and everything as soon as the ball hits his hands. For a smart guy (just ask him) he plays a very dumb, unsettled game. Whether he's a player or not in this league isn't going to depend on things that he never had any chance to be better than mediocre at (defense, rebounding), but on whether he grows up, settles down, toughens up, and begins operating with a plan to maximize his considerable offensive talent. Physical limitations or not, you stick Tim Duncan's brain in Spencer's body, with Spencer's talent, and you have yourself a player.
 
No way we give up on him yet...as soon as we do I know he is gonna turn into Chris Kaman or Dirk Nowitzki or something. Lets keep him for a few more years. He impressed me alot last year during certain games notably the one involving us beating the Lakers, which im sure you all remember. Lets not get down on him, he needs a little criticism to make him work harder but we can't bash on him so that he gives up hope.
 
totally unrelated, but did anybody notice boston picking up patrick o'bryant? I wouldnt have mind having him in camp. Another 7 footer with some athletic abiilty.
 
While I admit that the Portland game was a little disconcerting, he's still far too young/inexperienced to give up on. When we drafted him, he was considered a 'project' player, who wasn't supposed to make huge contributions for 3-4 seasons. Now, the dire situation of the Kings' front court means he may get thrown into the mix a little earlier then previously expected, but don't expect him to really figure things out for a while.

Now, I don't think he'll ever be a great shot-blocker/rebounder, but that was pretty apparent when we drafted him. The hope is that he can develop to be at least serviceable in these areas. My main concern is that we're going to end up with too many pure scorers (Martin, Hawes, Greene), and not enough well-rounded guys. Let's hope that Greene/Thompson can develop their all around games, especially in terms of defense and rebounding, to help cover up these deficiencies at other positions.
 
Bricklayer said:
Tad early to throw him under the bus based on GAME ONE OF THE PRESEASON (see? another time where shouty caps are appropriate). That said, I felt his likely deficiencies as a rebounder and defender were, or at least should have been, pretty obvious to any non-biased observer when he was coming out of college. What remains more problematic is the immaturity of his offensive game. The constant rushing, lousy shot selection, tendency to shoot anything and everything as soon as the ball hits his hands. For a smart guy (just ask him) he plays a very dumb, unsettled game. Whether he's a player or not in this league isn't going to depend on things that he never had any chance to be better than mediocre at (defense, rebounding), but on whether he grows up, settles down, toughens up, and begins operating with a plan to maximize his considerable offensive talent. Physical limitations or not, you stick Tim Duncan's brain in Spencer's body, with Spencer's talent, and you have yourself a player.
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Isn't Spencer known for his offensive repertoire? I didn't catch his performance, but could it have been nerves? Maybe he was a little rusty? Or as I read somewhere, was he just trying to do too much and not sticking to his strengths?

Granted it is preseason, maybe it was just a bad game for Spence.
 
i wouldnt jump on him just yet.. hes 20 years old and all that, im not making any excuses for the man but the fact that he pursued his studies first if i recall he DID earn a degree or something tells me he is one dedicated guy. with that monkey off his back im guessing he will be focusing on whats at hand soon...

its not fair of judging a guy and sentencing him to be a bust or great after a few games off the bat... give him 3 or 4 years and well evaluate what we have

2 or three bad games dont make a bust... yet i mean im pretty sure there are threads out there years ago how martin, peja,Arenas and even redd... saying they were no good... again we cant tell its criticisms like these that will make a player who they will be in years to come... if Spence is man enough i bet he will be one of those players wed want on our team.. else if he doesnt back up his mental toughness and wit hell be di-SPENCE-able to the team lol

heres to the 08-09 season :D
 
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I'm not very impressed with him at all. Yea, I know he is young. When he declined to do the condition test, I thought he should be grateful that he is in the NBA and listen on how to get better. I think he is shooting way too many jumpers and not getting in the paint.

There's an article in the bee this morning regarding Hawes plays concerning the coach and teammate.

I don't want him to be a bust so I hope he can adjust and be a good player that everyone is hoping he will be.
 
It's a silly question. Wait for three years when he's an old man at 23 years old and then you might be able to gauge how good he's going to be. I saw enough glimmers last year to make believe that he could be very good. I'm not going to throw out last year because of the first pre-season game this year. Hawes could stink up the joint for this entire year at this point and I wouldn't write him off. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen a rookie have a lousy sophomore year. Hawes, and the rest of the youngins, are going to have MAJOR growing pains over the next couple of years. Thompson is going to DISAPPEAR on some nights. I can hear the complaints already - "He's got to get stronger!" Greene is going to look awful or not even get off the bench on several nights. Let's have this conversation in 2011. Until then, just get used it.
 
sactownfan said:
... plus he looks the same as he did last year with his body fat and size...
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We can argue about how good he'll be, but at least be fair. He has worked to improve his body.

Recently, Geoff Petrie said Hawes was in the best shape he's ever seen him, in the flap over the conditioning test.

From 2 summer league Bee articles:

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/1095562.html

Since returning to his native Seattle in late April, he has been working with a conditioning coach to strengthen his core, improve his balance and continue reshaping his physique. He has dropped his body fat below 10 percent and toned his upper body, all without sacrificing balance and flexibility.

The change is most apparent in his muscled, once ill-defined upper arms; he's no Karl Malone, but he's no Vlade Divac, either.
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http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/1078085.html

Onlookers at UNLV will see a 7-footer who's a bit more toned and perhaps that much tougher. Hawes said he dropped body fat and added muscle while maintaining his weight during these summer months, answering the organization's call to do just that by becoming a weight room regular while back home in Seattle.
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I will admit not liking what I've seen from Hawes yet. I agree with Brick's assessment. He's playing stupidly and probably thinking about things too much out there. I also think Hawes may suffer from thinking he's better than he actually is, at this point. A little humility might not hurt.

On the other hand, he just turned 20 and there is an enormous amout of ground between "bust" or "great." Maybe he won't be either. However, if both stay healthy, I'm not going to label Hawes a bust, if he is never as good as Oden. Most centers were never as good as Shaq in his prime either. That doesn't mean they are all busts.

If the Kings ever get a superstar (or close), franchise-type player, maybe all we need is for Hawes to be good enough.
 
AusKing said:
Isn't Spencer known for his offensive repertoire? I didn't catch his performance, but could it have been nerves? Maybe he was a little rusty? Or as I read somewhere, was he just trying to do too much and not sticking to his strengths?

Granted it is preseason, maybe it was just a bad game for Spence.
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There was a very good article about Spencer's struggles in the Bee today:
http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/1300213.html

Very good in that you got quotes from various team members and Spencer himself about it.

Beno talked about how he never knows where to find him with the pass, about how Spencer says he wants to be a post guy, but then always scurries on out to the perimeter to chuck jumpers. That actually tracks too with something I noticed in that first game, but chalked up to maybe just first preseason game sloppiness -- in addition to all the other problems, we probably had at least 3-4 turnovers from guards trying to feed Spencer and just missing. If nobody, including Spencer himself, really knows where he is going to be or really wants to be, then that would obviously make it harder to hit him with the pass.

Mikki talked about how Spencer lets the defense dictate what he does, and again, seemed spot on. Spencer would probably try to argue -- and one gets the impression he likes to debate -- that he is just playing "smart" and trying not to attack the other guy's strengths. But the difference between smart and soft is a pretty fine line, and the fact is that the first time somebody applies a beefy forearm chuck to his back, Spencer just runs away to the perimeter. A great player dictates the offensive action and flow, he does not let the defense tell him how he's going to play. I think the single best thing you could do for Spencer right now is go out and hire some big *** Odenesque thug -- not even a great talent. Just a big ole knock your on your butt thug. Hey -- what's Danny Fortson doing nowadays (although he's too short to really do the job right)? In any case, hire a big thug to practice against Spencer, tell Spencer to get his *** in the post, and blow the whistle to start play. Everytime Spencer settled for a jumper, have him run 5 suicides. Then tell him to get his *** back in the post for more work. Have the thug beat on him mercilessly, but have Spencer post and post and post and post until he was black and blue and used up every move in his repetoire. Then come back and do it the next day. Because the truth is I think Spencer felt Oden's power inside and got a little gun shy (nice way of saying scared). He needs to get determined to use his skills inside regardless of the competition, or having them is useless.

Mikki also mentioned that Spencer has to quit trying to impress and just settle down and play. That too was spot on -- Spencer seems determined that he's going to wow everyone by being such a special player that he can post and shoot threes and everything in bewteeen, and a chance to go against Oden probably had him especially hyped. But as a result he has no plan, no organized gameplan, and he throws shots up every time he touches the ball without any attempt to slow down, think, set people up or anything. He never works hard in the post, moving a guy around, setting him up for the move. He just catches the ball and throws up the first thing that comes to mind. Always in such a rush to impress. Always trying to prove he's things he's not.

And of course finally you had the quote from Spencer saying that the answer was for him to just keep shooting it. Which I think is indicative of a number of the problems right now. That's Spencer's solution to everything, and oddly he seems trapped in a shooting guard's mentality where he thinks that that is actually going to impress people. He's got talent, but he really needs to get a clue here. His physical limitations will always keep him from excelling at certain aspects of the game, but its more of his mental approach which seems to be holding him back right now.
 
Bricklayer said:
There was a very good article about Spencer's struggles in the Bee today:
http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/1300213.html



Mikki also mentioned that Spencer has to quit trying to impress and just settle down and play. That too was spot on -- Spencer seems determined that he's going to wow everyone by being such a special player that he can post and shoot threes and everything in bewteeen, and a chance to go against Oden probably had him especially hyped. But as a result he has no plan, no organized gameplan, and he throws shots up every time he touches the ball without any attempt to slow down, think, set people up or anything. He never works hard in the post, moving a guy around, setting him up for the move. He just catches the ball and throws up the first thing that comes to mind. Always in such a rush to impress. Always trying to prove he's things he's not.
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I think this part is spot on. I did not get to see the game on Tuesday (darn DVR error), but I had that distinct impression in all of the summer league games. Spencer would get the ball in a bad position and instead of passing back out and reposting or finding a teammate with a good mismatch, he would fling up some wild shots or force some bad passes. At times, it looked like he already had his mind made up about how he was going to shoot regardless of how many defenders the other team had on him. I think he needs to settle down and let the game come to him and to contribute to the team instead of worrying about impressing people or justifying his draft position. Post, repost, fight for position/rebounds, keep the ball moving and drift the the peremiter or force bad post moves.
 
Bricklayer said:
His physical limitations will always keep him from excelling at certain aspects of the game, but its more of his mental approach which seems to be holding him back right now.
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I couldn't agree more. I was also pleasantly surprised to see the candor of his teammates in that article. I get the impression that the organization is willing to give him time to grow, but his attitude and opinionated ways are starting to rub some the wrong way. I honestly don't expect him to have a huge year, but I'd like to see him tone down his act a little and pay his dues. If he was a breakout rookie last year, we'd say things have gone to his head, but he hasen't really done anything to prove his worth at this point (other than being the beneficiary of Miller's 5 game suspension to start the season.) In general, it seems that he might just be a little bit of an arrogant know-it-all regardless of his profession.
 
I said after the game that Hawes looked as though he was thinking about everything he was going to do, instead of just reacting. He's 20 yr's old, and playing with new teammates and now learning a new system. I know he thinks he's a smart guy, but sometimes, I think his brain gets in his way.

I don't think he'll ever be 10 plus rebound a game guy, but if he can play within himself, and take whats there, I think he can average close to 8 boards a game and 14 to 15 points a game. With the right people around him, that would be enough. Its not going to happen overnight, and its silly to make any judgements on his future based on one pre-season game.

I'm not saying that people can't or shouldn't be critical of the here and now. I'am saying, that to take that criticism and proclaim it as an indictment of a young players future is ridiculous.
 
If you guys want us to have a championship team, you don't want to pin your hopes on Hawes as our future starting center. The odds of Hawes becoming a top caliber center is just not too high. At the most, Hawes will be very good as a back-up center.

All we need to do is to open our eyes and be objective in watching Hawes' games and be very practical on evaluating this Kids' physical and psychological limitations.

This Kid is just too weak and slow to play against the top BIGS in the league. He wants to excell in offense rather than in defense. He is physically and mentally not built for the center position. He will always be pushed around and not be able to defend very well against the known bigs in the NBA. Also, his previous injury will always be a concern for himself and the whole team.

Come on guys, this is not hard to see, except when you are romantically in-love, or you have a terrible crush on this Kid ( lol )

Do we want to build a championship team, or just a mediocre team?

If we want a championship team, then Hawes is a bust as a future center for the Kings.

If we just want a mediocre team, then put your hopes on Hawes.



.
 
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Great or bust? Nothing in between?

I don't think he'll be great, or even very good, but I don't think he'll be a total bust unless his knees wear out. I think he'll be about what you expect of a big picked at #10.

Bigs picked from 8-12 between summer 2000 and Hawes:

Amare Stoudemire ) Just... no. No comparison with these guys.
Andrew Bynum )
------------------
Nick Collison ) This range is where I figure best case works out to.
Chris Wilcox )
Andris Biedrins )
Joel Przybilla )
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Etan Thomas )
DeSagana Diop ) Somewhere in this batch is where I see him as
Melvin Ely ) most likely to end up. After all, this is average for his pick.
Vladimir Radmanovic )
Ike Diogu )
Robert Swift )
Mouhamed Sene )
Rafael Araujo )
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Patrick O'Bryant ) But then there's the knee failure possibility.
Michael Sweetney )

Instead of "Great" or "Bust," can I choose "Blah"?
 
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